Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[ChosenbyHim]

The problem I see is that many so-called Christians are not born again to start with. Paul Washer is somewhat extreme, but he has a point. Surveys reveal that the great majority of church attenders are Christian in name only. This clouds the issue. If pastors would preach the real gospel and ensure that their congregation consisted of born again believers, we would be having much different conversations. It varies, but something like 3-4% of church attenders are in reality born again.

I agree absolutely that once a person is born again, he cannot be "unborn" again. Eternal life is just that - eternal. What confuses people is that there are two salvations, or three really. The first is to be born again, as you say it is instant. Then there is the salvation of the soul. Some call this progressive sanctification. I don't know why. The Bible states "the salvation of the soul". The third is that our physical bodies will be replaced. That also will be instantaneous.

If we replace "salvation" with "deliverance" it makes things a little clearer. Lord Jesus preached and ministered deliverance. Our ministry should be His, as stated Luke 4:18. The born again should be changing over the years. I knew nothing of any of this when I was born again. 50 years down the track, I am a different person. It's not my doing. All I've done is sin and fail and stumble and fall. "By grace are you saved" is a moment by moment experience, not a one off the time that you are born again.

To hell with "isms". They just divide and detract from the true gospel. Jesus came to give us new life, not a new theology to argue about. Can we not just focus on Lord Jesus, who He is, what He has done for us, who He is in us and who we are in Him? We argue about non-issues while the world drifts along the road to destruction. We don't have time for this.

While there certainly are false converts out there, Gideon300. Nevertheless, the problem with Paul Washer and John Macarthur and other Calvinists and Lordship Salvation proponents is that they equate continual carnal living as "evidence" that one is not "really saved." And this is not the case at all. Since any Christian is capable of committing any sin of the flesh. A Christian that lives in carnality is simply a Carnal Christian. And one that is still immature.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

The problem I see is that many so-called Christians are not born again to start with. Paul Washer is somewhat extreme, but he has a point. Surveys reveal that the great majority of church attenders are Christian in name only. This clouds the issue. If pastors would preach the real gospel and ensure that their congregation consisted of born again believers, we would be having much different conversations. It varies, but something like 3-4% of church attenders are in reality born again.

In order to determine whether one is born again or not, we must ask them what they are trusting in. In other words, have they believed the true Gospel? Which is the Death, Burial and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. If they have trusted and believed this Gospel, and are trusting in Christ alone to save them. Then they are born again Christians.

I agree absolutely that once a person is born again, he cannot be "unborn" again. Eternal life is just that - eternal. What confuses people is that there are two salvations, or three really. The first is to be born again, as you say it is instant. Then there is the salvation of the soul. Some call this progressive sanctification. I don't know why. The Bible states "the salvation of the soul". The third is that our physical bodies will be replaced. That also will be instantaneous.

Yes, I also call it the three phases of Salvation From Sin. The first phase is past tense and it happens one time. It is the Salvation from the Penalty of Sin. And then there is the second phase of salvation from sin, and this occurs in the present time of life, which means it is an on going process. This is synonymous with progressive Sanctification. This is the salvation from the power of Sin and this can only happen as we walk in the Spirit daily. For if we walk after the Flesh, then there will be no salvation from the power of Sin. And then the third phase of Salvation is the Salvation from the Presence of Sin, and it should be obvious that this is futuristic. This will take place in the future, either at the Translation (Rapture of the Church, Resurrection) And/Or at the time of our Death and our transition to be in the presence of the LORD.

If we replace "salvation" with "deliverance" it makes things a little clearer. Lord Jesus preached and ministered deliverance. Our ministry should be His, as stated Luke 4:18. The born again should be changing over the years. I knew nothing of any of this when I was born again. 50 years down the track, I am a different person. It's not my doing. All I've done is sin and fail and stumble and fall. "By grace are you saved" is a moment by moment experience, not a one off the time that you are born again.

To hell with "isms". They just divide and detract from the true gospel. Jesus came to give us new life, not a new theology to argue about. Can we not just focus on Lord Jesus, who He is, what He has done for us, who He is in us and who we are in Him? We argue about non-issues while the world drifts along the road to destruction. We don't have time for this.

Well, Deliverance can happen in a believer’s life. But the only way we can have Holy Ghost power is by Walking in the Spirit. And then as we walk in the Spirit, we will have experiential victory over the world, the flesh and the devil.

Also Giden300, we must discuss Bible Doctrine it is important. And it is important because Bible Doctrine is important, sir.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

While I do not agree with either of the two views you give at least the view you promote is consistent.

If I understand what you are promoting it is this:

If a person puts their faith in Jesus Christ at a point in time: that is all that matters: they are then guaranteed heaven.

This is correct, Chester, since Salvation is by Faith Alone. Not of Works.

If after that they kill 100 people: strangling them, torturing them, abusing them, and eating them: it does not matter - they will go to heaven! If they curse and swear at God and tell Him they do not want to go to heaven: it does not matter - they now have no choice in the matter - they are going to go to heaven even if they don't want to go there.

Am I understanding what you believe?

Quite an extreme example, you gave there, Chester. One thing we must keep in mind, Chester is this. God’s infallible word, His Finished Bible, the blessed King James Bible teaches us that God will chasten His Children. And if a Christian begins to live after the flesh and live wickedly, God will deal with him. Now Is a Christian capable of committing abomination? Yes. A Christian is capable of committing any sin mentioned in the Book. A Christian is even capable of doing much worse than Hitler did. Since our Sinful nature is that evil and wicked. Now I believe that God would not allow a Christian to get to that level of what you mentioned in your example. I believe that the Christian would either be in prison before he got to a point of torturing and eating people. Or that God would kill that Christian and take him home early to heaven before it got that bad. The truth is though, is a Christian capable of committing very wicked and ungodly deeds? Yes. Because we still have our Old Sinful Nature. The difference is, with us, God chastens us and scourges us because He loves us.

It also is important to understand Chester, just because a Christian may live a wicked and immoral life, that does not do away with his new nature. The New Man (New Birth) is still in him. It will never go away since the New Birth is born of God (1 John 3:9) and born of the Holy Scripture (1 Pet. 1:23). And on the other hand, if a Christian is living one of the most godly and holy lives out there possible, that does not do away with his Old Man (his first birth, his Sin nature). For his sin nature still dwells in his physical members in his flesh, but he just has subdued it by walking in the Spirit.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Good question, 2ndTimothygroup. The truth is, if a Christian walks after the flesh long enough, they will be controlled by their sinful nature and they could put themselves back under the dominion and control of Satan.

The only way we can overcome our sinful nature in this life is by walking in the Spirit. This is how we subdue our sinful nature. It will never be eradicated in this life, but we surely can subdue it.

I'm sorry to say this, but what you've written is in total opposition to Scripture. For some reason, "pastors" don't teach Colossians 2:9-15 . . . but I'm showing you now. I hope you take heed . . . Salvation depends on the Right Hand of God . . . the Circumcision of Jesus Christ. I hope that you receive these verses as not from me, but from the Bible. If you don't like the NLT, the KJV gives a remarkable translation as well. The KJV and NLT together show what these Seven Perfect verses are about. I hope they penetrate your heart! I care about you.

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

If I were you, I'd be making an appointment with the pastor of your church and asking him or her why it is that they haven't taught you the True Gospel.

Romans 2:27-29 NLT - "In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it. For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."

These things are not undone. No one goes from being uncircumcised, to Circumcised, back to uncircumcised. This is a one way street!

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV - Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV - "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Hebrews 8:7-13 KJV - "For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

I believe in you 100%.

 

[oyster67]

No one gets into heaven because of earning or deserving heaven. That's what grace means.

That's right, and without the holiness that comes from abiding in the Vine, no man shall see the Lord (except at the GWTJ). Grace is what facilitates the ability to come to the Lord with a humble, repentant, and contrite heart whenever we sin. Grace does not force any Christian to abide if he or she does not want to. It is the Calvinist who does not appreciate the value of Grace and the Atonement.

What they reveal by their view is a failure to understand grace.

You can insinuate that anyone who does not agree with you is ignorant, but I don't think you will gain either credibility or traction by taking this tack.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

eternally-gratefull said:
I have a question.

We have a person who was brought to their knees with the knowledge of their sin and desperation based on the fact they know they are guilty and deserving of death. They come to the knowledge that God himself gave his son and his son paid their sin debt, and based on this fact alone, they call out on the name of Jesus in living saving faith. having fully repented and come to an agreement with what God says about them, about sin, and about their eternal issue.

How then could they do what you have stated this person who claimed to have faith did. by rejecting the faith they had to begin with? and what causes a person to do this?

To both "eternally-grateful" and "Chester",

Maybe you are not aware, but Chuck Templeton was the seasoned evangelist who mentored a very young Billy Graham. In fact, in 1947, they roomed together while doing crusades throughout Europe.

However, CT lost his faith and became an atheist over his inability to reconcile science and what he was taught about creation.

I don't want to derail this thread, but the translation of Gen 1:2 is very poor and leads to the wrong conclusion about the age of the earth. He realized the earth cannot be only 6,000 yrs old. Even carbon dating is accurate out to at least 10-15,000 years, yet gives data in the billions of years. So he concluded from the poor translation of Gen 1:2 and it's wrong message that God cannot be real, so he left the ministry as an atheist. He died that way.

To claim he was never saved to begin with is folly and assumes he was just a huge fraud, preaching what he didn't really believe.

Of course he believed what he preached. But this silly "glitch" changed his mind about the Bible. That's how fragile the faith of some can be.

Losing faith does not mean losing salvation. John 10:28 won't allow for that.

I will just go to the apostle John.

1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

As an athiest. this person has denied not only the father but the son also. By defenition. he does not have the father or the son

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Many people appear to be part of the church and saved. It does not mean they are. John said if they depart and now deny christ. they were never of us. I must go with John on this one

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
No one gets into heaven because of earning or deserving heaven. That's what grace means.

That's right, and without the holiness that comes from abiding in the Vine, no man shall see the Lord (except at the GWTJ).

This comment reveals 2 things.

1. You do not understand the meaning of "grace".
2. You DO believe that "unholy" believers will end up at the second death. Which directly CONTRADICTS what Jesus said about WHEN a believer possesses eternal life in John 5:24 and the direct result of being given eternal life in John 10:28, which is they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why do you not believe these verses?

Grace is what facilitates the ability to come to the Lord with a humble, repentant, and contrite heart whenever we sin.

No, that's clearly NOT "grace". Grace is God's attitude and action toward those who DO NOT DESERVE His salvation or blessings. They get it anyway.

Grace does not force any Christian to abide if he or she does not want to.

Correct. But don't make the mistake thinking that Christians who do not abide lose salvation. That is a very common error.

It is the Calvinist who does not appreciate the value of Grace and the Atonement.

It's anyone who fails to believe what Jesus said.

FreeGrace2 said:
What they reveal by their view is a failure to understand grace.

You can insinuate that anyone who does not agree with you is ignorant, but I don't think you will gain either credibility or traction by taking this tack.

All I've done is quote Jesus' very words. You can believe them or not. That is your business.

I haven't insinuated anything. But if my words have stirred some feelings of guilt or discomfort, pause and ask yourself why.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I will just go to the apostle John.

1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

As an athiest. this person has denied not only the father but the son also. By defenition. he does not have the father or the son

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Many people appear to be part of the church and saved. It does not mean they are. John said if they depart and now deny christ. they were never of us. I must go with John on this one

What you seem to have either misunderstood or outright rejected is when a believer changes their mind and becomes an atheist.

John was describing an unbeliever; one who NEVER believed the gospel and therefore NEVER received the gift of eternal life.

The Bible is clear about who IS condemned; those who "have not believed".

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

So, the Bible has 2 verses that make clear that it is those who "have not believed" who are condemned.

The words "have not believed" isn't limited by any time frame. So it's unlimited. So the words really mean NEVER believed.

Therefore, ONCE a person HAS believed in Christ for salvation, they receive the gift of eternal life. John 5:24

And Jesus said those He gives eternal life (which would be believers) SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

Arguing against eternal security is only arguing AGAINST the Bible itself. Those who do need to stop it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would like to address those believers who believe that salvation can be lost.

The reason for losing salvation is always described by way of lifestyle.

Salvation cannot be based on lifestyle, for that would mean salvation is by HOW believers live. iow, works salvation. Whether such believers agree or not. That IS what salvation becomes, if salvation can be lost on the basis of lifestyle.

However, lifestyle has a HUGE effect on the believer anyway. God promises painful discipline (Heb 12:11) for disobedient and/or unfaithful believers, loss of blessings on earth, and loss of reward in heaven.

While people around such believers may not observe God's discipline, and think the believer is "getting away" with sin, rest assured they are not. Also remember that God is very patient. Such believers may be having "fun" initially, but it won't last. They will at some time feel God's hand of discipline.

Heb 10:31 - It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Evmur]

Good post by Brother Gregg Jackson on the subject of Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security'

"Calvinists all claim to believe in eternal security (OSAS) & teach you can't lose your salvation IF you "truly believed" which of course is (according to them) determined by your fruit, works, how much you sin, habitual sins etc...

CALVINIST Eternal Security is FAR different from BIBLICAL Eternal Security which GUARANTEES every born again believer is Eternally Saved, Sealed, Sanctified & Secure the INSTANT they trust in Christ alone as savior (by believing The Gospel) regardless of how they may live SUBSEQUENT to being born again.

A born again believer SHOULD live lives (as empowered by The Holy Spirit) that are holy, righteous and set apart unto The Lord.
But it is neither a REQUIREMENT for salvation nor EVIDENCE of "genuine salvation."
Many works salvationists (Calvinist/Lordshippers & Arminians) call this (as a pejorative) "easy believism," "greasy grace" and "giving people a license to sin."

But it's what The Bible says is true...
Salvation is either a FREE GIFT procured and realized by faith ALONE in Jesus Christ ALONE the very NANOSECOND a person believes or it's not.
Period..."

I believe that but still God will not tolerate wilful sin, christians need to be warned that they are headed for a world of pain and sorrow if they continue in sin and ultimately physical death.

 

[Evmur]

salvation is granted upon repentance of sin so how can you carry on sinning?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What you seem to have either misunderstood or outright rejected is when a believer changes their mind and becomes an atheist.

John was describing an unbeliever; one who NEVER believed the gospel and therefore NEVER received the gift of eternal life.

The Bible is clear about who IS condemned; those who "have not believed".

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

So, the Bible has 2 verses that make clear that it is those who "have not believed" who are condemned.

The words "have not believed" isn't limited by any time frame. So it's unlimited. So the words really mean NEVER believed.

Therefore, ONCE a person HAS believed in Christ for salvation, they receive the gift of eternal life. John 5:24

And Jesus said those He gives eternal life (which would be believers) SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

Arguing against eternal security is only arguing AGAINST the Bible itself. Those who do need to stop it.

You failed to read what was posted.

John stated clearly. they LEFT. if they LEFT. it means at one time they were part of the church.

John is stating a fact. Although they claimed to be part of the church. THEY were never truly part of the church. In other words. Their faith was not salvic. They most likely believed at one time. Otherwise they would not consider themselves part of us.

They left to PROVE they were never of us, means they proved they never had saving faith. they were never saved.

A person can come to church for years. If they change their mind and become an athiest. John applies to them. they were never of us.. They were never saved. You do not go from being a true believer to an unbeliever unless you never truly believed in the first place.

 

[SophieT]

Quite an extreme example, you gave there, Chester. One thing we must keep in mind, Chester is this. God’s infallible word, His Finished Bible, the blessed King James Bible teaches us that God will chasten His Children. And if a Christian begins to live after the flesh and live wickedly, God will deal with him. Now Is a Christian capable of committing abomination? Yes. A Christian is capable of committing any sin mentioned in the Book. A Christian is even capable of doing much worse than Hitler did. Since our Sinful nature is that evil and wicked. Now I believe that God would not allow a Christian to get to that level of what you mentioned in your example. I believe that the Christian would either be in prison before he got to a point of torturing and eating people. Or that God would kill that Christian and take him home early to heaven before it got that bad. The truth is though, is a Christian capable of committing very wicked and ungodly deeds? Yes. Because we still have our Old Sinful Nature. The difference is, with us, God chastens us and scourges us because He loves us.

It also is important to understand Chester, just because a Christian may live a wicked and immoral life, that does not do away with his new nature. The New Man (New Birth) is still in him. It will never go away since the New Birth is born of God (1 John 3:9) and born of the Holy Scripture (1 Pet. 1:23). And on the other hand, if a Christian is living one of the most godly and holy lives out there possible, that does not do away with his Old Man (his first birth, his Sin nature). For his sin nature still dwells in his physical members in his flesh, but he just has subdued it by walking in the Spirit.

well on the one hand you state a 'Christian' is even capable of doing much worse than Hitler did and then you call Chesters example extreme

Now I believe that God would not allow a Christian to get to that level of what you mentioned in your example.

but they could be as bad or worse than Hitler

a Christian does not live a wicked and immoral life because they would not be a Christian if they did.

I would find all this funny if I didn't believe you are serious. if you happen to answer me, kindly do not say Sophie a dozen times. That is a technique I find annoying and all too obvious.

you know, I actually find the above post a bad understanding of what scripture actually states. (shrugs)

 

[SophieT]

Can a true Christian be carnal? In answering this question, let’s first define the term “carnal.” The word “carnal” is translated from the Greek word sarkikos, which literally means “fleshly.” This descriptive word is seen in the context of Christians in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. In this passage, the apostle Paul is addressing the readers as “brethren,” a term he uses almost exclusively to refer to other Christians; he then goes on to describe them as “carnal.” Therefore, we can conclude that Christians can be carnal. The Bible is absolutely clear that no one is sinless (1 John 1:8). Every time we sin, we are acting carnally.

The key thing to understand is that while a Christian can be, for a time, carnal, a true Christian will not remain carnal for a lifetime. Some have abused the idea of a “carnal Christian” by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to live the rest of their lives in a completely carnal manner, with no evidence of being born again or a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). Such a concept is completely unbiblical. James 2 makes it abundantly clear that genuine faith will always result in good works. Ephesians 2:8-10 declares that while we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, that salvation will result in works. Can a Christian, in a time of failure and/or rebellion, appear to be carnal? Yes. Will a true Christian remain carnal? No.

Since eternal security is a fact of Scripture, even the carnal Christian is still saved. Salvation cannot be lost, because salvation is a gift of God that He will not take away (see John 10:28; Romans 8:37-39; 1 John 5:13). Even in 1 Corinthians 3:15, the carnal Christian is assured of salvation: “If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, but whether that person was truly saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

SOURCE

 

[FreeGrace2]

You failed to read what was posted.

Not.

John stated clearly. they LEFT. if they LEFT. it means at one time they were part of the church.

Leaving the church does not mean leaving salvation. Is that your view?

John is stating a fact. Although they claimed to be part of the church. THEY were never truly part of the church.

John never said that. You are adding to Scripture your opinion.

In other words. Their faith was not salvic.

All faith in Christ for salvation is salvific.

They most likely believed at one time.

There you go. John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 describes people who never believed as being condemned.

Once belief, eternal life is given (John 5:24) and recipients shall never perish (John 10:28).

Otherwise they would not consider themselves part of us.

1 Jn 2:19 is commonly misunderstood. What John was noting was those who were doctrinally wrong, just as are found in Acts 15.

1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad.
4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

The red words refer to believers from the party of the Pharisees.
The blue words refer to what they believed and were teaching; circumcision for salvation.

How do you think John would view these people; as "belonging to them" or not? Since Luke describes them as believers, they did believe in Jesus for salvation. It appears the unbelieving Jews got to them and convinced them that circumcision was necessary for salvation, just like believers today to insist that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

This is the response to the FALSE TEACHING about circumcision being necessary for salvation.

They left to PROVE they were never of us, means they proved they never had saving faith. they were never saved.

No. Standing up to false teaching by a strong pastor/teacher would result in the false teachers leaving.

They are saved (they believed) but got into false doctrine. Of course they would leave.

A person can come to church for years.

This isn't even close to the issue. The sole issue in salvation is belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

If they change their mind and become an athiest. John applies to them. they were never of us.

OK, right. They believed at one time so they are NOT condemned.

Or do you not believe John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12?

They were never saved.

Wrong conclusion.

You do not go from being a true believer to an unbeliever unless you never truly believed in the first place.

That is just your opinion. And your sentence is internally contradicted.

You begin with a "true believer" and change lanes with "unless you never truly believed".

Once a person believes in Christ, they possess eternal life (John 5:24) and therefore shall never perish (John 10:28).

Do you believe the words of Jesus?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not.


Leaving the church does not mean leaving salvation. Is that your view?

They did not just leave the church. Once again, you are failing to read what was posted.

John never said that. You are adding to Scripture your opinion.

John said they deperted from us. Do you know anyone who comes to church that does not believe?

All faith in Christ for salvation is salvific.

True. So if they HAD true faith. then they lost salvation. Now don;t you teach we can not lose salvation? You need to make up your mind. where these people truly saved by faith and now are athiest, or were they not truly saved. as John said?

There you go. John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 describes people who never believed as being condemned.

Yep. And this is what John is telling us on 1 John, THEY WERE NEVER OF US. this means they never were part of the church. whihc means they NEVER TRULY BELIEVED)

Once belief, eternal life is given (John 5:24) and recipients shall never perish (John 10:28).

Yep. so these people could never have been part of the church as a true believer.

They were never given eternal life. WHihc is why they were never of us

1 Jn 2:19 is commonly misunderstood. What John was noting was those who were doctrinally wrong, just as are found in Acts 15.

1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad.
4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

The red words refer to believers from the party of the Pharisees.
The blue words refer to what they believed and were teaching; circumcision for salvation.

How do you think John would view these people; as "belonging to them" or not? Since Luke describes them as believers, they did believe in Jesus for salvation. It appears the unbelieving Jews got to them and convinced them that circumcision was necessary for salvation, just like believers today to insist that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

This is the response to the FALSE TEACHING about circumcision being necessary for salvation.


No. Standing up to false teaching by a strong pastor/teacher would result in the false teachers leaving.

They are saved (they believed) but got into false doctrine. Of course they would leave.


This isn't even close to the issue. The sole issue in salvation is belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.


OK, right. They believed at one time so they are NOT condemned.

Or do you not believe John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12?


Wrong conclusion.


That is just your opinion. And your sentence is internally contradicted.

You begin with a "true believer" and change lanes with "unless you never truly believed".

Once a person believes in Christ, they possess eternal life (John 5:24) and therefore shall never perish (John 10:28).

Do you believe the words of Jesus?

Alot of stuff here. Yet you have failed to respond to what John said.

THEY LEFT US.

who are they?

They are people WHO NOW DENY THE FATHER AND SON.

please stick to what john said, Your all over the place. nothing you stated in here has anything to do with what John said. It is not a doctrinal issue. or an issue about what people do. It is the fact they WALK WITH US, and now they DEPARTED FROM US. and have REJECTED THE FATHER AND SON through DENIAL (Unbelief)

 

[Chester]

This is correct, Chester, since Salvation is by Faith Alone. Not of Works.

You should check your Bible - There is no Scripture that says that salvation is by faith alone. That is a doctrinal belief that men have stated. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works - that is what Paul clearly states.

It seems that you believe that the very nanosecond, the exact point in time, that a person first believes is the determining factor on their eternal destiny. Do you have any Scripture that clearly states this? Or is this your doctrinal belief based on your study of Scripture?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

We are saved by grace

What I believe the Christian Faith of today's modern-day church is missing is the understanding of what Grace is . . . or should I say, what it means. Is Grace an idea/concept, or is it a Holy Work?

 

[Chester]

It also is important to understand Chester, just because a Christian may live a wicked and immoral life, that does not do away with his new nature. The New Man (New Birth) is still in him. It will never go away since the New Birth is born of God (1 John 3:9) and born of the Holy Scripture (1 Pet. 1:23). And on the other hand, if a Christian is living one of the most godly and holy lives out there possible, that does not do away with his Old Man (his first birth, his Sin nature). For his sin nature still dwells in his physical members in his flesh, but he just has subdued it by walking in the Spirit.

You make two clear doctrinal assertions here. One is that even if a man lives a wicked immoral life, the new nature in him will never go away. The second assertion is that in the life of a Christian his sin nature still dwells in his flesh.

Are these simply your doctrinal beliefs that you have been taught (or that you have gotten from your study of Scripture)? Or, do you have specific Scriptures that make these statements?

You do give two Scriptures above:

I John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

That one is a beautiful Scripture that says the one that has been born out of God with ongoing results cannot keep on sinning because the seed (sperma) of God is continuing to remain in Him because he has been born out of God with ongoing results.

(But that verse does not clearly state that the new man will never leave a person.)

I Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

PTL! That is a beautiful powerful verse that speaks of the new birth as being of incorruptible seed brought about by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever! PTL!

(But neither does that verse clearly state that the new man will never leave a person even if they live a wicked immoral life.)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can a true Christian be carnal? In answering this question, let’s first define the term “carnal.” The word “carnal” is translated from the Greek word sarkikos, which literally means “fleshly.” This descriptive word is seen in the context of Christians in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. In this passage, the apostle Paul is addressing the readers as “brethren,” a term he uses almost exclusively to refer to other Christians; he then goes on to describe them as “carnal.” Therefore, we can conclude that Christians can be carnal. The Bible is absolutely clear that no one is sinless (1 John 1:8). Every time we sin, we are acting carnally.

The key thing to understand is that while a Christian can be, for a time, carnal, a true Christian will not remain carnal for a lifetime. Some have abused the idea of a “carnal Christian” by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to live the rest of their lives in a completely carnal manner, with no evidence of being born again or a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). Such a concept is completely unbiblical. James 2 makes it abundantly clear that genuine faith will always result in good works. Ephesians 2:8-10 declares that while we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, that salvation will result in works. Can a Christian, in a time of failure and/or rebellion, appear to be carnal? Yes. Will a true Christian remain carnal? No.

Since eternal security is a fact of Scripture, even the carnal Christian is still saved. Salvation cannot be lost, because salvation is a gift of God that He will not take away (see John 10:28; Romans 8:37-39; 1 John 5:13). Even in 1 Corinthians 3:15, the carnal Christian is assured of salvation: “If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, but whether that person was truly saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

SOURCE

its odd we look at the word carnal. which basically means self focused. and can not see anything anyone ever does something for the sake of self. putting their needs above others. they are in a carnal state of mind. This is sin. this is the root cause of all sin and why we break commands.

Breaking a command is the result of a carnal mindset at any particular time. If we were focused on the spirit (serving and loving others) we would not break a command, because our focus is to love and serve others not self.

People want to focus on certain sins. or the amount of sin. They fail to realize. While Hitler did many great and horrific personal sins. His issue was he was carnal. He is no different from a person who is just as carnal. But his "committed" sins are not as bad in our point of view.

God said if we keep the whole law yet stumble in one point. we are guilty of all the law.

People need to stop looking at sin, and start looking at Christ. that is our only hope. Phrarisees looked to the law and thought they were righteous. So when Jesus came and told them what horrific sinners they were. and how they needed a savior, they rejected him.

We see the same thing happening today. I do not live like Hitler. And i believe in God so I must be ok.

Instead of looking at God. and saying I am just as guilty as hitler. I need Christ and his salvation. I am not worthy.

The ones who admit guilty are the ones who will be saved and grow in Christ. The ones who do not. it will be much harder for them to be saved, and if they do get saved, will be almost impossible for them to grow..