What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[GaryA]

You don't seem to get my point at all. The bible says Jesus paid the penalty we deserved with HIS DEATH. Romans says the "Wages of sin is death." Matthew says "....that whosoever believes in Him should not PERISH."

So if you truly believe that Eternal Torment is the punishment and NOT death, then you are denying Christ paid our penalty by His death.

Why is that so hard to understand?

You are conflating the 'judgement' and the 'punishment'.

The two are totally different things.

If a judge declares:

"You have been found guilty; you stand convicted."

Whatever the punishment is for the crime, it is a separate thing than the conviction.

The price Jesus had to pay to redeem us was for the purpose of "overturning" the conviction - and, has nothing whatsoever (directly) to do with the punishment.

We are "hidden in Christ" so that we are not "found guilty" and "stand convicted" - and, it is "paid for" with His blood.

There was no necessity for what Jesus experienced on the cross to reflect precisely the punishment of those who would not accept the free gift made available because of what He accomplished on the cross.

People will be thrown into hell and the lake of fire because they refuse the free gift!

There is no direct correlation between what Jesus suffered on the cross and what those who refuse the free gift made available by His sacrifice will experience as punishment for not accepting the free gift.

If you sin:

~ Without Christ, you are found guilty and stand convicted.

~ With Christ, you are not found guilty by virtue of Christ taking your conviction upon Himself.

Punishment is a separate issue in the "big picture" of God's system of Judgement.

The 'Wrath of God' is a punishment for the wicked - did Christ suffer all of that (specifically) while on the cross?

Of course not.

Again, people go to hell because of their lack of belief, faith, and trust in God/Christ - not because they stole a car.

The notion that Jesus would have to "take the punishment" forever to "pay the penalty" for us - versus - the lost in the lake of fire in torment - is mixing apples and oranges in a fruit basket of error.

When Romans says the wages of sin is death, 'death' is the conviction and not the punishment.

It is referring to a 'spiritual' death and not a 'physical' death.

Likewise are other words like 'perish' in their context referring to the conviction and not the punishment.

In Revelation 14:11, the "smoke of their torment" is a form of glorification of God.

God has made it so that every individual will 'glorify' God forever - whether voluntary or involuntary - and, it is the choice of each individual.

 

[Laura798]

You are conflating the 'judgement' and the 'punishment'.

The two are totally different things.

If a judge declares:

"You have been found guilty; you stand convicted."

Whatever the punishment is for the crime, it is a separate thing than the conviction.

The price Jesus had to pay to redeem us was for the purpose of "overturning" the conviction - and, has nothing whatsoever (directly) to do with the punishment.

We are "hidden in Christ" so that we are not "found guilty" and "stand convicted" - and, it is "paid for" with His blood.

There was no necessity for what Jesus experienced on the cross to reflect precisely the punishment of those who would not accept the free gift made available because of what He accomplished on the cross.

People will be thrown into hell and the lake of fire because they refuse the free gift!

There is no direct correlation between what Jesus suffered on the cross and what those who refuse the free gift made available by His sacrifice will experience as punishment for not accepting the free gift.

If you sin:

~ Without Christ, you are found guilty and stand convicted.

~ With Christ, you are not found guilty by virtue of Christ taking your conviction upon Himself.

Punishment is a separate issue in the "big picture" of God's system of Judgement.

The 'Wrath of God' is a punishment for the wicked - did Christ suffer all of that (specifically) while on the cross?

Of course not.

Again, people go to hell because of their lack of belief, faith, and trust in God/Christ - not because they stole a car.

The notion that Jesus would have to "take the punishment" forever to "pay the penalty" for us - versus - the lost in the lake of fire in torment - is mixing apples and oranges in a fruit basket of error.

When Romans says the wages of sin is death, 'death' is the conviction and not the punishment.

It is referring to a 'spiritual' death and not a 'physical' death.

Likewise are other words like 'perish' in their context referring to the conviction and not the punishment.

In Revelation 14:11, the "smoke of their torment" is a form of glorification of God.

God has made it so that every individual will 'glorify' God forever - whether voluntary or involuntary - and, it is the choice of each individual.

Gary, please see my post #336 Exegesis vs Eisegesis

ALL of what you have written is your own interpretation--you didn't use any bible verses to support your position and are using Eisegesis vs Exegesis--as I always say, let Scripture defend itself. AND test Scripture with Scripture An argument based on your own ideas is no argument at all.

Are you not familiar with these verses?

1. "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23
2 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."--John 3:16
3. "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1st John 2:2
4. "Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."--1st Timothy 2:6
5. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.."--John 3:36

And there are so many more on his substitutionary death as well as LITERAL verses that say man's end is DESTRUCTION.

Please look at the previous posts--there are a mountain of verses that say man's end is death/destruction, compared to the relatively few that the other side uses to support conscious eternal torment--ALL of which use figurative and NOT literal language.

There's no reasoning with those who argue from their own viewpoint.

 

[GaryA]

I'm having a hard time comprehending why some Christians believe our Heavenly Father would torture His creation for all eternity. Is it even conceivable to some of you that a benevolent merciful God would do anything that UNmerciful? Think of the never-ending screaming! Is that the kind of thing a parent would do to his child? Not a chance; there’s no way.

First of all, they are not His children.

The answer to your first sentence - because He is righteous!

And, all of His creation will glorify Him forever - because He is God.

 

[Laura798]

You are conflating the 'judgement' and the 'punishment'.

The two are totally different things.

If a judge declares:

"You have been found guilty; you stand convicted."

Whatever the punishment is for the crime, it is a separate thing than the conviction.

The price Jesus had to pay to redeem us was for the purpose of "overturning" the conviction - and, has nothing whatsoever (directly) to do with the punishment.

We are "hidden in Christ" so that we are not "found guilty" and "stand convicted" - and, it is "paid for" with His blood.

There was no necessity for what Jesus experienced on the cross to reflect precisely the punishment of those who would not accept the free gift made available because of what He accomplished on the cross.

People will be thrown into hell and the lake of fire because they refuse the free gift!

There is no direct correlation between what Jesus suffered on the cross and what those who refuse the free gift made available by His sacrifice will experience as punishment for not accepting the free gift.

If you sin:

~ Without Christ, you are found guilty and stand convicted.

~ With Christ, you are not found guilty by virtue of Christ taking your conviction upon Himself.

Punishment is a separate issue in the "big picture" of God's system of Judgement.

The 'Wrath of God' is a punishment for the wicked - did Christ suffer all of that (specifically) while on the cross?

Of course not.

Again, people go to hell because of their lack of belief, faith, and trust in God/Christ - not because they stole a car.

The notion that Jesus would have to "take the punishment" forever to "pay the penalty" for us - versus - the lost in the lake of fire in torment - is mixing apples and oranges in a fruit basket of error.

When Romans says the wages of sin is death, 'death' is the conviction and not the punishment.

It is referring to a 'spiritual' death and not a 'physical' death.

Likewise are other words like 'perish' in their context referring to the conviction and not the punishment.

In Revelation 14:11, the "smoke of their torment" is a form of glorification of God.

God has made it so that every individual will 'glorify' God forever - whether voluntary or involuntary - and, it is the choice of each individual.

Eisegesis 101

 

[GaryA]

Many of the posters in this thread seem to be confused about 'physical' death and 'spiritual' death - and, which verses of scripture are referring to which type of death.

 

[GaryA]

In the present day, there are no places with streams of eternal burning pitch, burning brimstone dust, and land made of burning pitch with smoke that rises forever; this means it's not literal.

It is future - it has not transpired yet.

It will come to pass at/after the Second Coming - extending into - and throughout - the millennium.

 

[GaryA]

To me, even this sounds like there are varying degrees (of G928), even during this life on earth.

That's right - some days are better than others...

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

Many of the posters in this thread seem to be confused about 'physical' death and 'spiritual' death - and, which verses of scripture are referring to which type of death.

Gary, what scriptures do you believe are being misapplied? I will be glad to discuss these with you if you will be specific.

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

First of all, they are not His children.
"Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father aawell as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. - Ezekiel 18:4 (NKJV)

The answer to your first sentence - because He is righteous!
So a righteous God is UNmerciful towards sinners?

And, all of His creation will glorify Him forever - because He is God.
True

 

[Runningman]

It is future - it has not transpired yet.

It will come to pass at/after the Second Coming - extending into - and throughout - the millennium.

In the future it will not last forever either. There will be a New Earth where only righteousness dwells. It's not literal.

 

[Gardenias]

Final thoughts:

For those who believe not what God says about the ungodly and wicked and their final punishment you do not well for the rebellious and disobedient ungodly, wicked sinners believe as you do!

Compare the splendors of heaven and the promises attributed to it being our home. Now compare the lake of fire with eternal torment for the wicked and ungodly ,you are not comparing spiritual with spiritual therefore it seems evil to you!

What about the OT when God told them to destroy whole cities,man woman and child and leave nothing standing on its hoof......is that evil?

God is more than a benevolent bobblehead wanting love and peace for all. He gave the most precious being he had to secure than none would receive this final eternal judgment.

He is a jealous God,one of wrath,vengeance and true judgments!
Be ware that you stay grounded in HIS truth!

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

In the future it will not last forever either. There will be a New Earth where only righteousness dwells. It's not literal.

Only righteousness dwells because everything unrighteous is shut out of it.
I can't see that there is anything unrighteous about a penalty delivered by the righteous and just judge.

 

[Gideon300]

Do you believe the bits about the "body and soul" being destroyed in hell, or those who do not believe in Jesus will perish, or the lake of fire being the second death as symbolic or metaphorical? If yes, then why.

I take verses like Matt 10:28, John 3:16, and Revelation 21:8 literally because I find that's more consistent.

What does "destroyed" mean? How do you measure the soul? The body I can understand, yet the rich man surely suffered physically while Lazarus did just fine. All people will be raised from the dead and have to face God's judgement. If God is going to annihilate everyone but those who are born again, it seems to be a pointless exercise.

Death is most certainly not the end of existence. Adam died the moment that he disobeyed God. Yet he walked, talked, acted, ate and drank as a physical being. Adam was separated from God. The second death makes the first death irrevocable. There is no salvation for those who experience the second death. So no, it is not symbolic or metaphorical. The first death came with the hope of restoration to eternal life. The second death removes that hope forever.

 

[Laura798]

Final thoughts:

For those who believe not what God says about the ungodly and wicked and their final punishment you do not well for the rebellious and disobedient ungodly, wicked sinners believe as you do!

Compare the splendors of heaven and the promises attributed to it being our home. Now compare the lake of fire with eternal torment for the wicked and ungodly ,you are not comparing spiritual with spiritual therefore it seems evil to you!

What about the OT when God told them to destroy whole cities,man woman and child and leave nothing standing on its hoof......is that evil?

God is more than a benevolent bobblehead wanting love and peace for all. He gave the most precious being he had to secure than none would receive this final eternal judgment.

He is a jealous God,one of wrath,vengeance and true judgments!
Be ware that you stay grounded in HIS truth!

Again, Gardenias,

All your postings are your own 'Thoughts' as you say, along with angry judgments. But that is not how one comes to the Truth.

You said: Beware that you stay grounded in HIS truth! Hmm? Are you threatening to cast a witches spell on us?




Exegesis is legitimate interpretation which "reads out of' the text what the original author or authors meant to convey. Eisegesis, on the other hand, reads into the text what the interpreter wishes to find or thinks he finds there. It expresses the reader's own subjective ideas, not the meaning which is in the text.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The fire is eternal.
If everything including all the wicked the spirits where annihilated at some point, why would the fire be eternal?

Math 25:41
“Then he will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

 

[Laura798]

Final thoughts:

For those who believe not what God says about the ungodly and wicked and their final punishment you do not well for the rebellious and disobedient ungodly, wicked sinners believe as you do!

Compare the splendors of heaven and the promises attributed to it being our home. Now compare the lake of fire with eternal torment for the wicked and ungodly ,you are not comparing spiritual with spiritual therefore it seems evil to you!

What about the OT when God told them to destroy whole cities,man woman and child and leave nothing standing on its hoof......is that evil?

God is more than a benevolent bobblehead wanting love and peace for all. He gave the most precious being he had to secure than none would receive this final eternal judgment.

He is a jealous God,one of wrath,vengeance and true judgments!
Be ware that you stay grounded in HIS truth!

You said:
What about the OT when God told them to destroy whole cities,man woman and child and leave nothing standing on its hoof......is that evil?

DESTROY being the operative word. THAT is the end of the unbeliever.

"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"--2nd Thess 1:9

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

Final thoughts:

For those who believe not what God says about the ungodly and wicked and their final punishment you do not well for the rebellious and disobedient ungodly, wicked sinners believe as you do!

Compare the splendors of heaven and the promises attributed to it being our home. Now compare the lake of fire with eternal torment for the wicked and ungodly ,you are not comparing spiritual with spiritual therefore it seems evil to you!

What about the OT when God told them to destroy whole cities,man woman and child and leave nothing standing on its hoof......is that evil?

God is more than a benevolent bobblehead wanting love and peace for all. He gave the most precious being he had to secure than none would receive this final eternal judgment.

He is a jealous God,one of wrath,vengeance and true judgments!
Be ware that you stay grounded in HIS truth!

Gardenias, you have been given scripture after scripture; yet you insist on believing that God will torment unbelievers in hell for an eternity. Consider again:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
- Romans 6:23 (NKJV)

But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off.
- Psalm 37:38 (NKJV)

But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off.
- Psalm 37:38 (NKJV)

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
- John 3:16 (NKJV)

"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
- Deuteronomy 4:24 (NKJV)

 

[Laura798]

The fire is eternal.
If everything including all the wicked the spirits where annihilated at some point, why would the fire be eternal?

Math 25:41
“Then he will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

Good Lord, Lucy. Have you not read any of our supporting verses? Do you not understand the difference between figurative and literal language? In literal language the bible says repeatedly that DEATH and DESTRUCTION is the end of man. ETERNAL FIRE will completely consume what is being burned, therefore it is figurative. If you can't figure that out, well there can be no true understanding of scripture or any other form of writing. PERISH means PERISH. DEATH means DEATH. DESTRUCTION means DESTRUCTION.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Perish: Suffer complete ruin or destruction. Death.

 

[Runningman]

Only righteousness dwells because everything unrighteous is shut out of it.
I can't see that there is anything unrighteous about a penalty delivered by the righteous and just judge.

In the comment I responded to, the commenter's false narrative is that there will be unrighteous people being judged fire and smoke that rises forever in a location on Earth called Edom. That would mean in the New Earth there are still unrighteous people present in eternal torment on the New Earth, thereby contradicting the scriptures about only righteousness dwelling on the New Earth.

2 Peter 3:13
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Isaiah 34:9-10 is not literal.

 

[Runningman]

What does "destroyed" mean? How do you measure the soul? The body I can understand, yet the rich man surely suffered physically while Lazarus did just fine. All people will be raised from the dead and have to face God's judgement. If God is going to annihilate everyone but those who are born again, it seems to be a pointless exercise.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal; it's a parable. Rich people do not go to torment for having money and beggars don't go to paradise for having a tough life. That completely upends God's plan of salvation for mankind and introduces a false doctrine about salvation and condemnation based on someone's economic status rather than God's mercy.

This parable is meant to give the reader spiritual lessons.

Furthermore, it says nothing in Luke 16:19-31 about it lasting forever.

Death is most certainly not the end of existence. Adam died the moment that he disobeyed God. Yet he walked, talked, acted, ate and drank as a physical being. Adam was separated from God. The second death makes the first death irrevocable. There is no salvation for those who experience the second death. So no, it is not symbolic or metaphorical. The first death came with the hope of restoration to eternal life. The second death removes that hope forever.

Adam died spiritually, but he wasn't separated from God was he? Post fall of Adam and Eve, God still interacted with them directly in the exact same way He was interacting with them before. God made them clothes and accepted their animal sacrifice. That means your definition of spiritual death being a "separation from God" is not sound scripture.

What spiritual death is is exactly what it says: death. Scripture confirms death is literal death and not separation from God.