Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[CherieR]

May I suggest a picture that could help us.

So...there is a door before us, it says on it `Whosoever may enter.` Some enter and some don`t. Those who enter look behind them and on the back of the door it says `Chosen in Him.` Thus we see that `all` are invited, however the ones who respond are obviously `chosen` because they are now `in Christ.` Note that if `all` responded then `all` would be `chosen.`

The front door is our view, the back of the door, (Jesus) is God`s view, omniscient, (all knowing).

Marilyn.

I like that illustration. Nice.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wrong. Non sequitur.

If you can lose something based on what you do or do not do
in the end you have to earn it by doing or not doing what was required
how you can not see this boggles
My Mind

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, it reflects badly on the person. You seem tired. Bedtime for both of us.

Nope. Because a persons faith is based on the faithfulness of the one they are trusting
if the person becomes untrustworthy. Our faith in them flounders and can eventually stop altogether
my faith in you is dependent on you. Nit myself. If my faith was in myself it
Means I have no faith in you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A man cannot abide in something he was never attached to.

Your right
John never said they abided at all. Your the one adding that word. He said they departed from us.
He never said they departed from God

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is why I can never have a normal conversation with you

I'm sorry you're having such difficulty.

you asked what they left

i showed you what John said

and you still can not see it

Maybe you just aren't clear enough. Which is why I asked my question. btw, I didn't ask WHAT they left. You made a comment about "what else" they left, which seemed to be an insinuation that the group that left also left salvation. I was trying to draw out what you meant by "not only".

you need to humble yourself.

Are you offended by confidence? I know my Bible. And I use verses that say what I believe. I know that does offend those who can't support their claims with Scripture, but that's the way it goes.

You need to be more clear. We all have our problems.

If you can’t read plain English, the last thing you need to do is try to teach others

I can read it very easily. But some people just seem unable to use plain English in cognizant ways.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There it is again. The old fall-back. Lets see what the verse really says...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

They neglected to abide in the vine. They were not predestined for Heaven after all. This verse does not state that they were never born again. It does state that they went out out. Yes, I will agree that God knew that they would not end up in Heaven, but it is not our job to separate the wheat from the tares. It is our job to warn our membership to...

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

So, do you believe what Jesus said or not?

He said those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24. He also said recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

If you believe salvation can be lost, then how is it possible that you believe what Jesus said???

Those who believe salvation can be lost must jettison both verses, because they REFUTE such an idea.

A person receives the gift of eternal life the MOMENT they believe in Christ for salvation. Therefore, eternal security is based solely on being given the gift.

Lifestyle has NO EFFECT on one's salvation. But lifestyle has a HUGE EFFECT on how God treats His child.

And God is not a casual Parent who isn't paying attention to His children.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Leaving the church does not mean leaving salvation. Is that your view?

The Church is the body of all born again believers.

Sorry, but this does not answer my question clearly.

Are you saying that a person has the power to undo their regeneration? Kinda like being UN-born. Where in the Bible is such an idea taught? I know many people seem to have this opinion, but I'm interested in where Scripture supports such a view.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe you just aren't clear enough. Which is why I asked my question. btw, I didn't ask WHAT they left. You made a comment about "what else" they left, which seemed to be an insinuation that the group that left also left salvation. I was trying to draw out what you meant by "not only".

Its sad you can not even remember the words YOU SPEAK

So, what did they "leave" then?

I never made any comment about what ELSE they left. I have always maintained what John said. THEY LEFT US. John never said they left anything else. YOU ARE!

So you are not only being deceptive. it appears you are deceived about your own words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Losing faith does not mean losing salvation

Casting away our faith does mean losing salvation. Apostacy happens.

Then you will need to prove this notion from Scripture, with CLEAR verses.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

adokimos: not standing the test, rejected
Transliteration: adokimos
Definition: not standing the test, rejected
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from alpha (as a neg. prefix) and dokimos
Definition
not standing the test, rejected
NASB Translation
depraved (1), disqualified (1), fail the test (2), rejected (1), unapproved (1), worthless (2).

To abuse this verse into support for loss of salvation is quite sad.

First, salvation is NOT a "test". It's a condition. It includes a number of things.
1. born again, regeneration, new creature. That cannot be undone.
2. sealing of the Holy Spirit. That cannot be undone.
3. child of God. That cannot be undone.

Paul was referring to living up to God's plan for him, which is clearly stated in Acts 9:15. Paul was a "chosen instrument to carry the gospel to the Gentiles". Paul was stating that he HAD lived up to God's plan for him.

We do not receive our incorruptible crowns until we get to Heaven.

John 5:24 SAYS those who believe HAVE (as in possess right NOW) eternal life. Do you think the gift of eternal life is corruptible?

Care to repent of your erroneous opinion?

 

[FreeGrace2]

A man that now denies Christ is obviously not abiding in the Vine. The man who abides in the Vine bears good fruit. The truth is not complicated. Error is complicated.

The whole issue of "abiding" (John 15) is about fellowship with the Lord. Read 1 John 1. It's all about fellowship. Sin breaks fellowship, just as an offending spouse offends the other.

When out of fellowship, which is through sin, the believer MUST confess those sins to restore fellowship.

That was Jesus' point in John 15. Believers who are out of fellowship (not abiding) CANNOT bear fruit. It's impossible.

In fact, Jesus assured all of the 11 that they were "clean", meaning saved. v.3

 

[FreeGrace2]

Its sad you can not even remember the words YOU SPEAK



I never made any comment about what ELSE they left. I have always maintained what John said. THEY LEFT US. John never said they left anything else. YOU ARE!

So you are not only being deceptive. it appears you are deceived about your own words.

Go back and read your own post. I'm not going to wade through pages.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Go back and read your own post. I'm not going to wade through pages.

You go back and read your own post.

I am not going to keep exposing your issue. and you keep ignoring it.

You said you did not ask that question.

I PROVED YOU DID with your own words.

And you are still denying it

As i said, this is why no one can have an honest conversation with you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Eternally-gratefull,

I just thought that I would chime in here:

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

You can't wander away from something that you were never a part of.

Notice that while in that wandered stated that the hypothetical person is accumulating sin and is on their way to death. And here is one more example:

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "

The above demonstrates a believer and even an overseer hypothetically going back into living according to the sinful nature. Notice the designations of 'servant' and "Master" demonstrating that the servant is a true believer which has turned away from faith. Notice the outcome.

God's grace is the wall outlet and our faith is the plug to God's grace. If we unplug it, we have been removed form the power of God's grace. We need to stay plugged in.

Hey brother

I am talking about 1 John 2. Where John said they departed from us. And are now deniers of Christ.

It has nothing to do with sin. Lets just keep to what John said in context. Not go all over th eplace trying to figure out what we think John said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You go back and read your own post.

I am not going to keep exposing your issue. and you keep ignoring it.

You said you did not ask that question.

I PROVED YOU DID with your own words.

And you are still denying it

As i said, this is why no one can have an honest conversation with you

Let's just cut to the chase.

Do you think the ones who left lost salvation or never had salvation?

 

[Edify]

Yet it says those who are BEING sanctified

we do not sanctify ourselves we are being sanctified,

your right, there is no. Idle ground, but we still are being sanctified by God himself

Regardless of whether it is us or the Lord, we must allow it. We always have the ability to choose.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

May I suggest a picture that could help us.

So...there is a door before us, it says on it `Whosoever may enter.` Some enter and some don`t. Those who enter look behind them and on the back of the door it says `Chosen in Him.` Thus we see that `all` are invited, however the ones who respond are obviously `chosen` because they are now `in Christ.` Note that if `all` responded then `all` would be `chosen.`

The front door is our view, the back of the door, (Jesus) is God`s view, omniscient, (all knowing).

Marilyn.

I love this!

Thank you and welcome to CC

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let's just cut to the chase.

Do you think the ones who left lost salvation or never had salvation?

According to john, they WERE NEVER OF US. He did not say they were of us, and now are not a part part us.

He also did not say they left God. or they depasrted from God

I have told you like how many times now they never had salvation. so why are you continually asking the question you already know

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Regardless of whether it is us or the Lord, we must allow it. We always have the ability to choose.

So you can withstand God?

Jonah tried that. Did God allow him to continue to walk away?

When I try to resist. This is what God does to me..

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Let's just cut to the chase.

Do you think the ones who left lost salvation or never had salvation?

According to john, they WERE NEVER OF US. He did not say they were of us, and now are not a part part us.

You complain about having a discussion with me yet you won't even answer a rather simple and straightforward question.

Did the leavers lose salvation or never had it? This is not a difficult question. Or do you just not know?

He also did not say they left God. or they depasrted from God

Doesn't answer my question.

I have told you like how many times now they never had salvation. so why are you continually asking the question you already know

After pages and pages, it's hard to keep track of everyone's views. Why is answering questions so hard for you?

That's why I finally posted my "cut to the chase". And even your initial answer to my question was vague.

But thanks for finally clarifying.

I question why unbelievers would be IN a 1st Century church. Back then, this was the general view of the population:

1 Cor 1-
22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles

So, other than "false brothers" who were infiltrating churches, why would unbelievers be interested in attending them?

Gal 2:4 - And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage

And John didn't describe the leavers as "false brothers".

In my opinion, John could have referred to either unbelievers who were initially curious about the church but finally left, or believers who got into false doctrine, which I've proved from Acts 15.

So, what's the problem? It could be either or both. That would make us both correct.

 

[Edify]

So you can withstand God?

Yes, because The Father doesn't force himself on anyone.