Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

[Yahshua]

I don't know where you actually stand on the 70 weeks.
It is worth actually understanding the 6 elements of the 70 weeks, they
are not always immediately obvious.

1) kala pesa - restrain/finish the rebellion

Obviously those are 2 different ideas, and it is not clear which translation of kala we understand here.
I would think it refers to the quashing of the rebellion, by Rome, in the 70th week.

2) tamam hatam hattaat - to bring to the full & to seal up sins

This really implies the accumulation of sins of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:29-36) which were piled up until the 69 weeks were complete, and then judged in the 70th week.

1 Thessalonians 2 You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Here you are. This is how I understand the 70 'sevens'.

https://christianchat.com/threads/why-daniels-70th-week-must-be-in-the-future.200137/post-4598689

 

[OldSage]

The northern house couldn't simply return with the southern house because they were divorced. But the southern house could return because they were not divorced yet, they were just under punishment.


Deuteronomy 24:4
Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.


The Almighty abides by His law. It would've been an abomination for the Almighty to just bring back the northern house because He divorced her and she was defiled. For as long as He lived (hint, hint) He could not remarry her...ever. So Israel couldn't reconstitute before the husband died. So it was only Judah, the southern house, who returned to the land.

Jeremiah 31 is the promise to restore all of Israel (both houses) under the new covenant...which could only be fulfilled AFTER the Husband died. It was only AFTER the Husband died that he could remarry the northern house because the law of marriage was in force while the parties are still alive, as explained by Paul.


Romans 7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.


Messiah told his disciples - Benjaminites and Judaites - to not go to anyone else but to the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel (the northern house). They were lost because they were divorced. AFTER Messiah died and resurrected. the lost sheep of the northern house were sought out. Then the door was also open for the gentiles to be grafted.

This is very interesting what you say

 

[AandW]

So what happens AFTER "the times of the gentiles be fulfilled" and "the fullness of the gentiles be come in". You know.....the "gap"? The fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant to the nation Israel?

The [Gap] is a MAN MADE THEORY. And the Gentiles did fulfill ending of the Temple and Jerusalem has been trodden down till 1948. Jerusalem [is no longer] trodden down. It and Israel's Air Force + Military can compete with the best of the Worlds Military's TODAY!

 

[cv5]

The northern house couldn't simply return with the southern house because they were divorced. But the southern house could return because they were not divorced yet, they were just under punishment.


Deuteronomy 24:4
Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.


The Almighty abides by His law. It would've been an abomination for the Almighty to just bring back the northern house because He divorced her and she was defiled. For as long as He lived (hint, hint) He could not remarry her...ever. So Israel couldn't reconstitute before the husband died. So it was only Judah, the southern house, who returned to the land.

Jeremiah 31 is the promise to restore all of Israel (both houses) under the new covenant...which could only be fulfilled AFTER the Husband died. It was only AFTER the Husband died that he could remarry the northern house because the law of marriage was in force while the parties are still alive, as explained by Paul.


Romans 7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.


Messiah told his disciples - Benjaminites and Judaites - to not go to anyone else but to the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel (the northern house). They were lost because they were divorced. AFTER Messiah died and resurrected. the lost sheep of the northern house were sought out. Then the door was also open for the gentiles to be grafted.

So you are saying Messiah told His disciples to preach to the Northern 10 tribes only? How would they find them or confirm their identity if they are "the lost 10 tribes"....gone forever after 722BC?

I mean what did these disciples do.....inquire first of tribal affiliation and dismiss the Benjaminites and Judahites and Levites?

Furthermore....there is little indication of the tribe of the Apostles. Most were probably of the Northern tribes IMO....except Judas and Matthew who were southerners and probably of Judah.

You aren't making a lot of sense here. Especially taking into account Jesus' parables of the lost sheep.

 

[cv5]

The [Gap] is a MAN MADE THEORY. And the Gentiles did fulfill ending of the Temple and Jerusalem has been trodden down till 1948. Jerusalem [is no longer] trodden down. It and Israel's Air Force + Military can compete with the best of the Worlds Military's TODAY!

Wow.......you just confirmed the gap, though not accurately. I guess you are a closet gapper!

 

[AandW]

Wow.......you just confirmed the gap, though not accurately. I guess you are a closet gapper!

But it's [No Gap] because it has been ended for 73 years now. And according to your [Reasoning] Christ should have already performed the Pre-Trib Rapture, Tribulation should have taken place, Christ Returned a Second Time for Armageddon and the Mill Reign took place. So the way the [Gap Theory] was conceived, the events fulfill right after another. And here we are 73 going on 74 years and NADA!

 

[AandW]

We're looking for 490 years which [ONE WEEK] completes the End of the Gentile Reign. We are at 73+ years after the Gentile Reign and NADA! So the [Gap Theory] is False!

 

[OldSage]

Well I never said Daniel was a Jew. As I'm sure you know the southern house is Judah, Bejamin, and some Levites...while the northern house is the rest of the tribes, and some Levites. Recall the reason for Daniel's prayer...

Daniel 9:2
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.


70 Years as detailed in the book of Jeremiah. Well let's see what Jeremiah says...


Jeremiah 25:1-3
The word came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, which was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. So Jeremiah the prophet said to all the people of Judah and to all those living in Jerusalem: For twenty-three years—from the thirteenth year of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah until this very day—the word of the Lord has come to me and I have spoken to you again and again, but you have not listened.


Jehoiakim was only the king of Judah because by this time the northern house had already been judged to go into exile for their sins. The kingdom of Judah still existed at this time and Jeremiah was pronouncing punishment on THEM next in the name of the Almighty (after multiple warnings by multiple prophets).


Jeremiah 25:11-14 [brackets mine]
11 This whole country [Jerusalem] will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

12 “But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt,” declares the Lord, “and will make it desolate forever. 13 I will bring on that land all the things I have spoken against it, all that are written in this book and prophesied by Jeremiah against all the nations. 14 They themselves will be enslaved by many nations and great kings; I will repay them according to their deeds and the work of their hands.”


The 70 years were for the kingdom of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Notice what Hosea says...Hosea's prophecy was given to both houses during the time JUST BEFORE the N. kingdom of Israel was ended. So Hosea is before Jeremiah.


Hosea 1:1-10
This is the word of the LORD that came to Hosea son of Beeri in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and of Jeroboam son of Jehoash, king of Israel.

2 When the LORD first spoke through Hosea, He told him, “Go, take a prostitute as your wife and have children of adultery, because this land is flagrantly prostituting itself by departing from the LORD.”

3 So Hosea went and married Gomer daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.

4 Then the LORD said to Hosea, “Name him Jezreel, for soon I will bring the bloodshed of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”

6 Gomer again conceived and gave birth to a daughter, and the LORD said to Hosea, “Name her Lo-ruhamah, for I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel, that I should ever forgive them. Yet I will have compassion on the house of Judah, and I will save them—not by bow or sword or war, not by horses and cavalry, but by the LORD their God.”

8 After she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, Gomer conceived and gave birth to a son. And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people, and I am not your God.

10 Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted. And it will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’


The Almighty said that he would no longer forgive the northern house but he would have compassion on the southern house a bit more...but by the time of Jehoiakim (which was roughtly 120 some odd years later) the Almighty was fed up with the southern house too and so pronounced judgment on them. Notice how Jeremiah 3:8 reads...


Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.


The Almighty: "ok so for adultery I divorced the northern house...but you then go and also act like a whore too, Judah?"


So the 70 Years punishment was for the southern house; the Jews...but then 7 times more punishment was added on because they did not repent.

----

Will reply to your next post now...

I agree with much of what you say but I am having trouble reconciling how Israel could not exist prior to
the crucifixion of the Lord.

The Levitical Priesthood was inalienably Israelite:

Numbers 3:11 The Lord also said to Moses, 12 “I have taken the Levites from among the Israelites in place of the first male offspring of every Israelite woman. The Levites are mine, 13 for all the firstborn are mine. When I struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, I set apart for myself every firstborn in Israel, whether human or animal. They are to be mine. I am the Lord.”

And the Levitical priesthood, like the throne of David, is eternal. Neither since their inception have ever ceased to exist:

Jeremiah 33:17 For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, 18 nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’”

So even if Israel was divorced, the Israelite first-born remained, and the the Throne of David, which unites the two houses, of Ephraim and Judah, remains.

Israel simply never ceased to exist

 

[cv5]

But it's [No Gap] because it has been ended for 73 years now. And according to your [Reasoning] Christ should have already performed the Pre-Trib Rapture, Tribulation should have taken place, Christ Returned a Second Time for Armageddon and the Mill Reign took place. So the way the [Gap Theory] was conceived, the events fulfill right after another. And here we are 73 going on 74 years and NADA!

You have much to learn grasshopper. 1948 is only setting the stage......a pre-gathering that is absolutely necessary to fulfill end time prophecy.

BTW......May 14, 1948 is exactly 2520 years (430-70 X 7) from 606 BC. Just to let you know....

 

[AandW]

You have much to learn grasshopper. 1948 is only setting the stage......a pre-gathering that is absolutely necessary to fulfill end time prophecy.

BTW......May 14, 1948 is exactly 2520 years (430-70 X 7) from 606 BC. Just to let you know....

Doesn't matter. You are now skewing what the Gap Theory has always meant. End of Gentile Reign, Pre-Trib Rapture, 7 year [One Week] Tribulation. We are 73+ years PAST the Gentile Reign. You and many others have completely misunderstood and falsely added to the Word of God using Paul's 2nd Thess to create a Theory that for the past 66 years has been proven to be False, just like the Pre-Trib Rapture.

 

[Yahshua]

The Levitical Priesthood was inalienably Israelite:

Numbers 3:11 The Lord also said to Moses, 12 “I have taken the Levites from among the Israelites in place of the first male offspring of every Israelite woman. The Levites are mine, 13 for all the firstborn are mine. When I struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, I set apart for myself every firstborn in Israel, whether human or animal. They are to be mine. I am the Lord.”

And the Levitical priesthood, like the throne of David, is eternal. Neither since their inception have ever ceased to exist:

Jeremiah 33:17 For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, 18 nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’”

Everything here is true.

So even if Israel was divorced, the Israelite first-born remained, and the the Throne of David, which unites the two houses, of Ephraim and Judah, remains.

Israel simply never ceased to exist

Truly the Israelite remained/remains. Levites are Israelites, Judaites and bejaminites are Israelites too. But Israel (as in the "the complete kingdom of Israel") ceased to exist.

Recall that Herod (an Edomite) was on the throne of Judea, not Joseph (a true descendant of David). This was the backdrop prior to Messiah's appearance. Next, recall what they asked Messiah after His resurrection just before He ascended to heaven...


Acts 1:6-8 [brackets mine]
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem [capital of Southern House], and in all Judaea, and in Samaria [the former capital of Northern House, by Omri], and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


So even after the Messiah's resurrection Israel wasn't restored...you make a great point though because recall that even Solomon referenced the promise to David in 1 Kings 8:25 (before Jeremiah)

25 Therefore now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.


...but I think what I've underlined in the passage is the key. The throne of United Israel must first exist. As long as that throne exists David will have descendant on it.

 

[cv5]

Doesn't matter. You are now skewing what the Gap Theory has always meant. End of Gentile Reign, Pre-Trib Rapture, 7 year [One Week] Tribulation. We are 73+ years PAST the Gentile Reign. You and many others have completely misunderstood and falsely added to the Word of God using Paul's 2nd Thess to create a Theory that for the past 66 years has been proven to be False, just like the Pre-Trib Rapture.

But wait the "man of sin" has not been revealed nor has the 70th week of Daniel begun. Therefore your theory that the "gap" has been completed May 14, 1948 cannot possibly be true....

 

[OldSage]

Truly the Israelite remained/remains. Levites are Israelites, Judaites and bejaminites are Israelites too. But Israel (as in the "the complete kingdom of Israel") ceased to exist.

But the complete kingdom of Israel continued in Benjamin and Jerusalem.
Ahijah's robe was divided into 12, and Benjamin and Judah were put together because the Kingdom had not completely been
given to Jereboam. 1 part, Benjamin, resided in Judea: -

1 Kings 11
34 “‘But I will not take the whole kingdom out of Solomon’s hand; I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David my servant, whom I chose and who obeyed my commands and decrees. 35 I will take the kingdom from his son’s hands and give you ten tribes. 36 I will give one tribe to his son so that David my servant may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put my Name.

 

[OldSage]

Everything here is true.



Truly the Israelite remained/remains. Levites are Israelites, Judaites and bejaminites are Israelites too. But Israel (as in the "the complete kingdom of Israel") ceased to exist.

Recall that Herod (an Edomite) was on the throne of Judea, not Joseph (a true descendant of David). This was the backdrop prior to Messiah's appearance. Next, recall what they asked Messiah after His resurrection just before He ascended to heaven...


Acts 1:6-8 [brackets mine]
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem [capital of Southern House], and in all Judaea, and in Samaria [the former capital of Northern House, by Omri], and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


So even after the Messiah's resurrection Israel wasn't restored...you make a great point though because recall that even Solomon referenced the promise to David in 1 Kings 8:25 (before Jeremiah)

25 Therefore now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.


...but I think what I've underlined in the passage is the key. The throne of United Israel must first exist. As long as that throne exists David will have descendant on it.

Yes I see your point. The throne of David was really established in heaven after Christ resurrected from the dead.
I suppose the disciples were wondering about the end of Roman occupation....

I need to think about it all a lot more

 

[OldSage]

Everything here is true.



Truly the Israelite remained/remains. Levites are Israelites, Judaites and bejaminites are Israelites too. But Israel (as in the "the complete kingdom of Israel") ceased to exist.

Recall that Herod (an Edomite) was on the throne of Judea, not Joseph (a true descendant of David). This was the backdrop prior to Messiah's appearance. Next, recall what they asked Messiah after His resurrection just before He ascended to heaven...


Acts 1:6-8 [brackets mine]
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem [capital of Southern House], and in all Judaea, and in Samaria [the former capital of Northern House, by Omri], and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


So even after the Messiah's resurrection Israel wasn't restored...you make a great point though because recall that even Solomon referenced the promise to David in 1 Kings 8:25 (before Jeremiah)

25 Therefore now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.


...but I think what I've underlined in the passage is the key. The throne of United Israel must first exist. As long as that throne exists David will have descendant on it.

I think Jeremiah shows Israel being remarried though, prior to the Babylonian exile, and notwithstanding marital Law,
and that Israel and Judah return together as a unity from the exile:

Jeremiah 3:11 The Lord said to me, “Faithless Israel is more righteous than unfaithful Judah. 12 Go, proclaim this message toward the north:

“‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will frown on you no longer,
for I am faithful,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will not be angry forever.
13 Only acknowledge your guilt—
you have rebelled against the Lord your God,
you have scattered your favors to foreign gods
under every spreading tree,
and have not obeyed me,’”
declares the Lord.

14 “Return, faithless people,” declares the Lord, “for I am your husband. I will choose you—one from a town and two from a clan—and bring you to Zion.
15 Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding. 16 In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land,” declares the Lord, “people will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of the Lord.’ It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made. 17 At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the Lord, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the Lord. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts. 18 In those days the people of Judah will join the people of Israel, and together they will come from a northern land to the land I gave your ancestors as an inheritance.

 

[AandW]

But wait the "man of sin" has not been revealed nor has the 70th week of Daniel begun. Therefore your theory that the "gap" has been completed May 14, 1948 cannot possibly be true....

My Theory is that there was [Never] a Gap Theory in the mind of God to begin with. Theoretically speaking here, by taking the [Very Words] of Christ, Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand...let's concentrate on this portion [stand in the holy place].

stand in the holy place. This just means as simple as having Gentile person standing in the Holy Place rather than a Jewish High Priest is an Abomination. The Romans who destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. were inside the Temple and Holy of Hollies. That classifies as an abomination because the Romans are Gentiles, not Levite High Priest.

Christ just said for this to be an abomination, it just had to STAND in the Holy Place.

That clearly would have happened during the Temple seize and then destruction.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The throne of David was really established in heaven after Christ resurrected from the dead.

This is a commonly held erroneous idea. The throne on which Christ is seated in Heaven is His own throne (at the right hand of the Father), not that of David. So let's look at those verses again:

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne... 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

It is only after Christ makes His enemies His "footstool" (destroys them) that He establishes the throne of David on earth (see Ezekiel). And even though we get the impression that Christ will sit on David's throne, what is really meant is that (a) Christ has every right to the throne of David as King of Israel and "son of David" but (2) since Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords, He allows David to be "prince" or "king" over Israel under Him. That also establishes the throne of David.

And thine house [David] and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. (2 Sam 7:16)
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one Shepherd [Christ]: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. (Ezek 37:24)

 

[GaryA]

How can I know what bearing it has unless I know what it means?
I totally accept what it says - at the end of 69 weeks an anointed one will be cut off -

I don't really see how you can make those things fit the 70th week.

It does not say that. (The 'timing' of your statement is in error.)

The answer you seek is fully explained here:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

I posted this link earlier in this thread.

Have you read it?

 

[OldSage]

It does not say that. (The 'timing' of your statement is in error.)

The answer you seek is fully explained here:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

I posted this link earlier in this thread.

Have you read it?

It does say that, if one accepts that the initial 7 weeks are followed by the 62 weeks

25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing,

 

[Yahshua]

17 At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the Lord, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the Lord. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts. 18 In those days the people of Judah will join the people of Israel, and together they will come from a northern land to the land I gave your ancestors as an inheritance.

Hmm... If we say that all of Israel returned in fulfillment of this passage (particularly the section in red), why was Jerusalem destroyed in 70 AD? Wouldn't the section in red contradict the sin of stubbornly rejecting the Messiah?

I believe this passage is still future.