The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 12, 2020

I've already made the point (repeatedly) that:

Matthew 24:4-8 EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 EQUALS Luke 21:8-11 [ALL of these being "the beginning of birth PANGS"]

But, notice dear readers, Verse 12 says, BUT BEFORE ALL THESE ^ ("BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs) the next section of happenings must occur BEFORE ALL of them! (vv.12-24a the 70ad events must come "BEFORE ALL" of the beginning of birth pangs told of in those sections ^ )...

... but which PW has verse 12 to be saying (instead) "AFTER THESE THINGS" or "AFTER SOME of these things".

This is the first MIS-STEP.

Of course they do.

I've been pointing that out.

They ALSO INCLUDE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that involves the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period AND the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME [before which, "ONE THING" must take place "FIRST" before it can "BE PRESENT"], which INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR;1Th5:2-3]" is Matt24:4 / Mk 13:5 [the FIRST BP!] "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]" (which parallels the "BEGINNING" section of a number of other RELATED passages that ALL SHOW a BEGINNING, a MIDDLE, and an END of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; Rev1:1 (1:19c / 4:1 (7:3)]" time-period... etc

ALL of "the beginning of birth pangs" (as the passage states) come AFTER the events spelled out in the next section (vv.12-24a)

...so...

Part A (what comes FIRST, in this CONTEXT) = Luke 21:12-24a - the 70ad events (including "they shall be led away captive into all the nations);

Part B (these come AFTER that ^ -->) = Luke 21:8-11 / Matthew 24:4-8 / Mark 13:5-8 - [ALL of] "the beginning of birth PANGS" (including the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matthew 24:4 / Mark 13:5 'G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']"...
[only "ONE THING" must PRECEDE these commencing to unfold upon the earth, and that one thing pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (the ONE BODY / ONE [CORPORATE] BODY)])

PlainWord · Jul 12, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

I am aware that the Greek Orthodox date his death around 92 AD most likely because the Church after Irenaeus, adopted a later dating of Revelation because of 3rd hand hearsay testimony. There were a lot of martyrs of Christ prior to 70 AD, tens if not hundreds of thousands of them, throughout the Roman Empire and Judea. Since Revelation was written in 68-69 AD, I suspect Antipas was one of the earliest martyrs. If you look at the rest of the passage from Rev 2, you see this:

14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

The Nicolas (Νικόλαος) of Acts 6 was a native of Antioch and a proselyte (convert to Judaism) and then a follower of the way of Christ. When the Church was still confined to Jerusalem, he was chosen by the whole multitude of the disciples to be one of the first seven deacons, and he was ordained by the apostles, c. AD 33. The Nicolaitanes are the followers of that Nicolas who was one of the seven first ordained to the diaconate by the apostles. They lead lives of unrestrained indulgence. The character of these men is very plainly pointed out in the Apocalypse of John, [when they are represented] as teaching that it is a matter of indifference to practice adultery, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. — Irenaeus, Adversus haereses, i. 26, §3

Both the doctrine of Balaam and the Nicolaitans died out centuries ago. So either they make a come back or this applied to pre- 70 AD events. These doctrines are not issues in the church today. They were very big issues in the early church prior to 70 AD.

PlainWord · Jul 12, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

I've already made the point (repeatedly) that:

Matthew 24:4-8 EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 EQUALS Luke 21:8-11 [ALL of these being "the beginning of birth PANGS"]

But, notice dear readers, Verse 12 says, BUT BEFORE ALL THESE ^ ("BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs) the next section of happenings must occur BEFORE ALL of them! (vv.12-24a the 70ad events must come "BEFORE ALL" of the beginning of birth pangs told of in those sections ^ )...

... but which PW has verse 12 to be saying (instead) "AFTER THESE THINGS" or "AFTER SOME of these things".

This is the first MIS-STEP.

Of course they do.

I've been pointing that out.

They ALSO INCLUDE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that involves the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period AND the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME [before which, "ONE THING" must take place "FIRST" before it can "BE PRESENT"], which INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR;1Th5:2-3]" is Matt24:4 / Mk 13:5 [the FIRST BP!] "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]" (which parallels the "BEGINNING" section of a number of other RELATED passages that ALL SHOW a BEGINNING, a MIDDLE, and an END of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; Rev1:1 (1:19c / 4:1 (7:3)]" time-period... etc

ALL of "the beginning of birth pangs" (as the passage states) come AFTER the events spelled out in the next section (vv.12-24a)

...so...

Part A (what comes FIRST, in this CONTEXT) = Luke 21:12-24a - the 70ad events (including "they shall be led away captive into all the nations);

Part B (these come AFTER that ^ -->) = Luke 21:8-11 / Matthew 24:4-8 / Mark 13:5-8 - [ALL of] "the beginning of birth PANGS" (including the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matthew 24:4 / Mark 13:5 'G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']"...
[only "ONE THING" must PRECEDE these commencing to unfold upon the earth, and that one thing pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (the ONE BODY / ONE [CORPORATE] BODY)])

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one good buddy. Besides, we have history as a guide. My version works perfectly. Your version requires future fulfillment with a whole bunch of history repeating. If, I understand your view correctly.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 12, 2020

PlainWord said:

Again, I've mentioned that:

--Revelation 1:19b "the things WHICH ARE" (and which are spelled out in chpts 2-3 ^ ) are DISTINCT FROM...

--Revelation 1:19c / 4:1 / 1:1 (7:3) "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (everything from 4:1 to Rev19 end [and even thru 20:6]).

"the things WHICH ARE" (chpts 2-3) involve [also] things which occurred back in the first century... and which "things WHICH ARE" are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" like 1:1 ['SHEW'] (7:3) / 1:19c / 4:1 IS said to do! (which are the "future" aspects of the Book--that which takes place [only] in the [7 yrs] immediately preceding His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, yet future)

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 12, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

I find it necessary to clarify a point under "Part B"

--[Part A = the 70ad events - Luke 21:12-24a]

[then the "ONE THING" must happen before the "Part B - beginning of birth PANGS" can commence to unfold upon the earth (this pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / the ONE BODY / ONE [CORPORATE] BODY)]

--Part B = Luke 21:8-11 / Matthew 24:4-8 / Mark 13:5-8 - [ALL of] "the beginning of birth PANGS" (including the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matthew 24:4 / Mark 13:5 'G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']" (and there are parallels to these BoBPs, found in Scripture, and all of which "fit" WITHIN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that LEADS UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 [DISTINCT FROM "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to take place "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," by contrast])

PlainWord · Jul 13, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Where are you getting 7 years from, a misapplication of Dan 9:27? There is no gap in weeks in Dan 9. His people were given 70 weeks of years which equals 490 years. 40 years after that they were desolated and ceased being a nation. Thus, they ended and the 70 weeks ended. You don't get to add 2000 years to that.

As for Rev the things WHICH ARE, were things already present as of the writing of 68-69 AD. The things which must come to pass in QUICKNESS makes perfect sense if they came in 70 AD. They make NO SENSE if they happen in 2024. How could a 2000 year delay be QUICK?

Face it, Christ came in His presence to oversea the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, just as He said He would. Just as His Father did for the Babylonian destruction. Precedence.

PlainWord · Jul 13, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Can I suggest dear brother that you go back, before you respond, and re-read Daniel's prayer in Dan 9:1-19. Read it carefully. Pick up on why Judah and Israel were in Babylon for 70 years. Focus on this:

"Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.
13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth."

Look then at the parallels of why Jerusalem was sacked in the 6th century BC, to 70 AD, their wicked behavior which led the Lord to send Babylon to destroy them, then Rome. Notice that Daniel calls it A GREAT DISASTER...SUCH HAS NEVER BEEN DONE as what happened to Jerusalem. Now note the Jerusalem of Christ's day. He called it a wicked and perverse generation, an adulterous generation (just like the harlot imagery of Rev). Both generations rejected God, both generations were destroyed the same way. As I pointed out before, God was there for the Babylon destruction and Jesus promised to be there for the Roman destruction. But the Roman destruction included a long siege of starvation and suffering unlike ever seen in the world before or after.

In the rest of Dan 9, God tells Daniel that He will allow them to return but they have Seventy times Seven years to accomplish certain things. The chapter ends with Jerusalem being totally destroyed AGAIN. It is consumed by fire and left desolate. It received the punishment of a harlot - AGAIN.

How often are we to forgive our brother? Seventy times Seven (Mat 18:22). God gave them seventy times seven years to clean up their act. Having failed God again, He had enough, He wiped them out, took away His covenant and gave it to His new Bride, the Church.

PlainWord · Jul 13, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Do you even understand what the BIRTH PANGS are in the context of the Olivet? BIRTH PANGS HAPPEN BEFORE THE DELIVERY, NOT AFTER IT. I'm told by many mothers that delivering a baby is the most painful experience they ever had. Birth pangs are painful, but not as bad as the delivery. So when you think of DELIVERY, think of GREAT PAIN, i.e., GREAT TRIBULATION. Thus the Beginning of Birth Pangs, were the famines, the wars, the earthquakes, etc which happened before the GT of 70 AD. They keep getting worse and worse. Before and after the Birth Pangs, the disciples would be beaten and imprisoned. AFTER THE GT, MESSIAH RETURNS to see Jerusalem's final destruction.

The sequence of Mat 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 is this:

Disciples repeatedly taken to prison and before synagogues, (Acts 4)
Beginning of Birth Pangs: Famines, earthquakes and wars and rumors of wars (Famine: Acts 7, 11 Earthquakes: Acts 16)
Birth Pangs: Jewish Revolt in 66 AD, Rome invades and wipes out the surrounding cities and towns. Ppl flee to Jerusalem
Delivery: Great Tribulation (siege of Jerusalem) (Rev 9:5-6)
Final Destruction: - Babylon AKA Jerusalem falls, Christ present directing it (Rev 18:1-2)

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 13, 2020

PlainWord said:

What I believe you are doing (just as the SDA in this thread is doing, and to whom I showed this point) is, you are blurring together TWO DISCTINCT issues:

--the prophecy in the early part of Daniel 9--the "Seventy YEARS" prophecy (which "70 YRS" were coming to a close at the time of his prayer)

--the prophecy in the latter part of Daniel 9 [vv.24-27]--the "Seventy WEEKS" prophecy--490 yrs total ["determined upon thy people AND UPON thy holy city"] (which "FROM ___ UNTO the Messiah the Prince" is 69 Weeks total [or, 483 yrs of 360-day years], concluding on Palm Sunday when Jesus DID the Zech9:9 thing (which was said "unto Jerusalem"), and SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (also about "the city" and how the enemy would "compass thee round" [see also Lk21:23,20--70ad events]) and after which was the "be CUT OFF and have nothing" thing (His arrest/trials/death on the Cross [but see also Acts 3:21's "UNTIL"])--the time-period for THIS prophecy wouldn't even have its STARTING-POINT for another good while yet

Let me ask you a couple questions then...

--according to your viewpoint, are you adding the "70 yrs" that were coming to a close (in Dan9 first part of chpt) INTO the amount supplied in the latter part of the chpt, which "FROM - UNTO" wouldn't even START [have its STARTING-POINT] for another number of years (meaning, are you counting the 70 yrs they'd already just spent in Babylon [repeated] AGAIN into the amount of time stated in the latter "time-prophecy" ["70 Weeks" aka 490 YEARS]? Or would you subtract the "70 yrs" they'd already just spent and which were coming to a close at the time of Daniel's prayer?)

--according to your viewpoint, what then is the "Ezekiel 4" prophecy? (390 days and 40 days [representing YEARS, so 430 YEARS total])? It is THIS prophecy (of which "70 years" had just been spent and was nearing a close at the time of Daniel's prayer--so 360 years remaining--which is what gets multiplied by "[if not] I will punish you SEVEN TIMES" Leviticus 26... and I had made a post awhile back showing what year, when added to 537bc (re: Israel [606/605bc minus 70 yrs=537bc]) this comes out to (after adding that specific amount)... and there's a second one that factors from "the city/Jerusalem" in 518bc (re: "Temple rebuilding" that year; and by adding same amount) and what that comes to... [will try to go find that post later today and insert it into this thread]

IOW, the two sections of this chpt (Dan9) are speaking of DISTINCT prophecies, which you are blurring together into one and the same. This is another MIS-STEP. They are NOT the same prophecy.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 13, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

... to clarify the ENLARGED portion, I mean it to say:

"...and SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (also about "the city" and how the enemy would "compass thee round" [see also Lk21:23,20--70ad events]) and after which [meaning, AFTER HE SAID that (about Jerusalem) on Palm Sunday, the day the 69 Weeks total was concluded] was the "be CUT OFF and have nothing" thing..."

[then see another post I'd made about the "CUT OFF" wording... ]

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 13, 2020

PlainWord said:

"the things WHICH ARE" are not said (of them) they "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]".

It is the part (in v.1 and in the parallel wording) where verse 1 is saying,
--"[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [i.e. to John and to those mentioned in 7:3]
--things which must come to pass [<--compare with the wording in 4:1 and 1:19c] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; not adverbs]"

... meaning, when it is time for the things I'm about "TO SHEW" you [to John] to come to pass / be fulfilled / play out in reality / in real-time, THAT SECTION alone [of the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--4:1 thru chpt 19, and thru 20:6 also; i.e. the part ending with His Second Coming to the earth] is what must come to pass in a relatively short amount of time (UNLIKE "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]");

...each of the "prophetic passages" that parallel this section [the "future" section of things being "SHOW[n]" to John, 1:19c / 4:1+ / 1:1 (7:3)] ALL show a "BEGINNING," a "MIDDLE" and an "END" in the same way (I made a post about that) with the same themes/pictures showing in the same slots. (I won't post that here, but I've shown how this equals a span of 7-yrs... i.e. the final "WEEK [/7-yrs]" and that "the beginning of birth PANGS" [including the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" at the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time-period] are the EQUIVALENT of the SEALS of Rev6 [but again, the 70ad events come "BEFORE ALL these [/BEFORE ALL these beginning of birth pangs]" thus B/F ALL the SEALS (and not "immediately before"--as this is where the "UNTILs" fit in--that is how "prophecies" work!

They have to align, and they DO in my viewpoint!)])

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 13, 2020

[repeating a post... again]

I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):

Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel] -

14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim

and like a young lion to the house of Judah.

I, even I, will tear them to pieces

and then go away.

I will carry them off

where no one can rescue them.

15 Then I will return to My place

until they admit their guilt and seek My face;

in their affliction

they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”

6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.

For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,

but He will heal us [Israel];

He has wounded us [Israel],

but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.

2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]

on/in the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]

that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.

3 So let us [Israel] know—

let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.

As surely as the sun rises,

He will appear;

He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,

like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].

____________

[then... quoting Gaebelein's Commentary on Hosea 5]

"And like the lion after his attack withdraws to his den, so the Lord would withdraw from them, leave them and return to His place, waiting till their repentance comes and they seek Him early in their affliction.

"The last verse of this chapter has a wider meaning than the past judgment which came upon the house of Israel. The Lord of glory came to earth and visited His people. He came with the message and offer of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came unto His own, but His own received Him not. After they had rejected Him, delivered Him into the hands of the Gentiles to be crucified, He returned to His place. There He is now at the right hand of God, waiting for that day, when the remnant of Israel will repent and seek His face Acts 3:19-26. [I mentioned Acts 3:21's reference to FUTURE events (i.e. the "UNTIL") in my Post #71 of this thread [EDIT: a different thread]]. That will be in their coming great affliction, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.

"Hosea 6:1-3. The division of the chapter at this point is unfortunate. The three verses of chapter 6 must not be detached from the previous chapter. Here we have the future repentance of the remnant of Israel, that is during the great tribulation. Believingly they will acknowledge His righteous judgment and express their faith and hope in His mercy and the promised blessings and restoration. They express what their great prophet Moses so beautifully stated in His prophetic song, that great vision given to him, ere he went to the mountain to die. “See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” Deuteronomy 32:39. “After two days will He revive us; on [/in] the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight (literally, before His face).” They have been dead spiritually and nationally, but when the two days of their blindness and dispersion are over, there is coming for them the third day of life and [what is *LIKENED UNTO a] resurrection."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hosea 5 (taken from Bible Hub)

[end quoting Gaebelein; bold and underline mine; bracketed insertions mine]

____________

[note the passages I've listed before that *LIKEN this UNTO a RESURRECTION ^ (re: Israel's "FUTURE"): Romans 11:15(25-29); Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Daniel 12:1-4,10; John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); Hosea 5:15-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day"... which is "THE LAST" of these three (counting from His resurrection/ascension [32ad], per Hos5:15), or "THE LAST" of seven (if you count from creation/Genesis 1, i.e. the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9 (see Ex31:13,17 "it [the sabbath/7th day] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"), aka the Millennial Day of REST, that is, the 7th Millennium, or "THE LAST")]

I believe it is a big mistake to view the phrase "The Last Day" to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"

[end quoting post]

PlainWord · Jul 14, 2020

No, not counting the 70 years of captivity. The 490 year clock started ticking when Artaxerxes issued the decree to rebuild Jerusalem which many believe, me too, that it was in 457 BC.

We can debate which calendar was used for years, Jewish or Babylonian, but the difference is nominal so no matter what, these 70 weeks of years were to end around 30-40 AD. Personally, I believe the Babylonian calendar was in use which used 12 lunar months for a year then adjusts when needed adding an additional month by decree thus making it a nearly true solar calendar. The Jewish calendar back then made a similar adjustment adding an additional month every two or three years and they've been doing this since the Babylonian days until the Tannaitic period which would have covered all the time in question. Thus we are talking about true solar years for the 490 years. Again, if I'm wrong about this, subtract 7 years. But the math works fine if I'm correct.

Thus when the decree went forth (457) Jerusalem had 49 years to be rebuilt, which it was in 408 BC. Then there were to be 62 weeks or 434 years until the Messiah is revealed. Since there is no ZERO year this would mean Christ was to be baptized in 27 AD. This is why in Luke 19, Jesus says, "because they didn't know the time of their visitation." Well, they should have as the religious order was very familiar with Daniel's prophesy. Jesus was to have a 7 year ministry but in the middle of the 70th week, He was cut off and on the Cross He confirmed His new covenant with many (His believers). This puts the Cross at 30 AD.

We then have a 40 year transition period between the Mosaic Age and the Messianic Age which ended in 70 AD at the destruction of the Temple and City just as there was a 40 year transition from Egypt to the Promised Land where the Law was implemented at the beginning of their journey to start the Mosaic Age. This 40 year generation is the one that was not to pass until all things were fulfilled, including the return of Christ's presence.

Other preterists have the Cross at 33 AD with their set of rationale. Basically, both years are correct which I won't bother to explain now. Regardless, nothing lets us add 2,000 years and nothing is left in Dan 9 which wasn't fulfilled by the end of the 1st century including the consummation and desolation which we know happened in 70 AD. Daniel didn't skip over that and they were not part of the 70 weeks, he merely indicates how their end would be and he links it to the Messiah being cut-off because they are related events. Their punishment for rejecting and killing their Messiah were the events of 70 AD. God isn't angry at some snot noised Italian flipping pizza dough in Rome today.

PlainWord · Jul 14, 2020

Honestly TDW,

I'm tired of debating you on this subject. Just take the clear reading of the Word without parsing this and that to make it fit your model. Let the Word inform you, don't twist and squeeze the Word so that it means what you hope it means. Hence my moniker, Plain Word. It's plain and simple and perfectly written as one would normally understand it. There are no breaks or gaps in 490 years. They run concurrently, then they end. Messiah was cut-off in the middle of Week 70 and that very same generation paid the price for that crime. God was long suffering not wishing any to perish so He gave them every last bit of that generation, the full 40 years to repent. They were the wicked, perverse, adulterous and Messiah-killing generation that Christ warned. No generation of our future will match their evil. What did Messiah call them? Brood of vipers, hypocrites then He asked how would they escape the condemnation of hell, or something along those lines. All that was aimed at them, not us.

I notice you didn't bother to reply to my post concerning how you can have the beginning of the birth pangs coming AFTER the delivery. You need to better understand the concept Jesus was employing. He was speaking about pregnancy and relating it to the pain to come, getting worse and worse until finally labor and delivery. The only tribulation (pain and suffering) He mentions happened in 70 AD, when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. This was the worst of the pain thus it was the delivery. The pain stopped when there was no more city and those who would die, died. Rome left and the war and pain was over and the trampling stopped.

You need to reconcile that dear brother but to do so means you need to correct your prophetic model.

Prycejosh1987 · Jul 20, 2020

I think that is taking out importance of the whole bible, and taking it completely out of context. I do not agree with these people at all. All of the things they disagree on are pillars of the christian faith.

crossnote · May 28, 2021

The Dead Sea is Still Dead...These verses show unnfulfilled prophecy ...

Ezekiel 47:8-10 (KJV) Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

Ezekiel 47:8-10 (NASB) Then he said to me, "These waters go out toward the eastern region and go down into the Arabah; then they go toward the sea, being made to flow into the sea, and the waters of the sea become fresh. "It will come about that every living creature which swarms in every place where the river goes, will live. And there will be very many fish, for these waters go there and the others become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes. "And it will come about that fishermen will stand beside it; from Engedi to Eneglaim there will be a place for the spreading of nets. Their fish will be according to their kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea, very many.

cv5 · May 28, 2021

PlainWord said:

Honestly TDW,

I'm tired of debating you on this subject. Just take the clear reading of the Word without parsing this and that to make it fit your model. Let the Word inform you, don't twist and squeeze the Word so that it means what you hope it means. Hence my moniker, Plain Word. It's plain and simple and perfectly written as one would normally understand it. There are no breaks or gaps in 490 years. They run concurrently, then they end. Messiah was cut-off in the middle of Week 70 and that very same generation paid the price for that crime. God was long suffering not wishing any to perish so He gave them every last bit of that generation, the full 40 years to repent. They were the wicked, perverse, adulterous and Messiah-killing generation that Christ warned. No generation of our future will match their evil. What did Messiah call them? Brood of vipers, hypocrites then He asked how would they escape the condemnation of hell, or something along those lines. All that was aimed at them, not us.

I notice you didn't bother to reply to my post concerning how you can have the beginning of the birth pangs coming AFTER the delivery. You need to better understand the concept Jesus was employing. He was speaking about pregnancy and relating it to the pain to come, getting worse and worse until finally labor and delivery. The only tribulation (pain and suffering) He mentions happened in 70 AD, when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. This was the worst of the pain thus it was the delivery. The pain stopped when there was no more city and those who would die, died. Rome left and the war and pain was over and the trampling stopped.

You need to reconcile that dear brother but to do so means you need to correct your prophetic model.

I think you need to check your math. Seriously check your math....what you are postulating is complete rubbish. And then after you do that, scrap everything you know about eschatology and start over. That's probably the best way to correct your errors.

cv5 · May 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

[repeating a post... again]

I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):

Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel] -

14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim

and like a young lion to the house of Judah.

I, even I, will tear them to pieces

and then go away.

I will carry them off

where no one can rescue them.

15 Then I will return to My place

until they admit their guilt and seek My face;

in their affliction

they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”

6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.

For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,

but He will heal us [Israel];

He has wounded us [Israel],

but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.

2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]

on/in the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]

that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.

3 So let us [Israel] know—

let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.

As surely as the sun rises,

He will appear;

He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,

like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].

____________

[then... quoting Gaebelein's Commentary on Hosea 5]

"And like the lion after his attack withdraws to his den, so the Lord would withdraw from them, leave them and return to His place, waiting till their repentance comes and they seek Him early in their affliction.

"The last verse of this chapter has a wider meaning than the past judgment which came upon the house of Israel. The Lord of glory came to earth and visited His people. He came with the message and offer of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came unto His own, but His own received Him not. After they had rejected Him, delivered Him into the hands of the Gentiles to be crucified, He returned to His place. There He is now at the right hand of God, waiting for that day, when the remnant of Israel will repent and seek His face Acts 3:19-26. [I mentioned Acts 3:21's reference to FUTURE events (i.e. the "UNTIL") in my Post #71 of this thread [EDIT: a different thread]]. That will be in their coming great affliction, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.

"Hosea 6:1-3. The division of the chapter at this point is unfortunate. The three verses of chapter 6 must not be detached from the previous chapter. Here we have the future repentance of the remnant of Israel, that is during the great tribulation. Believingly they will acknowledge His righteous judgment and express their faith and hope in His mercy and the promised blessings and restoration. They express what their great prophet Moses so beautifully stated in His prophetic song, that great vision given to him, ere he went to the mountain to die. “See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” Deuteronomy 32:39. “After two days will He revive us; on [/in] the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight (literally, before His face).” They have been dead spiritually and nationally, but when the two days of their blindness and dispersion are over, there is coming for them the third day of life and [what is *LIKENED UNTO a] resurrection."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hosea 5 (taken from Bible Hub)

[end quoting Gaebelein; bold and underline mine; bracketed insertions mine]

____________

[note the passages I've listed before that *LIKEN this UNTO a RESURRECTION ^ (re: Israel's "FUTURE"): Romans 11:15(25-29); Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Daniel 12:1-4,10; John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); Hosea 5:15-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day"... which is "THE LAST" of these three (counting from His resurrection/ascension [32ad], per Hos5:15), or "THE LAST" of seven (if you count from creation/Genesis 1, i.e. the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9 (see Ex31:13,17 "it [the sabbath/7th day] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"), aka the Millennial Day of REST, that is, the 7th Millennium, or "THE LAST")]

I believe it is a big mistake to view the phrase "The Last Day" to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"

[end quoting post]

He forgot about all those scriptures and prophecies?
No wonder he's not making any sense.

cv5 · May 29, 2021

PlainWord said:

Can I suggest dear brother that you go back, before you respond, and re-read Daniel's prayer in Dan 9:1-19. Read it carefully. Pick up on why Judah and Israel were in Babylon for 70 years. Focus on this:

"Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.
13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth."

Look then at the parallels of why Jerusalem was sacked in the 6th century BC, to 70 AD, their wicked behavior which led the Lord to send Babylon to destroy them, then Rome. Notice that Daniel calls it A GREAT DISASTER...SUCH HAS NEVER BEEN DONE as what happened to Jerusalem. Now note the Jerusalem of Christ's day. He called it a wicked and perverse generation, an adulterous generation (just like the harlot imagery of Rev). Both generations rejected God, both generations were destroyed the same way. As I pointed out before, God was there for the Babylon destruction and Jesus promised to be there for the Roman destruction. But the Roman destruction included a long siege of starvation and suffering unlike ever seen in the world before or after.

In the rest of Dan 9, God tells Daniel that He will allow them to return but they have Seventy times Seven years to accomplish certain things. The chapter ends with Jerusalem being totally destroyed AGAIN. It is consumed by fire and left desolate. It received the punishment of a harlot - AGAIN.

How often are we to forgive our brother? Seventy times Seven (Mat 18:22). God gave them seventy times seven years to clean up their act. Having failed God again, He had enough, He wiped them out, took away His covenant and gave it to His new Bride, the Church.

Evidently you forgot about Daniel 9:27. It's important. Get back to us on that....

cv5 · May 29, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

What I believe you are doing (just as the SDA in this thread is doing, and to whom I showed this point) is, you are blurring together TWO DISCTINCT issues:

--the prophecy in the early part of Daniel 9--the "Seventy YEARS" prophecy (which "70 YRS" were coming to a close at the time of his prayer)

--the prophecy in the latter part of Daniel 9 [vv.24-27]--the "Seventy WEEKS" prophecy--490 yrs total ["determined upon thy people AND UPON thy holy city"] (which "FROM ___ UNTO the Messiah the Prince" is 69 Weeks total [or, 483 yrs of 360-day years], concluding on Palm Sunday when Jesus DID the Zech9:9 thing (which was said "unto Jerusalem"), and SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (also about "the city" and how the enemy would "compass thee round" [see also Lk21:23,20--70ad events]) and after which was the "be CUT OFF and have nothing" thing (His arrest/trials/death on the Cross [but see also Acts 3:21's "UNTIL"])--the time-period for THIS prophecy wouldn't even have its STARTING-POINT for another good while yet

Let me ask you a couple questions then...

--according to your viewpoint, are you adding the "70 yrs" that were coming to a close (in Dan9 first part of chpt) INTO the amount supplied in the latter part of the chpt, which "FROM - UNTO" wouldn't even START [have its STARTING-POINT] for another number of years (meaning, are you counting the 70 yrs they'd already just spent in Babylon [repeated] AGAIN into the amount of time stated in the latter "time-prophecy" ["70 Weeks" aka 490 YEARS]? Or would you subtract the "70 yrs" they'd already just spent and which were coming to a close at the time of Daniel's prayer?)

--according to your viewpoint, what then is the "Ezekiel 4" prophecy? (390 days and 40 days [representing YEARS, so 430 YEARS total])? It is THIS prophecy (of which "70 years" had just been spent and was nearing a close at the time of Daniel's prayer--so 360 years remaining--which is what gets multiplied by "[if not] I will punish you SEVEN TIMES" Leviticus 26... and I had made a post awhile back showing what year, when added to 537bc (re: Israel [606/605bc minus 70 yrs=537bc]) this comes out to (after adding that specific amount)... and there's a second one that factors from "the city/Jerusalem" in 518bc (re: "Temple rebuilding" that year; and by adding same amount) and what that comes to... [will try to go find that post later today and insert it into this thread]

IOW, the two sections of this chpt (Dan9) are speaking of DISTINCT prophecies, which you are blurring together into one and the same. This is another MIS-STEP. They are NOT the same prophecy.

Indeed the 360 remaining years of Ezekiel 4 are critically important in prophecy.
360 X 7 = 2520 years. Which calculates out to be May 14, 1948....the end of the captivity of the nation. July 7, 1967 calculates to be the end of the desolations of Jerusalem.

The two starting dates are the first and third sieges of Nebuchadnezzar.

The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

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