The second coming of Jesus
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Coming in judgment? ( I believe in a lesser way this is true for people for all time the Lord may come and they may die, so be ready all the time)
Coming in salvation? (Only with the Thesalonians resurrection)
I personally think the text is referring to the "day of the Lord" as one physical pinpoint day.
God's long-suffering until the day of Wrath
no one receives the Judgment of God that they deserve in this life, which is why the wicked are able to flourish but it's temporary
Coming in salvation? (Only with the Thesalonians resurrection)
I personally think the text is referring to the "day of the Lord" as one physical pinpoint day.
God's long-suffering until the day of Wrath
no one receives the Judgment of God that they deserve in this life, which is why the wicked are able to flourish but it's temporary
Wow, this kind of takes me by surprise. I could very well be reading that whole thing wrong and I haven't thought about it that way before. It is sooooooooooo like the Lord to put mysteries before us, conceal the matter and help us search it out. I have got to give this a lot more consideration. You helped me reminding me about the harvesters. They sort the harvest. One sort gathered to the barn, the other sort gathered for burning.
I too am leaning toward ... how do you put it? Gathering of the church, the true church, to me is like calling the sheep out of the world churches into the desert again where God promises to provide ample water and provision to nourish their spirits. Like the Exodus, calling his people out of Egypt. I wonder if that was the whole sign of Exodus? Dragging your people out of a safe environment, even though it is killing their souls, and forcing them into a dry place seemingly to die and demand such faith of them ... Maybe I'm reading too much into it. I don't know.
But I don't discuss this very much because people are very put off by it as many are still very much in churches. There's some very strong, frightening and difficult prophesies about this in Jeremiah and Ezekiel.
I too am leaning toward ... how do you put it? Gathering of the church, the true church, to me is like calling the sheep out of the world churches into the desert again where God promises to provide ample water and provision to nourish their spirits. Like the Exodus, calling his people out of Egypt. I wonder if that was the whole sign of Exodus? Dragging your people out of a safe environment, even though it is killing their souls, and forcing them into a dry place seemingly to die and demand such faith of them ... Maybe I'm reading too much into it. I don't know.
But I don't discuss this very much because people are very put off by it as many are still very much in churches. There's some very strong, frightening and difficult prophesies about this in Jeremiah and Ezekiel.
Hello again, Rev316,
Sorry that I did not comment on that subject in the previous post. The first angel that swings his sickle over the earth is a harvest. However, what type of harvest it is and who is being harvested is not revealed. What we can deduce from this, is that it appears to be neutral, in that it doesn't tell us whether it is a bad harvest, as is the following harvest, or a good harvest. It just says "and the earth was harvested."
The second one is also called a harvest or reaping, but it seems to have to do with Armageddon, which takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where beast and the kings of the earth are gathered together to wage war against Him who sits on the horse and His army (Rev.19:19). We also know that it is a harvest of wrath of living people because of the mention of the Lord trampling the winepress of God's wrath and the mention of blood as high as the horses bridle. However, that reaping cannot have anything to do with the gathering of the church, because that harvest takes place well into God's wrath, which again we are not appointed to suffer. The church will not be on the earth during the time when these plagues of wrath are taking place. It is for the wicked, those who have rejected Christ, the arrogant, the proud, the sexually immoral, etc.
In answer to this, we have to remember that after the church is gone, there will be a group of people who will become believers during the time of God's wrath. This group is introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as that great number which no man can count from every nation, tribe, language and people, which would make them all Gentiles. The fact that the elder asks John who these are and where they came from, demonstrates that this group is not the church, but another group. In response John says that he doesn't know who they are. Then the elder tells him "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation." These are the same who will keep their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not worship the beast, his image and will not receive his mark.
That said, the majority of this group will be killed by the beast. But there will be those who survive through the entire time period until the Lord returns to the earth. These along with the remnant of Israel, will be those who will be allowed to enter the millennial kingdom and who will repopulate the earth, still being in their mortal bodies. The church, the 144,000 and those great tribulation saints who will have been resurrect in Rev.20:4-6, will rule with the Lord on the earth during the millennial kingdom in their immortal and glorified bodies. The wicked will be killed with that double-edged sword when the Lord returns, so none of the wicked will enter into the millennial kingdom (Rev.19:15, 21).
Actually, the scripture says that every knee shall bow, whether in heaven, on the earth and under the earth. So, it is not just referring to the people that enter into the millennial kingdom.
"Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." - Phil.2:9-11
Well, it can't be 'one is taken to a safe place' because as I said in the previous post, the 'one taken' is being compared to the wicked who were taken away in the flood. This demonstrates that the 'one taken' group are the wicked. So they would not be taken to a safe place, but are taken to be killed. Those left are those who will have survived the tribulation and will enter into the millennial kingdom. Those are the wheat in the parable.
May the Lord reveal all of these mysteries to you.
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As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
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So since the 'one taken' group is being compared to those in the flood who were 'taken away' then it cannot be speaking about the righteous being gathered at the rapture. Those who are left will be the remnant of the great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period. These along with Israel, will be those who will enter into the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth. The one's left are also mentioned in Matt.24:31 where the angels will gather the elect from the four corners of the earth and will bring them to the Lord. Many interpret this as the gathering of the church as well, but these are living people that the angels will be gatherings. Note: when the Lord comes to gather His church, angels do not gather us, but will be changed into our immortal and glorified bodies, in power. When that voice that sounds like a trumpet says, "come up here" then we will be changed and caught up to the Lord. No angels involved in that one, except for the voice of the archangel.
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As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
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So since the 'one taken' group is being compared to those in the flood who were 'taken away' then it cannot be speaking about the righteous being gathered at the rapture. Those who are left will be the remnant of the great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period. These along with Israel, will be those who will enter into the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth. The one's left are also mentioned in Matt.24:31 where the angels will gather the elect from the four corners of the earth and will bring them to the Lord. Many interpret this as the gathering of the church as well, but these are living people that the angels will be gatherings. Note: when the Lord comes to gather His church, angels do not gather us, but will be changed into our immortal and glorified bodies, in power. When that voice that sounds like a trumpet says, "come up here" then we will be changed and caught up to the Lord. No angels involved in that one, except for the voice of the archangel.
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Surely the categories are The Knowing VS The Completely Ignorant
At the Flood, The Completely Ignorant were oblivious to what was about to happen.
Same at the 2nd coming - The Completely Ignorant will not be expecting Christ, will not understand
where their workmate has disappeared, will understand nothing.
The metaphor is life as normal one minute. Stop. Judgment and destruction the next.
In fact, regarding the 'taking away'....the Greek word is 'airo' - to elevate, to lift up in the air.
What Jesus is in fact saying is that the flood lifted the boat and the 8 souls up, and away.
Not 'swept the unbelievers away' as I think you are understanding it.
At the Flood, The Completely Ignorant were oblivious to what was about to happen.
Same at the 2nd coming - The Completely Ignorant will not be expecting Christ, will not understand
where their workmate has disappeared, will understand nothing.
The metaphor is life as normal one minute. Stop. Judgment and destruction the next.
In fact, regarding the 'taking away'....the Greek word is 'airo' - to elevate, to lift up in the air.
What Jesus is in fact saying is that the flood lifted the boat and the 8 souls up, and away.
Not 'swept the unbelievers away' as I think you are understanding it.
They weren't ignorant. Noah had been preaching the word of God regarding the coming flood for a hundred years and they didn't believe him.
The context shows that the ark was on the water, so those being taken away by the flood is accurate.
I repeat, the 'one taken' group does not have anything to do with the rapture of the church. The comparison is wicked to wicked for those who are taken.
The context shows that the ark was on the water, so those being taken away by the flood is accurate.
I repeat, the 'one taken' group does not have anything to do with the rapture of the church. The comparison is wicked to wicked for those who are taken.
Fair enough.
The Greek word here is palin simply meaning a reoccurrence.
But just as important in determining a meaning of a word is to see it in it's context, which in this case I believe makes the meaning quite plain...
John 14:1-6 (NASB) "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. "And you know the way where I am going." Thomas *said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
The Greek word here is palin simply meaning a reoccurrence.
But just as important in determining a meaning of a word is to see it in it's context, which in this case I believe makes the meaning quite plain...
John 14:1-6 (NASB) "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. "And you know the way where I am going." Thomas *said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
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h. to take from among the living, either by a natural death, John 17:15 (ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου take away from contact with the world), or by violence, Matthew 24:39; Luke 23:18; John 19:15; Acts 21:36; with the addition of ἀπό τῆς γῆς, Acts 22:22; αἴρεται ἀπό τῆς γῆς ἡ ζῶν αὐτοῦ, of a bloody death inflicted upon one, Acts 8:33 (Isaiah 53:8).
You're just being ridiculous now. The ark was built on dry land. Noah and his family entered the ark. God shut the door and the waters that surround the earth came down, the waters from under the earth came up and the flood came and took all of the wicked away. The 'one taken' group are being compared to the wicked who were taken in the flood. It's very simple to understand.
What is not plausible is that 50% of the earth's population would be gathered by the Lord as those who are taken. Those taken are not the raptured saints.
You're just being ridiculous now. The ark was built on dry land. Noah and his family entered the ark. God shut the door and the waters that surround the earth came down, the waters from under the earth came up and the flood came and took all of the wicked away. The 'one taken' group are being compared to the wicked who were taken in the flood. It's very simple to understand.
What is not plausible is that 50% of the earth's population would be gathered by the Lord as those who are taken. Those taken are not the raptured saints.
airo
- to raise up, elevate, lift up
- to raise from the ground, take up: stones
- to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
- to draw up: a fish
- to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
- to bear away what has been raised, carry off
- to move from its place
- to take off or away what is attached to anything
I can't follow any of the millennial references because there is ZERO understanding in me about that subject matter. For whatever reason, the Lord has not shown any of that to me.
What my understanding always was is very basic:
Day of wrath, no more mercy.
Final judgment; separate sheep from goats.
Heavens rolled up like a scroll.
Eternity in New Jerusalem.
I know no more than that.
But the tribulation, I believe that is ongoing and we are living through it groaning all the while.
What my understanding always was is very basic:
Day of wrath, no more mercy.
Final judgment; separate sheep from goats.
Heavens rolled up like a scroll.
Eternity in New Jerusalem.
I know no more than that.
But the tribulation, I believe that is ongoing and we are living through it groaning all the while.