Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

[GaryA]

But he wants to twist my posts because he is in complete Denial of what Christ is saying in Matthew 24:15.

There is A LOT of that kind of thing on CC.

The only remedy involves a lot of pride-swallowing and humility-cultivation.

It requires a willingness to be the student rather than the teacher.

(If even for only a short time.)

 

[OldSage]

Hmm... If we say that all of Israel returned in fulfillment of this passage (particularly the section in red), why was Jerusalem destroyed in 70 AD? Wouldn't the section in red contradict the sin of stubbornly rejecting the Messiah?

I believe this passage is still future.

it doesn't say all Israel though, it says "one from a city and two from a family".
It says in the time when there was no ark of the covenant, which allows us
to understand that this is the second temple period.

If you read Ezra and Nehemiah, it is clear that they had to clean up their act
and become fully law observant, which they did.

 

[OldSage]

But, that is not what it says.

lol....but what it does say, according to you, will remain secret?

 

[OldSage]

Oh, sorry - it would be helpful to add - after reading that web page, it will be helpful to look at this one:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html

(Also posted earlier in this thread.)

Ah ok I've found it.

30A.D. Christ is crucified 62 x 7 = 434 years after the rebuilding of the city ends. NOT 434 years after the end of the 7th week - look carefully at Daniel 9:25-26

Doesn't really make any sense though Gary.
You are saying that the 62 weeks runs from 405-402BC, which is not a prophetic date and of no historical significance.
And you are cutting up the prophecy, arbitrarily I would say.

 

[GaryA]

There is A LOT of that kind of thing on CC.

The only remedy involves a lot of pride-swallowing and humility-cultivation.

It requires a willingness to be the student rather than the teacher.

(If even for only a short time.)

This is not intended in the sense of me (or, someone else) being the teacher - so much as that God is the teacher and that - when we stop trying to be the teacher and allow ourselves to be the student - God can show us the truth concerning the error of our understanding - correct it - and set us on the right path - in the right direction.

I do not say these things for self-glory...

"To God be the glory!"

After all - it is His truth...

I say these things for your edification.

I only want you to understand the truth.

Several of us have told you that we have "been there and done that" (were taught the pre-trib "mantra") - but, subsequently discovered the truth that it was not biblical.

Why will you not swallow your pride and consider the recommendation of our experience?

Why will you not listen to the several warnings given?

Along with prayer for God to open your eyes and help your understanding, we have stated our warnings with brotherly love that you might take down the wall of pride and arrogance and allow truth to walk in and take hold.

Why are you so stiff-necked???

All you want to do is "play your tape" and refuse to discuss the specific detail of certain verses which very clearly define and describe the nature of prophetic events?

It seems that you would rather "ride the tide" of a complex man-manufactured multi-phase interpreted scenario - based on fifth-level-significance detail - than to read and accept the simple straight-forward truth of what the Bible actually states very clearly and plainly.

It is very much like:

Matthew 23:

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

What you do not yet realize - is that you are the 'blind guides' in this verse - leading many brothers and sisters astray - thinking you "have it all figured out" - when you have nothing "figured out"...

You are in error.

You are in error.

Time is short.

How long will it be before you allow yourself to believe that you just may be wrong and that these warnings just may be worth giving your consideration [to]???

With all of the Christian Love that I can muster...

GaryA

 

[GaryA]

lol....but what it does say, according to you, will remain secret?

No secrets here:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

 

[GaryA]

Ah ok I've found it.



Doesn't really make any sense though Gary.
You are saying that the 62 weeks runs from 405-402BC, which is not a prophetic date and of no historical significance.
And you are cutting up the prophecy, arbitrarily I would say.

Read it...

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

 

[OldSage]

Read it...

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

I've read it Gary but I will never budge from my understanding that the 70th week is the
7 year war of annihilation of Judea by the Romans, from AD67-73, with the destruction
of the Temple at the mid-point, AD70.

Jesus said in Matthew 23, showing that the first Century Church would suffer intense persecution by apostate Israel:

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Not only did Jesus prophecy here, and elsewhere, the continued persecution of the prophets after his ascension, he also prophesied that it would be terminated by the judgment of that generation. Not only did he prophecy a judgment, he prophesied that it would be according to a 'metron', that is to say that the judgment had ALREADY been measured out.

So now let us go back to Daniel 9. We see the metron in Daniel, where the 490 years, including the catastrophic final week, (7 years), are here laid out. So now let us examine Gabriel's words, God's pre-ordained judgment.

-- 70 Weeks are required to end the rebellion and complete (and seal) the sins --

What is the rebellion? The rebellion is the Israelite resistance to God that has been going on for 1500 years.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

What is the completion of the sins?

3. complete, sum up, with accusative money 2 Kings 22:4 (other conjectures Klo Gr Gi); transgressions Daniel 8:23; sin Daniel 9:24 (Qr; Kt חתם).

It is precisely what Jesus spoke about, the filling up the metron, the measure of sins. Which is why Jesus says in Luke 12

Ye hypocrites...59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite (lepton-coin of very small value).

 

[OldSage]

Everything here is true.



Truly the Israelite remained/remains. Levites are Israelites, Judaites and bejaminites are Israelites too. But Israel (as in the "the complete kingdom of Israel") ceased to exist.

Recall that Herod (an Edomite) was on the throne of Judea, not Joseph (a true descendant of David). This was the backdrop prior to Messiah's appearance. Next, recall what they asked Messiah after His resurrection just before He ascended to heaven...


Acts 1:6-8 [brackets mine]
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem [capital of Southern House], and in all Judaea, and in Samaria [the former capital of Northern House, by Omri], and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


So even after the Messiah's resurrection Israel wasn't restored...you make a great point though because recall that even Solomon referenced the promise to David in 1 Kings 8:25 (before Jeremiah)

25 Therefore now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.


...but I think what I've underlined in the passage is the key. The throne of United Israel must first exist. As long as that throne exists David will have descendant on it.

I think the throne of David was eternal from when David reigned though Yahshua.
When we come to the last King Of Judea, who Nebuchadnezzar finally removes, we see
Nebuchadnezzar then operates in the function of the throne of David, as he is the King of Kings, (Daniel 2).

 

[cv5]

BZZZZZZZZZZT

Nope - Sorry - Wrong Answer.

Matthew 24:15-20 (+21) is most definitely talking about the events circa 70 A.D.

Only one "SEE-then-FLEE" - circa 70 A.D.

No future "SEE-then-FLEE" is recorded in Bible End Times Prophecy.

Nope. TDW is right again. Incidentally so am I....

 

[cv5]

You've proven precisely nothing wrong about what I said. But thanks for the background on "day and hour"--I didn't know that. Yet, it says nothing about the points I made.

I made at least 3 points about "expectation" in the context of prophetic fulfillment. We are not to be concerned about times and seasons. But there are endtime events that we will become aware of when they happen. The point is, prophecy is designed to help us where we are, and not to prognosticate about the future.

There are several ways to look at the tension about the timing and expectation of future events. Relatively speaking, Christ's 2nd Coming is sequential to his 1st Coming, and thus appears "near." However, the space of God's patience renders this an indeterminate period of time.

On the other hand, we are to be alert to false teachers, and this has little to do with anticipating the timing of Christ's Coming. Alertness is to those things that distract, confuse, or misdirect us, and nothing about Christ's coming, except that avoiding errors helps us be ready for that event.

To be "ready" for Christ's Coming again has nothing to do with anticipating the timing of that event. Rather, it has to do with remaining morally ready, which is the requirement for every faithful believer. We are always to be faithful. And thus, we can always be ready for final judgment, having repented of our sins, and choosing to live in righteousness. Whether Christ returns in our lifetime or not is not the issue. We are ready for future judgment, whenever that happens, as long as today we are living in righteousness.

Of course I've proven you are wrong. You say that Christ's imminent return (and the ceasless warnings to be vigilant and watchful) has nothing to do with fulfilling prophecy (you just have to be "morally ready".....YOUR WORDS) or the coming Kingdom. I say that it has EVERYTHING to do with fulfilling prophecy and the coming Kingdom. In fact the entire Bible is about the coming Kingdom and its King.

Reread your post above. It has zero references to prophecy or the Kingdom. I need to reiterate that for the board so that you cannot say otherwise in an attempt to backpedal, shuck and jive the way that you commonly do.

Nonsensical posts like yours are the reason why I have a huge swaths of people on ignore.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is A LOT of that kind of thing on CC.

The only remedy involves a lot of pride-swallowing and humility-cultivation.

It requires a willingness to be the student rather than the teacher.

(If even for only a short time.)

That goes for all sides.

 

[cv5]

There is A LOT of that kind of thing on CC.

The only remedy involves a lot of pride-swallowing and humility-cultivation.

It requires a willingness to be the student rather than the teacher.

(If even for only a short time.)

I for one have no inclination to be a student of someone who:
1) hasn't the slightest idea of what they're talking about or
2) apostates and heretics

I do however find TDW's post to be extraordinarily useful. On the other hand I find your posts to be worse than useless. Just to let you know....

 

[OldSage]

I for one have no inclination to be a student of someone who:
1) hasn't the slightest idea of what they're talking about or
2) apostates and heretics

I do however find TDW's post to be extraordinarily useful. On the other hand I find your posts to be worse than useless. Just to let you know....

TDW has built an eschatology on the idea that Luke 21 is a first century prophecy, and that Matthew 24 is an end of days prophecy.
Does this make any sense?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luke gives us a very good look at this portion of Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation.

Luke tells us this Abomination is 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

So like I was explaining to CV5, the Abomination [standing] in the Holy of Hollies is the Armies compassed around Jerusalem.

But he wants to twist my posts because he is in complete Denial of what Christ is saying in Matthew 24:15.

Plus, Luke does not even call it an abomination!

1. Does not matter what Luke says
2. an abomination is an idol or unclean thing which desolates a holy place
3. he said they would SEE it STANDING in the holy place. (Holy of holy’s where the atoning sacrifice is made according to the law)
3. armies surrounding Jerusalem is not the abomination of desolation, to even think this is well I can’t even imagine to depths one must go to

what did Gary say, we need to humble ourselves and remove our pride

 

[eternally-gratefull]

TDW has built an eschatology on the idea that Luke 21 is a first century prophecy, and that Matthew 24 is an end of days prophecy.
Does this make any sense?

That is out there, they are both the same events

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And, there is a reason for that...

I interpret the verse (15) differently than you; however, the final simple plain straight-forward result is this:



They are all three talking about 'Jerusalem compassed with armies' as/being the "sign" the Jew-Christians would 'see' and know to leave immediately...

Armies plural. Not army (Roman)

a study of OT prophecy shows there will be a time when armies surround the city, and it is God who destroys those armies in the end

 

[cv5]

TDW has built an eschatology on the idea that Luke 21 is a first century prophecy, and that Matthew 24 is an end of days prophecy.
Does this make any sense?

Wrong. What TDW is saying (and saying to perfunctory perfection) is that YES, all three accounts include the 70 A.D. destruction and ALSO, the 70th week/DOTL/SC. HOWEVER Luke 21:12-24 vastly expands upon the 70AD destruction in a way that the others do not and includes a warning to flee!

See and flee from 70 A.D. when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies!

See and a flee when the antichrist sets himself up in the Holy Place declaring himself to be God a.k.a. the abomination of desolation!

Two different circumstances two different events at two different junctures in history......one similar warning see and flee.

Look man, the first time I encountered this teaching (many years ago), I instantaneously understood to be correct and assimilated it as Biblical truth. Instantaneously. It was correct teaching and obviously correct indisputably so.

So what's your problem?

 

[OldSage]

Wrong. What TDW is saying (and saying to perfunctory perfection) is that YES, all three accounts include the 70 A.D. destruction and ALSO, the 70th week/DOTL/SC. HOWEVER Luke 21:12-24 vastly expands upon the 70AD destruction in a way that the others do not and includes a warning to flee!

See and flee from 70 A.D. when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies!

See and a flee when the antichrist sets himself up in the Holy Place declaring himself to be God a.k.a. the abomination of desolation!

Two different circumstances two different events at two different junctures in history......one similar warning see and flee.

Look man, the first time I encountered this teaching (many years ago), I instantaneously understood to be correct and assimilated it as Biblical truth. Instantaneously. It was correct teaching and obviously correct indisputably so.

So what's your problem?

My problem is that I fundamentally disapprove of such a scam.

 

[OldSage]

You said

Look man, the first time I encountered this teaching (many years ago), I instantaneously understood to be correct and assimilated it as Biblical truth. Instantaneously. It was correct teaching and obviously correct indisputably so.

If I may annotate

Look man, the first time I encountered this scam (many years ago), I instantaneously swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Instantaneously. It was false teaching and obviously incorrect - indisputably so.