The second coming of Jesus

[soberxp]

IN THE OT
Ezekiel was the watchman
The trumpets is to warn the people,
but IN THE NT,
The trumpets is to warn the sinner,the believer,and unbeliever.
Ezekiel
Chapter 33
1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take anyperson from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

 

[OldSage]

yeah, well, I don't see Jesus putting His hand on John's shoulder in Revelation.
Where did you see that verse?

Ok, somehwere on his body

9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

 

[OldSage]

In Revelation, John called himself a companion in tribulation. I thought we are all under tribulation at this point, but for sure God's wrath hasn't begun. That whole phase starts with huge earthquakes like none ever experienced on earth. He says he will remove the earth from its foundation by them. Can you imagine what the surface of the planet will be like if it's knocked out of orbit or off its axis? Or maybe I'm just not understanding what God means when he says remove earth from its foundation.

Some think "climate change" is going to destroy life on this planet. They may be right. haha.

Yes, he is suffering as a Christian.

9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus

Obviously there are different types of suffering. If you were put on the rack by the Jesuits, you might have been suffering as a Jew for instance who refused to renounce his faith.

If you went to prison, you might suffer as a criminal.

If you were used in animal experiments, you would be suffering as an animal. And so on.

 

[Runningman]

Hello Runningman,

With all of the previous trumpets, each trumpet was sounded and immediately there was a resulting plague of wrath. It is not like that here at the 7th trumpet. After the 7th trumpet is sounded, there is first a pre-celebration regarding the resulting plague of wrath that follows, which is Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven to the earth in chapter 12. Heaven celebrates, but it is the third woe to the earth and its inhabitants. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, the authority of the nations of the earth was given to Satan (Luke 4:6). The 7th trumpet is part of the process of the authority of the earth reverting back to God and His Christ, which is why Satan and his angels are being cast out. Jesus does not return to the earth at this time, not until after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

In addition, Crossnote is correct in that, the 7th trumpet has nothing to do with the last trumpet of 1 Cor.15:52, as they are two different types of trumpets. The 7th trumpet is a plague of wrath, where the last trumpet is a blessed event where the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Another reason that these two cannot be the same trumpet, is because if the church was gathered here at the 7th trumpet, it would mean that the living church would go through all of the seals and six of the trumpet judgments, which are the wrath of God and which we are not appointed to suffer. The church has to be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

The 7th trumpet of Revelation 11 describes exactly what happens at the return of Christ. Let's look at what actually happens in the 7th trumpet:

Christ takes over the Earth:
1. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Resurrection of the dead and judgment:
2. the time of the dead, that they should be judged

Saints rewarded:
3. give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

The 7th trump describes what happens when Christ returns: Christ reigns forever, resurrection, judgment.

So what does this sound like? The last trumpet mentioned when Jesus returns:

1 Corinthians 15:52
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

So Jesus returns at the last trumpet and resurrects the dead. What happens immediately after the resurrection? Jesus taught this already:

Resurrection and judgment:
Matthew 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

With all of this information under consideration, the 7th trumpet of Revelation describes the trumpet that accompanies the return of Christ, resurrection, and rapture. This is not a coincidence.

 

[crossnote]

From The Bible Knowledge Commentary...

The dead in Christ will first be raised, and then the living will be instantaneously transformed. The trumpet, as in the Old Testament, signaled the appearance of God (cf. Ex. 19:16). It is the last blast for the church because this appearance shall never end (cf. 1 Cor. 13:12). (There is no basis for posttribulationists equating this trumpet with the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15-19. The trumpets in Rev. pertain to judgments during the Tribulation, whereas the trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52 is related to the church.)
15:53-54. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

@DWR you disagreed with the above, could you explain why?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why do you continue to call the great tribulation the wrath of God?
God's wrath is not announced until the seventh trump.
Jesus said great tribulation will come. You deny what Jesus said and say the seals and trumpets are God's wrath.

The wrath of God would be all of the things of revelation. Not just the 7th. The great tribulation or 3.5 year period after the AOD is the time of Jacobs trouble. Or God pouring his wrath on mankind. Remember, God uses other nations or other people to perform his discipline or carry out his wrath.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can one of you pre-tribers explain to me what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians15:52 when he said this great event will take place at the LAST TRUMP?

First. You have two different trumps

The trump in revelation is a trumpet of Judgment on Mankind

The trump in 1 cor. is the trump announcing Christs return to take up his children. where they meet him in the sky and shall be with him forever more. It is NOT a trump of judgment.

It would be a mistake to assume they are the same trump

 

[Runningman]

First. You have two different trumps

The trump in revelation is a trumpet of Judgment on Mankind

The trump in 1 cor. is the trump announcing Christs return to take up his children. where they meet him in the sky and shall be with him forever more. It is NOT a trump of judgment.

It would be a mistake to assume they are the same trump

Per Revelation 11, these things happen at the 7th trumpet:

Christ takes over the Earth:
1. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Resurrection of the dead and judgment:
2. the time of the dead, that they should be judged

Saints rewarded:
3. give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

This is a description of what happens at the return of Christ. We can know this because we can cross reference scriptures about the return of Christ at the last trumpet, resurrection, rapture, and judgment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Per Revelation 11, these things happen at the 7th trumpet:

Christ takes over the Earth:
1. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Resurrection of the dead and judgment:
2. the time of the dead, that they should be judged

Saints rewarded:
3. give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

This is a description of what happens at the return of Christ. We can know this because we can cross reference scriptures about the return of Christ at the last trumpet, resurrection, rapture, and judgment.

Yep

Nothing about a rapture or Catching up of Gods children in the clouds.

That is his return to earth (boots on the ground)

The rapture or "catching up" is us meeting Jesus in the air..

 

[Runningman]

Yep

Nothing about a rapture or Catching up of Gods children in the clouds.

That is his return to earth (boots on the ground)

The rapture or "catching up" is us meeting Jesus in the air..

Ok let's pretend for a moment that there is no last trumpet rapture. If that's the case, then the church is present while this happens: "and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Rev. 11:18) Which would mean the church is present for God's wrath. I doubt you believe in a post-wrath rapture so how do you maintain consistency here?

Just give me a run down of why the 7th trumpet includes the judgment of the wicked, the rewarding of the saints, why the kingdoms of the Earth transition to Christ's authority without any rapture.

Also, please explain how this occurs pre-great tribulation.

 

[soberxp]

Do you willing to die for sinners, like Jesus Christ?
Don't think about God's punishment judgement as revenge or self revenge.
then we can talk about revelation.

 

[DWR]

The wrath of God would be all of the things of revelation. Not just the 7th. .

There is no Scripture basis for this statement.
Jesus said this would be a time of great tribulation, not a time of God's wrath.
God's wrath is not announced at the seventh trump.

 

[DWR]

First. You have two different trumps

The trump in revelation is a trumpet of Judgment on Mankind

The trump in 1 cor. is the trump announcing Christs return to take up his children. where they meet him in the sky and shall be with him forever more. It is NOT a trump of judgment.

It would be a mistake to assume they are the same trump

Again there is no Scripture basis for this statement.
Paul said at the last trump. If this last is only for the church, there must be a trump that preceded this trump.
Where and when did this trump sound?

 

[DWR]

From The Bible Knowledge Commentary...

The dead in Christ will first be raised, and then the living will be instantaneously transformed. The trumpet, as in the Old Testament, signaled the appearance of God (cf. Ex. 19:16). It is the last blast for the church because this appearance shall never end (cf. 1 Cor. 13:12). (There is no basis for posttribulationists equating this trumpet with the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15-19. The trumpets in Rev. pertain to judgments during the Tribulation, whereas the trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52 is related to the church.)
15:53-54. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

You posted the opinion of a commentary that wishes to prove what they believe.
Paul said "last trump" indication there was at least another trump sounded before.
When and why was this previous trump sounded?
Paul was speaking to the church at Corinth about the resurrection and explained in detail when it would happen.

 

[crossnote]

You posted the opinion of a commentary that wishes to prove what they believe.

That's true, just as you are posting your commentary wishing to prove what you believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no Scripture basis for this statement.
Jesus said this would be a time of great tribulation, not a time of God's wrath.
God's wrath is not announced at the seventh trump.

Why do you think the tribulation is so great? The time of gods wrath will be short. He puts and end to it when he returns and completed his wrath. The birds will eat the flesh for a year

 

[DWR]

That's true, just as you are posting your commentary wishing to prove what you believe.

I also asked questions that have not been answered by Scripture.
My belief is based on personal study, not some ones commentary.
There are few on this forum I agree with.
There is one loud mouth that has put me and others on ignore because we dare to question his post.
Do not come here often because it really is a waste of time.
Many will be in total shock very soon when things do not go as they have been taught.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again there is no Scripture basis for this statement.
Paul said at the last trump. If this last is only for the church, there must be a trump that preceded this trump.
Where and when did this trump sound?

Actually you have many trumps in the OT.

Again everything has to fit. Prophecy is
More than one passage

 

[DWR]

Why do you think the tribulation is so great? The time of gods wrath will be short. He puts and end to it when he returns and completed his wrath. The birds will eat the flesh for a year

Well, I tend to believe exactly what Jesus said, not what some false teacher says.
And you are correct. His wrath is poured out when he returns.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, I tend to believe exactly what Jesus said, not what some false teacher says.
And you are correct. His wrath is poured out when he returns.

I do to. I do nit want to make it
My belief I want scripture to agree to be one

his return is the end of his wrath. Look at all of the judgments. There is a reason they are called judgements because god is judging the earth with his wrath.