50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Interesting. In the definition of the word I counted the word "up" 4 times. Are you getting the picture?[/QUOTE]
Those are not part of the words definition. Those are translation choices. When the dead resurrect they stand up but do not rise up into the air as you are suggesting.
Scripture is clear that is where they resurrect. There is no scripture that says they resurrect in the clouds.
The living are not resurrected. The dead resurrect and DESCEND from heaven to the clouds. The living ASCEND up to the clouds. You are confusing resurrection with rapture/going upwards physically. Resurrection only means to stand up ie: a living physical person NOT to move upwards like in a rapture.
Those are not part of the words definition. Those are translation choices. When the dead resurrect they stand up but do not rise up into the air as you are suggesting.
Scripture is clear that is where they resurrect. There is no scripture that says they resurrect in the clouds.
The living are not resurrected. The dead resurrect and DESCEND from heaven to the clouds. The living ASCEND up to the clouds. You are confusing resurrection with rapture/going upwards physically. Resurrection only means to stand up ie: a living physical person NOT to move upwards like in a rapture.
Not sure that is right.
It seems that what was bothering the Corinthians was what happens to those whose physical body has rotted away.
Obviously God raises the body intact - and transfigures it.
Please don't ask me if that happens as a 1-2 or simultaneously because I have not got a clue.
It seems that what was bothering the Corinthians was what happens to those whose physical body has rotted away.
Obviously God raises the body intact - and transfigures it.
Please don't ask me if that happens as a 1-2 or simultaneously because I have not got a clue.
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Nope. The dead in Christ receive new bodies that are in heaven rather than have their old bodies changed.
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
He speaks of the mortal body being dissolved and a new body that is waiting in heaven. Clearly that is not bringing the dissolved body back to life and changing it which would eliminate the need for the new body in heaven that he mentions.
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
He speaks of the mortal body being dissolved and a new body that is waiting in heaven. Clearly that is not bringing the dissolved body back to life and changing it which would eliminate the need for the new body in heaven that he mentions.
Those are not part of the words definition. Those are translation choices. When the dead resurrect they stand up but do not rise up into the air as you are suggesting.[/QUOTE]
Of course they are. Choices made by scholars in Greek. Of which neither you nor I are.
Still haven't proven that the dead receive their new bodies while in heaven. The plain reading of 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Cor 15:23 indicate that they get theirs in the air in the clouds.
Then please quote these clear Scriptures that tell us WHERE they get their new bodies.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Do you want to argue with Paul? The verse says quite clearly that "those who belong to Him" are in the first resurrection "WHEN HE COMES".
What it doesn't say is "the dead are resurrected BEFORE Jesus comes, and THEN the living are raptured WHEN He comes". Which is what you are pushing.
1 Cor 15-
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Nothing here about anyone receiving new bodies in a different place than others.
1 Thess 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
v.14 clear tells us the STATE the dead believers are in when they come with Jesus: "fallen asleep". Certainly this cannot refer to their souls, but their bodies, still in the ground. If they received their new bodies BEFORE the trip to earth, this verse couldn't have been written as it was. They would be in their new bodies and no longer "fallen asleep".
v.15 re-emphasizes the FACT that the dead believer's bodies are STILL "asleep". They HAVEN'T been resurrected YET.
v.16 states who gets their new bodies first, the dead believers, who came with Christ.
v.17 states who gets their new bodies next, the living believers who hadn't died yet.
Word games. Resurrection and rapture have the same action applied to them. It's just that the first applies to dead believers and the second to living believers.
1 Cor 15:42 - So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
These verses clearly show that both the dead and living believers receive the SAME KIND of body, an imperishable one.
Nope. The dead descend from heaven to the clouds and are resurrected. The verses I've quoted prove that.
And are changed into the SAME KIND OF BODY that the dead get also in the clouds.
This is immaterial to your theory. Both the dead and living believers get their new imperishable bodies in the clouds.
Of course they are. Choices made by scholars in Greek. Of which neither you nor I are.
Still haven't proven that the dead receive their new bodies while in heaven. The plain reading of 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Cor 15:23 indicate that they get theirs in the air in the clouds.
Then please quote these clear Scriptures that tell us WHERE they get their new bodies.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Do you want to argue with Paul? The verse says quite clearly that "those who belong to Him" are in the first resurrection "WHEN HE COMES".
What it doesn't say is "the dead are resurrected BEFORE Jesus comes, and THEN the living are raptured WHEN He comes". Which is what you are pushing.
1 Cor 15-
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Nothing here about anyone receiving new bodies in a different place than others.
1 Thess 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
v.14 clear tells us the STATE the dead believers are in when they come with Jesus: "fallen asleep". Certainly this cannot refer to their souls, but their bodies, still in the ground. If they received their new bodies BEFORE the trip to earth, this verse couldn't have been written as it was. They would be in their new bodies and no longer "fallen asleep".
v.15 re-emphasizes the FACT that the dead believer's bodies are STILL "asleep". They HAVEN'T been resurrected YET.
v.16 states who gets their new bodies first, the dead believers, who came with Christ.
v.17 states who gets their new bodies next, the living believers who hadn't died yet.
Word games. Resurrection and rapture have the same action applied to them. It's just that the first applies to dead believers and the second to living believers.
1 Cor 15:42 - So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
These verses clearly show that both the dead and living believers receive the SAME KIND of body, an imperishable one.
Nope. The dead descend from heaven to the clouds and are resurrected. The verses I've quoted prove that.
And are changed into the SAME KIND OF BODY that the dead get also in the clouds.
This is immaterial to your theory. Both the dead and living believers get their new imperishable bodies in the clouds.
Some of you are so confused, that you do not even know it. Some of you, have proven that you do not even read our Posts or the scripture they contain. Maybe the Solution is to let you wonder around in the darkness, until you are willing to come to the Light.
RAPTURE:
The Rapture, happens FAST, 7 years or more, before Christ decides to put an end to man's day. (1 Thes 5:9-11, Rev 3:10-11, Luke 17:24)
In the Rapture only Truly Born Again Believers are CAUGHT UP, and we get our GLORIFIED BODIES. (1 Cor 15:51-54, John 3:2-3)
We are Raptured to go to the WEDDING OF THE LAMB in HEAVEN, (Mat 9:15, Mat 25:1-13, Wedding Supper happens After, Rev 19:6-9)
and will be there for the entire Seven Years, while GOD pours out HIS WRATH ON EARTH. (Mat 25:1-13, 1 Thes 4:13-18)
SECOND COMING:
The Second COMING happens SO SLOWLY, all the world's ARMIES gather in ISRAEL to put an end to them, & to STOP HIM. (Zech 14:1-21)
HE COMES to make WAR on the nations that attack ISREAL, and protect the 144,000. (Rev. 19:11-21, Zech 14:3-5)
We get to come from HEAVEN WITH HIM: (Zech 14:5, Rev. 19:14)
HE COMES TO WHIPE OUT ALL RESISTANCE, AND TO ESTABLISH HE IS NOW KING OF ALL THE EARTH.
Zechariah 14:9 (HCSB)
9 On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
Revelation 20:4-6 (HCSB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
The verses that I just quoted prove that both the dead and living get their new bodies in the clouds.
Again, Paul identifies the STATE that the dead believers are in when they come with Jesus in 1 Thess 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
These 2 verses prove that the dead STILL have bodies that have "fallen asleep" when they come with Jesus.
Here is commentary on 2 Cor 5:1 from "free Bible commentaries" on the web:
▣ "we have a building from God" This is a permanent building (cf. John 14:2-3; Heb. 11:10) compared with a moveable, transient tent (cf. Heb. 11:9). This is a PRESENT TENSE. Paul is stating a prophetic truth as if it were a current reality.
▣ "house not made with hands" Our new bodies will be spiritual (cf. 1 Cor. 15:35-49), like Jesus' (cf. Mark 14:58; 1 John 3:2).
▣ "eternal in the heavens" This is referring to the dwelling place of God. The term "heaven" is PLURAL because the rabbis debated over how many "heavens" there were. In Genesis 1 the term heaven refers to the atmosphere above the earth. So the rabbis used their knowledge of biblical numerology to assert a third heaven or a seventh heaven as the place where God dwelt.
Nothing about anyone receiving their spiritual bodies in heaven.
Again, Paul identifies the STATE that the dead believers are in when they come with Jesus in 1 Thess 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
These 2 verses prove that the dead STILL have bodies that have "fallen asleep" when they come with Jesus.
Here is commentary on 2 Cor 5:1 from "free Bible commentaries" on the web:
▣ "we have a building from God" This is a permanent building (cf. John 14:2-3; Heb. 11:10) compared with a moveable, transient tent (cf. Heb. 11:9). This is a PRESENT TENSE. Paul is stating a prophetic truth as if it were a current reality.
▣ "house not made with hands" Our new bodies will be spiritual (cf. 1 Cor. 15:35-49), like Jesus' (cf. Mark 14:58; 1 John 3:2).
▣ "eternal in the heavens" This is referring to the dwelling place of God. The term "heaven" is PLURAL because the rabbis debated over how many "heavens" there were. In Genesis 1 the term heaven refers to the atmosphere above the earth. So the rabbis used their knowledge of biblical numerology to assert a third heaven or a seventh heaven as the place where God dwelt.
Nothing about anyone receiving their spiritual bodies in heaven.
[QUOTE="VCO, post: 4590144, member: 178202"
RAPTURE:
The Rapture, happens FAST, 7 years or more, before Christ decides to put an end to man's day. (1 Thes 5:9-11, Rev 3:10-11, Luke 17:24)
[/QUOTE]
Yet, NONE of these cited passages even hint that Jesus takes the raptured believers to heaven. And there are NO other passages that indicate that Jesus takes the resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
So all you are doing is assuming/presuming/guessing/hoping.
Yes, this true.
And...once again, None of these passages says there will be any raptured believers in heaven.
Yes, this is true.
Here is a pretribber quoting from a passage that clearly proves that believers are resurrected POST trib. v.4.
RAPTURE:
The Rapture, happens FAST, 7 years or more, before Christ decides to put an end to man's day. (1 Thes 5:9-11, Rev 3:10-11, Luke 17:24)
[/QUOTE]
Yet, NONE of these cited passages even hint that Jesus takes the raptured believers to heaven. And there are NO other passages that indicate that Jesus takes the resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
So all you are doing is assuming/presuming/guessing/hoping.
Yes, this true.
And...once again, None of these passages says there will be any raptured believers in heaven.
Yes, this is true.
Here is a pretribber quoting from a passage that clearly proves that believers are resurrected POST trib. v.4.
Nothing states that. The only verses that we have for this shows Christ leaving heaven and the dead resurrecting which places that resurrection in heaven before they follow Christ:
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
From these verses we have an order of events:
1. Christ leaving heaven.
2. The dead in Christ resurrecting which places that in heaven.
3. The living raptured to the clouds to meet the resurrected dead and Christ.
That proves the resurrection happened before reaching the clouds. It's a minor issue but I think even small things need to be worked out correctly.
You stopped short and should have gone to the next verses which clarify when the dead stop being dead.
No surprise there as most do not understand where the resurrection takes place just like most don't understand the timeframe of the rapture.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
From these verses we have an order of events:
1. Christ leaving heaven.
2. The dead in Christ resurrecting which places that in heaven.
3. The living raptured to the clouds to meet the resurrected dead and Christ.
That proves the resurrection happened before reaching the clouds. It's a minor issue but I think even small things need to be worked out correctly.
You stopped short and should have gone to the next verses which clarify when the dead stop being dead.
No surprise there as most do not understand where the resurrection takes place just like most don't understand the timeframe of the rapture.
FreeGrace2 said:
The verses that I just quoted prove that both the dead and living get their new bodies in the clouds.
Of course "nothing states that". I never said anything "states that". What are you looking for? Specific wording of verses or something? The verse I quoted show that the believers already in heaven (because they had already died) come with Christ to the clouds in the air, and are described as the "dead in Christ". How does that description fit for believers with imperishable bodies? It doesn't. And that was my point.
Nothing here supports your claim. In fact, the opposite is true.
Now, this time, please PAY ATTENTION.
v.16 describes the residents of heaven as "the dead in Christ". If they get their new bodies in heaven, which are imperishable, John failed to convey that. Instead, he describes them as THE DEAD in Christ. Not what you'd expect for believers with imperishable bodies.
If you theory were correct, v.16 would have been written differently. Something on the lines of this:
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the resurrected in Christ shall come with Him.
This is merely your assumption/presumption.
Sure. They got to the clouds and were resurrected then.
you've proven nothing. v.16 sinks your boat.
Quote that verse then.
The verses that I just quoted prove that both the dead and living get their new bodies in the clouds.
Of course "nothing states that". I never said anything "states that". What are you looking for? Specific wording of verses or something? The verse I quoted show that the believers already in heaven (because they had already died) come with Christ to the clouds in the air, and are described as the "dead in Christ". How does that description fit for believers with imperishable bodies? It doesn't. And that was my point.
Nothing here supports your claim. In fact, the opposite is true.
Now, this time, please PAY ATTENTION.
v.16 describes the residents of heaven as "the dead in Christ". If they get their new bodies in heaven, which are imperishable, John failed to convey that. Instead, he describes them as THE DEAD in Christ. Not what you'd expect for believers with imperishable bodies.
If you theory were correct, v.16 would have been written differently. Something on the lines of this:
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the resurrected in Christ shall come with Him.
This is merely your assumption/presumption.
Sure. They got to the clouds and were resurrected then.
you've proven nothing. v.16 sinks your boat.
Quote that verse then.
Rev 20:5 states that the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousands years were complete and that these are those not included in the 'first resurrection.' Previously, Rev 20:3 stated that the dragon who, according to Heb 2:14, had the power of death, is bound a thousand years, and after that, he must be released for a short time. And, sandwiched between Rev 20: 3 & 5, is Rev 20:4's statement that the souls of those beheaded and who had not received the mark coming to life and reigning with Christ for a thousand years.
So then, when the thousand years are complete, the rest of the dead come to life, and the dragon is released for a short time, although not necessarily in that order. I think these very well likely could be those gathered for battle, as I'm not convinced anyone will die while Satan is bound, i.e. unless he is, indeed by Christ who holds the keys to death and hades, accursed as per Isaiah 65's context, it seems to me, is expressed with hyperbolic literary device such as an infant dying a hundred years old, is of a new heaven and new earth wherein Rev 21:1 is footnoted.
I welcome any constructive criticism of this view that it might help me to either strengthen or discard my position to rubble, but I'm just about sure it is solid structurally.
So then, when the thousand years are complete, the rest of the dead come to life, and the dragon is released for a short time, although not necessarily in that order. I think these very well likely could be those gathered for battle, as I'm not convinced anyone will die while Satan is bound, i.e. unless he is, indeed by Christ who holds the keys to death and hades, accursed as per Isaiah 65's context, it seems to me, is expressed with hyperbolic literary device such as an infant dying a hundred years old, is of a new heaven and new earth wherein Rev 21:1 is footnoted.
I welcome any constructive criticism of this view that it might help me to either strengthen or discard my position to rubble, but I'm just about sure it is solid structurally.
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