50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

Absolutely
You are absolutely wrong Jesus was not talking about the deciplles to flee Jerusalem before some little tin hatted general was coming. Jesus knew the future He knwe that the only 1 of the deciples would be alive at that time and he was on Patmos. Jsus states clearly in Mark 13 there shall not be one stone left standing. There are stones still standing today. You should be taking a look at history God gives it to us so that we can learn from it. Noaha's flood God caused that to happen to cleans the earth from the sons of God that left their place of habitation because they saw that the daughters of Adam were fair. You find this in the 6th chapter of Genesis and the book of Jude. The sons of God (angels). There was no 50% of the people raptured away before the flood. Genesis 6:19 And of all living things of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring upon the ark, to keep them alive with thee, they shall be male and female. Lets use a little common sence here. Noah and his family were perfect in their geneaolgy; in other words they had not intermarried with other races. they could not have been the only people on the ark. My wife and I had 4 bautiful children we are white all of our children are white. We could have had 40 more children and not one of them would have been anyother race than white. 2 of my children married a person of a different race their children took on the trates of both races. That is what was going on in the days of Noaha angles left their home heaven without being born of woman(of water) and had children they were hybrids, giants, Nephilim. Again I will say that their was not 50% of the people raptured away. That is just false teaching.

Huh?
You have tons of info removed from the table.
1) in lot and noah THE INLAWS STAYED. ..(family)
2) IT IS 50% of FAMILY in the "one taken/left" as well as the virgin parable that are left behind.
3) NOTHING of the assumption or ascribing of "wicked" to the foolish virgins or the " one taken" fits
That is strictly made up. NOTHING points to it....nothing.

In the 10 virgins half righteous removed

In the one taken/left half righteous removed.

The "glaring mistake" most all on this board make is "tares gathered first".

That mishap of application IS THE BASES for REFRAMING those RAPTURE VERSES i mentioned above.

Hello....Jesus even said concerning the tares "the harvest is at the end of the world"
That alone should be enough to stop reframing the rapture verses.

But there is more....Even without Jesus explicitly destroying the tares dynamic, we KNOW FOR A FACT. you guys are off because the tares are burned.( lof)
Hello....that is AFTER THE MIL.
TARES<> BURNED AFTER THE MIL.(LOF)
GATHERED AFTER THE MIL.

There is a verse. Where the tares are gathered last.( yet another huge destructing of the tares error)

The whole tares thingy ( where all have been led down a rabbit trail) is a non issue.
Doctrines actually built on a nothing burger.....SMH

I am definitely biblical and i check out everything

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nowhere in the bible is the second coming on horses depicted as the rapture.

Here are some "dots to be connected":

2 Thess 2:1 says the Second Advent and the rapture occur together.

Rev 19:11-21 is about King Jesus coming to earth at the Second Advent on a white horse to defeat Satan's armies at the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Absolutely]

We both read the Bible. It depends on your interpretation. I believe Christian Jews were called, by Jesus, to watch for this coming event in 70 AD. How do I know this? I know this because Jesus was saying this while the Law was still in effect. That had to be largely for Jewish believers, since the Gentile Church was not yet born.

Was this about 70 AD? I believe so. Why do I know this? I know it because the Olivet Discourse began with Jesus' statement that the temple was going to be demolished--a very, very big deal at the time. It was the end of the Jews' religion under the Law, which had been going since about 1500 BC!

The Romans came twice, once in 66 AD and again in 70 AD. The 2nd time they came they demolished the temple, and took away Jewish captives. They left some Jews to manage the fields for them. None of this has a thing to do with the Rapture of the international Church!



It's possible I missed your intent. But I dodged nothing!



It is absolutely possible that Jesus came metaphorically in judgment, though certainly not physically. For example, in the OT God is said to come in judgment when He brought major judgments to either Israel or to their enemies. And in Luke 17, Jesus indicated he is coming in the context of 70 AD with respect to bringing judging against the Jewish People. He also said he would bring judgment when in the book of Revelation he said he was coming to judge those in the 7 churches who wouldn't repent.



No, I memorized the chapter many years ago. I didn't miss any of the questions. It's phrased in different ways in all 3 Gospel accounts. The Disciples wanted to know what would happen to Israel if indeed their religion was to be destroyed. They knew Messiah was supposed to come and save Israel--not destroy Israel. And so, they wanted to know how these things fit together and how they fit into a timeline.

Jesus answered by saying it would happen in their generation. Then a long period of tribulation would begin for the Jewish People. Finally, this tribulation would end with Messiah coming back to save those who were faithful and to save the nation itself.



I don't think Jesus shifted the dialogue at all. He just answered the questions. He informed the Disciples *when* the destruction of the temple would take place. It would be in their generation. And he began by talking about the preliminary events that would portend this event, the initial "birth pains."

Finally, he explains that at the end of a long terrible period of tribulation for the Jewish People, their salvation would finally come at his coming from the clouds. It is a reference to Daniel 7, where the Son of Man comes with the clouds to save Israel from the Antichrist.



The Flood represents death for sin. We are all saved from death for sin *before* that death happens. We can be saved today!

Jesus referenced the Flood as a warning to Israel that they also would be inundated under God's judgment for rejecting the Messiah, who was a kind of "Noah" in their own day. He was warning them to repent, and knew they wouldn't largely do this. Therefore, they would be inundated and destroyed.

This is a comparison to the judgment the Jews knew would come in the last days to destroy their enemies. But Jesus was saying it would encompass the Jews, as well, in his own day.

Certainly, the Flood of Noah represents the last day judgment of the world. But Jesus meant to apply it also to the judgment about to take place in Israel in his own generation. The only ones delivered from this judgment were those disciples who believed Jesus and escaped when they saw the Roman Army, the "Abomination of Desolation."

And yes, they did escape *before* the conflagration. This was not a Pretrib Rapture, but rather, an escape from judgment while these things took place on the earth.

When one begins to "spiritualize" dynamics where does it end?
Who decides?

All that stuff you are believing is not IMO biblical.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have such a advantage in that i do not need context eliminated.

Here is the pretrib rapture vividly depicted.;

Mat 24
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh./QUOTE]
lol. Aren't you aware that v.40 FOLLOWS the Trib? It is describing the Second Coming, which is clearly noted in v.29,30.

I have yet to see anyone acknowledge the context.

....not a one of you

You have NOT acknowledged the clear words of 2 Thess 2:1. So please stop with the braggadocia.

Oh...and the biggie,
...that dialogue is framed PRETRIB....(BEFORE THE FLOOD)

Just more spiritualizing things again. lol

The issue has never been the flood anyway. It's just about being ready for His return. During the trib, things will be obviously bad, and the faith of some can be weakened or worse. That's why the Bible says those who endure to the end (of the Trib) will be saved.

This isn't about the possibility of losing one's salvation. It's about enduring to the end so as to be in the rapture. Which is at the END of the Trib.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am definitely biblical and i check out everything

Then check out 2 Thess 2:1. Please.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When one begins to "spiritualize" dynamics where does it end?
Who decides?

All that stuff you are believing is not IMO biblical.

I've been saying that exact same thing about your spiritualizing things.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Could you point me to any verses that clearly indicate that anyone "departs" the earth when raptured? Thanks.

Precious friend, you are Very Welcome!:

1Th 4:16 "For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with
a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of
God: and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first:"

1Th 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be
CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds, to meet
The LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with The LORD."

Precious friend @ FG2, IF THIS is NOT "Departing AWAY from" the earth,
then I will be Greatly Looking Forward to your Definition?

Who or what (it) will be "taken out"?

The Body Of CHRIST!

Let's be clear. Everyone knows that Jesus will be bringing ALL dead believers with Him.

Sorry, that is NOT "clear.":

1Th 4:14 " For if we believe that JESUS Died and Rose again,
even so them also which SLEEP In JESUS Will God Bring with Him."

to be continued...

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Part II The Body Of CHRIST "Departing AWAY from" the earth!

So, if He takes them, plus all the living believers up to heaven, that IS a U-turn theology, since going back to heaven if FAR MORE of a U-turn than going up to the clouds and then back to earth.

I look forward to your answers. Thanks.

The achilles heel of your theory is that NONE of the actual rapture verses indicate that any resurrected and raptured believers are removed from earth and taken to heaven.

I used to think that too. But since the Bema is 1,000 yrs before the GWT judgment, only unbelievers will be there, in the "second resurrection" and will be facing the "second death".

think it's clear from 1 Thess 4 that Jesus brings all the saints in heaven to the clouds where He and them meet the living believers in the air and ALL believers receive their imperishable bodies, the dead first.

Question for everyone that thanks Jesus is going to come and take us to heaven. Why would Jesus take us to heaven when He is going to set up His kingdom here on earth. Zechariah 14:4

Precious friend(s), Zec 14:4 {Dan, Mat, & Rev} are for earthly ISRAEL! However:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2 : 15!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

"us" Being The Body Of CHRIST {Rom-Phm KJB!}, have a HEAVENLY hope!

God Did "Create the HEAVEN, And the earth" (Gen), And Will "Create a NEW
HEAVEN And earth" (Rev), Correct? Ever thought about "HIS Purpose for EACH"?:

Part 7: Great GRACE Departure!:

God's HEAVENLY UPlook For HIS Body!: ​

Grace And Peace! Notice, when God's Word Is Rightly Divided, Bringing
God's Approval Upon All Diligent Bible students!, we "understand The
Heavenly Context" Of The "Hidden In God" ( Ephesians_3 : 9! ) Mystery,

That HE:

"Revealed From HEAVEN !" ( 2_Corinthians_12 : 2! ), for us
TODAY, { "But NOW!..." ( Romans_3 : 21, 6 : 22, 7 : 6, 16 : 26;
1_Corinthians 12 : 18, 20, 15 : 20; Galatians_4 : 9; Ephesians_2 : 13, 5 : 8! ) }

To "our" GRACE apostle, Paul! ( Romans_11 : 13 cp Romans_15 : 16-18, 16 : 25! ):

The saints of today To "whom God Has Directly Addressed" Romans - Philemon:

...have a building ETERNAL in the HEAVENS..." ( 2_Corinthians 5 : 1 KJB! )
...our house which is From HEAVEN..." ( 2_Corinthians 5 : 2 KJB! )

{Yes, I do give "thanks {to} JESUS" I am going THERE! You, Precious friend(s)?}

Are "Blessed With All spiritual blessings In
HEAVENLY Places In CHRIST!" ( Ephesians_1 : 3 KJB! )

CHRIST Is Now Raised From the dead, And Set At The Right
Hand Of Majesty, In HEAVENLY Places! ( Ephesians_1 : 20 KJB! )

God "Hath Raised us up together, And Made us Sit Together
In HEAVENLY Places In CHRIST JESUS!" ( Ephesians_2 : 6 KJB! )

"For our conversation ( Citizenship ) Is In HEAVEN; from Whence also
we look for The Saviour, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!" ( Philippians_3 : 20 KJB! )
{Precious friend, @ theWatchman:

Are you "looking for anti-christ" First? Why?}​

"For The Hope Which Is Laid Up For you In HEAVEN, Whereof ye heard
before in The Word Of The Truth Of The Gospel! ( Colossians_1 : 5 KJB! )

And The Lord Shall Deliver me from every evil work, and Will
Preserve me unto HIS HEAVENLY kingdom: to Whom be Glory
for ever and ever. Amen. (2_Timothy 4 : 18 KJB!)

All Praise, Honor, And Glory Belong To HIM!! Amen?

Conclusion:
Thus, All saints In The Body Of CHRIST Today "should" Have, And Be
Getting Prepared For This HEAVENLY Hope That Is Laid Up For us!
+
Judgment in 1_Corinthians 3:7-15 KJB!, Correct?

Be Blessed!

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Could you point me to any verses that clearly indicate that anyone "departs" the earth when raptured? Thanks.

Precious friend, you are Very Welcome!:

1Th 4:16 "For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with
a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of
God: and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first:"

1Th 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be
CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds, to meet
The LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with The LORD."

Precious friend @ FG2, IF THIS is NOT "Departing AWAY from" the earth,
then I will be Greatly Looking Forward to your Definition?

Gladly! The verse doesn't say "departs or (ing) AWAY from the earth. It says being caught up together with them in the clouds, in the air. That's all.

My question was perhaps poorly worded. When I said "departs earth" I meant leaving earth FOR heaven. For that is the sole issue in a pretrib rapture.

That all resurrected and raptured believers are taken from earth to heaven to wait out the Trib, and then coming back to earth with Christ at His Second Advent.

I have found no rapture verses that say that believers will be resurrected/raptured and taken to heaven.

So, yes, living believers do go into the clouds, in the air, to meet Jesus and company, but there is nothing about continuing on to heaven. That's what I was looking for.

FreeGrace2 said:
Who or what (it) will be "taken out"?

The Body Of CHRIST!

No, not "taken out" but taken up for rapture. Nothing about continuing on to heaven.

FreeGrace2 said:
Let's be clear. Everyone knows that Jesus will be bringing ALL dead believers with Him.

Sorry, that is NOT "clear.":

1Th 4:14 " For if we believe that JESUS Died and Rose again,
even so them also which SLEEP In JESUS Will God Bring with Him."

to be continued...

Well, that's kinda weird. Paul wrote this, regarding the resurrection:

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

I can't imagine that "those who belong to Him" doesn't include ALL believers from Adam on. Why wouldn't it? Please advise.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Part II The Body Of CHRIST "Departing AWAY from" the earth!

Precious friend(s), Zec 14:4 {Dan, Mat, & Rev} are for earthly ISRAEL!

No, John was real clear about to whom he was writing to in Revelation.

ch 1-3 was to the churches. That's plural of the singular "church". Some try to twist "churches" into some kind of hodge podge mess where apostates and unbeliever lurk. Nope. In John's day, the only recorded unsaved people that went to NT churches were "false brethren". Just imposters.

They didn't have liberal churches back then. Unbelievers were evangelized outside churches and then brought in.

And Rev 22:16 says: “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony FOR the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

The NT church bookends Revelation. It is DEFINITELY for the churches. The epistle begins with the churches and ends with the churches. Saved people. NT people.

Any Jew who believes in Jesus is a new creation, a brother in Christ.

Since John's epistle was directed to NT churches (saved people) everything in it was given to NT churches. There was no message for the unsaved. The message was to saved people about what the unsaved people will experience in the Trib.

 

[GaryA]

That was a type-o...thousand years should have just been "the"...I have software that types "thousand years" when I type "th" as a shortcut.

Perhaps you might consider changing it to 'ty'...?

 

[GaryA]

When I first started reading the Bible, end times eschatology wasn't even a thought. When I finally saw it, it was clear the plain reading of text clearly demonstrates post-trib rapture and yes it can be found in just a few verses.

My point stands... If there was a verse that just says Jesus returns before the tribulation to rapture the church you'd have a golden ticket and this wouldn't even be a debate.

It can be proven that Jesus returns after the tribulation to perform the first resurrection and rapture. What isn't clear about this?

Cognitive Dissonance has a way of muddling the mind...

 

[GaryA]

I appreciate your attempt, but it doesn't work for me.

{ Sorry to hear that. However, it still may work for others. }

I have created files that can be copied and pasted for ease and speed.

{ And I can simply give a link that anyone can follow to see the information represented. }

The chart you directed me to was too large.

{ Yes - and that is why the link was given... }

Well, there's the rub. By "meaningful way" you are revealing your bias with the verses. And your take on timing or order.

{ It is a representation of the associations that I make between the different verses/passages. }

I don't need charts to show what verses say.

{ I don't either. But, it sure helps when creating an overview of the information contained in many verses/passages. }

Your chart is just another way to "explain" what you think the verses mean.

{ Exactly. That is what I said... }

I just copy and paste from files of lists of verses to demonstrate what Scripture says.

Okay - you do what works for you.


I personally find very helpful - and want others to have the same advantage.

 

[ewq1938]

If the dead believers get their new bodies IN heaven before the trip to earth, why would Paul have written "rise up"?

He said "rise" not rise up" and it comes from this Greek word:

G450
ἀνίστημι
anistēmi
an-is'-tay-mee
From G303 and G2476; to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).
Total KJV occurrences: 112

It simply means to "stand up" as in a body being able to stand up. When the bodiless dead in heaven resurrect, they receive that new physical body and they can indeed stand up physically again. They do not leaven heaven as spirits, enter their dead bodies and resurrect then join the rapture to be changed in the clouds. What happens is Christ leaves heaven, then the dead "rise" because they receive the new body then they also leave heaven to follow Christ to the clouds where the living will be raptured to. That's why Paul wrote this:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

If the dead and living are raptured at the same time then this verse makes no sense but if the dead are with Christ already, then the raptured living saints meet with Christ the verse makes perfect sense.

 

[GaryA]

It's also not a hodge podge of events that have been thoroughly mixed and all out of order. Most of Revelation is literal, but with figures of speech and descriptions that John could not possibly be technically accurate about.

I [generally] totally agree. Not just a mixture. There are patterns. There are overlaps. Not simply a chronological series of events.

You already said that, and I showed that the trumpet judgments occur as a result of the ANGELS who sound the trumpets.

The angels blow trumpets in the vision. You have to interpret what John saw. Not everything John saw is literal in reality. You cannot assume that an actual angel will blow an actual trumpet. It might happen, but you should never assume it to be fact and base something else on it. This is how people fall into error. You must learn what you can and cannot make assumptions about.

Even so - could an angel blow a trumpet as the Two Witnesses cause something to happen?

Too many people get hung up on all of the wrong details.

The 'events' in Revelation are literal; some of the 'details' in the vision - not necessarily.

The 'details' in the vision are there to help you understand the vision; however, the moment you assume they exist in reality just like they do in the vision, you risk error.

In fact, the Bible is quite clear about that. I wonder why you keep thinking that the 2 Witnesses cause the specific trumpet judgments. They begin BEFORE the 2 Witnesses appear. It's the LAST of the trumpet judgments that coincides with the final bowl judgments.

This shows that the 2 Witnesses' ministry begins at the end of the first half of the Trib and ends at the end of the second half of the Trib. Compare ch 11 with ch 16.

Too many people assume certain things they assume to be facts - and then, wrap their eschatology around it. Then, they remain in error - because they refuse to let go of those assumptions.

Things like:

7 year trib
first half
last half
seals, trumpets, and vials are all GT

(Not suggesting what you believe - just giving examples.)

A great deal of what most people's eschatology is wrapped around are these types of assumptions.

If you are going to understand the true order of events - you must must MUST forget about all of those things and look at scripture with only these three questions in mind:

1) What happens before what?
2) What happens after what?
3) What happens at the same time as what?

And then, compare the literal 'details'.

It is all of those assumptions that throw people off so easily.

I built my Order of Events chart strictly on these three questions and nothing else.

 

[ewq1938]

The Bible does not mention where the reign will occur

It does actually:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[GaryA]

So, what exactly is taking time between Matt 24:29 and 30?

The Trumpet Events - which are what is being described in verse 29.

 

[GaryA]

FreeGrace2 said:
I used to think that too. But since the Bema is 1,000 yrs before the GWT judgment, only unbelievers will be there, in the "second resurrection" and will be facing the "second death".

All believers will have been resurrected/raptured when Christ returns at the Second Advent and sets up His Millennial kingdom. So who's left to populate the earth for those 1000 years? All the unbelievers who survived the trib. If the "fourth of the earth" in the 4th horseman's judgment in ch 6 refers to population, and combined with 9:15 saying "a third of mankind will be killed", then at least HAFLF of the earth's population will have been wiped out. Leaving about 3.5 billion people. Quite enough for all the nations to be ruled by Christ in His kingdom.

If mortal believers only enter the Millennium, because all unbelievers are killed (as some here believe) how do you explain the world wide rebellion against the perfect Ruler at the end of the Millennium?


OK, but you must face the reality that the rebellion against Christ will be world wide.

Why? We have more than a clue from Matt 5. Jesus will rule, not by the "letter of the law", but by the "spirit of the law".

iow, murder is motivated by hatred. Those who hate will be held accountable, even before they get to murder someone. So the world of unbelievers will highly resent being held accountable for what they THINK.

But if you have a better explanation of why there will be a world wide rebellion, please share.

All of this may be interesting to think about and discuss - but - it is moot with regard to the point I was making.

There will be mortal people born and live during the Millennium. Some will be saved, and some will be lost.

When will the saved - from the Millennium - have their "BEMA" judgment?

 

[GaryA]

GaryA and FreeGrace I am not sure I compleatly understand. Do you thank that the millennium kingdom is going to be someplace other than here on earth?

In terms of things like 'physics', I believe the Millennium will not be any different than what we experience now. Only, Jesus will rule over it. And, I believe He will do away with a lot of 'technology' - making everyone live in a "simpler" time (comparing to the past).

 

[GaryA]

Absolutely not. Jesus resurrects and raptures ALL believers when He ends the Trib at the battle of Armageddon when He returns at the Second Advent.

The GT ends "well before" the Wrath of God is "dished out" - by Jesus Himself - after He arrives at the Second Coming of Christ.

Rapture happens first - the first thing Jesus does when He comes.

Then Wrath of God.

Armageddon is at/near the end of the Wrath of God.