The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[Journeyman]

What's wonderful about God's prophecies is that most of them concern the work of his Holy Spirit in the world. It's a fantastic thing that people who reject Jesus are blind to what's going on. It's also great that people who say they're christians are waiting for prophecy to be fulfilled, when it is being fulfilled. It's Jesus's way of showing us who the phonies are.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Mat 24 is given in total chronological order. Don't allow your interpretation of Revelation to alter the order of Mat 24.

Yes it is in chronological order.

But recall,

Luke 21:8-11 EQUALS Matthew 24:48- EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 ("the beginning of birth pangs"), BUT...

verse 12 (of Lk21) says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (BEFORE ALL THESE 'beginning of birth pangs" just referred to in vv.8-11!) the 70ad events (of vv.12-24a) have to take place

These birth pangs or beginning of sorrows precede the 70 AD events. They precede the 66-69 AD events too.

No. What you are saying here ^ is the EXACT OPPOSTITE of what the TEXT is telling us.


So the SEQUENCE goes like this:

--[AFTER the 69 Weeks (total) were completed on Palm Sunday] "Messiah [Jesus] shall be CUT OFF, and have nothing" (His "arrest/trials/death on the Cross"--"whom heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD SPAKE BY the mouths of all His holy prophets from the age"]


1) BEFORE the beginning of birth pangs... the 70ad events must unfold first - Lk21:12-24a including "and they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all the nations" (and v.21's "SEE-then-FLEE" occurring in this set, and which pertains to the "[SEE] Jerusalem COMPASSED WITH ARMIES"; parallel Jesus' words on Palm Sunday saying the Lk19:41-44 thing; and Jesus' parable in Matt22:7 "king WAS WROTH"/'BURNED UP THEIR CITY" thing)


2) [BEFORE "the DOTL" can commence to unfold upon the earth (with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME), "ONE THING" must happen "FIRST"]---> "3 that day will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure *FIRST*..." (won't get into that in this post! [but let the readers examine the word "A STANDING [Grk: stasis[/]]" in Heb9:8-9a and how that word is used elsewhere[/I]])


3) [AFTER the events surrounding 70ad (and, note, I do not say immediately after)] THEN "the beginning of birth PANGS" commence to unfold upon the earth (the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ('a certain one' bringing deception)]" being the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period [of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth] (which is parallel SEAL #1 at the START of the trib yrs; and parallel the "whose COMING [ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" ['IN THE NIGHT' / 'DARK' / 'DARKNESS' time period, which will take place 'IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 (7:3)]' i.e. the 7-yrs (in contrast with 'the things WHICH ARE' which do NOT take place 'IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]']')


4) [AFTER "the beginning of birth PANGS" in vv.4-8 of Matt24 (and parallels of Mk13:5 and Lk21:8-11!!!!)] MANY MORE "birth PANGS" take place (everything following on from vv.4-8 chronologically in Matthew 24!)


5) [AFTER "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11] THEN Matt24:15's "AOD [singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet [Dan12:11 'SET UP']" takes place, and the "SEE-then-FLEE" of THIS takes place (DISTINCT from the one under Pt #1, above! which took place in the events surrounding 70ad, and which was thereafter accompanied by their "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" Lk21:24a [which came after that "SEE-then-FLEE" which had to do with "SEE Jerusalem COMPASSED WITH ARMIES... but THIS one DOES NOT... THIS one has to do with the "AOD [SINGULAR] spoken of by Daniel the prophet [Dan12:11 SINGULAR] standing in the holy place")


6) [AFTER the "SEE-then-FLEE" of THIS Matt24:15] 1260 days are yet to unfold upon the earth UNTIL Jesus' [OWN] Personal "RETURN" to the earth Rev19; THIS time-period SPECIFICALLY named as "THE GREAT tribulation" and involves also the "a great multitude... OF ALL THE NATIONS" (coming after the "they which be in Judaea FLEE to the mountains" which pertains to Israel, as I see it [Rev12's "the woman"])


7) [AFTER the "SEE-then-FLEE" of Matt24:15 and the GT of Matt24:21 (involving 1260 days till His "RETURN" to the earth] THEN the Matthew 24:29-31 takes place, PARALLEL Isaiah 27:12-13 (note the "WHO" and the "WHERE" they are gathered, and the "HOW" ['gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel... to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" (parallel what Isa24:21-22[23] says)]


that's all I got time for atm! = )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT to CORRECT: where this said

Luke 21:8-11 EQUALS Matthew 24:48- EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 ("the beginning of birth pangs"), BUT...

...that Matthew one should read: Matthew 24:4-8 (not 48 !)


[ not enough TIME to EDIT !! ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

IOW, the events LISTED in 1-7 are SEQUENTIAL (#1 first, #2 second, #3 third, etc) in my Post #2442.





It is v.12 (of Lk21) that informs us that BEFORE all of the beginning of birth pangs [which are what "Lk21:8-11 / Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8" are/had just mentioned--so BEFORE ALL THESE beginning of birth pangs...], the 70ad events [vv.12-24a] must take place FIRST ('BEFORE" them!) Not after them, as you are saying.

 

[Truth7t7]

Post yours since you will skip anything not in your preconception

Please one scripture reading at a time, start posting your claims of a pre-trib rapture

Waiting

 

[Truth7t7]

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

When does a believer rest from all the tribulations he faces in this life?

When is the Lord revealed from heaven for a believer?

Do you believe Jesus Christ "Literally" ascended to heaven?

Acts 1:10KJV
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Paul acknowledges that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the DOTL [time-period] ARRIVES like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of a woman in labor (and then MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from that point, just as Jesus had said! when He talked about "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]")



So in his [Paul's] second letter to them, he is setting the record straight as to SEQUENCE issues (because of what v.2[&v.15]'s Subject is covering), so is supplying the "WHAT" comes "WHEN" in RELATION TO "what OTHER thing"...

--v.2 don't let anyone convince you "that the DOTL *IS PRESENT* [PERFECT indicative]" (it would be REASONABLE for them to wrongly THINK this, DUE TO 2Th1:4's ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE things they were EXPERIENCING/ENDURING);

--v.3 "that day will NOT be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*

(the one previously mentioned in the text, in v.1, and previously mentioned in his first letter--and not merely "one mention" of it [but something like 10x in these 2 epistles!]):

"he apo stasia" / "he apo stasis" *FIRST*

("THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*" - see Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon for this word [in the bold]--See also what I put [what I suggested the reader do] under #2 in my Post #2442... though it is highly doubtful anyone here will do so, I realize )

 

[PlainWord]

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

When does a believer rest from all the tribulations he faces in this life?

When is the Lord revealed from heaven for a believer?

Or perhaps they got their rest in 66 AD when the Lord returned and the first siege began trapping those wicked Jews inside? Don't leave out the rest of the passage:

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Where is my flaming fire taking vengeance? I want my fire, LOL. Oh never mind I see it in 67-70 AD as the Romans torched everything.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

...but how can this "fit" that? :

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to [/CERTAIN to] come up out of the abyss and go into destruction; and those [...] seeing the beast which was, and is not, and yet will be [FUTURE tense]."


...if it "IS NOT" at the time when written...[?].

 

[PlainWord]

Paul acknowledges that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the DOTL [time-period] ARRIVES like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of a woman in labor (and then MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from that point, just as Jesus had said! when He talked about "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]")



So in his [Paul's] second letter to them, he is setting the record straight as to SEQUENCE issues (because of what v.2[&v.15]'s Subject is covering), so is supplying the "WHAT" comes "WHEN" in RELATION TO "what OTHER thing"...

--v.2 don't let anyone convince you "that the DOTL *IS PRESENT* [PERFECT indicative]" (it would be REASONABLE for them to wrongly THINK this, DUE TO 2Th1:4's ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE things they were EXPERIENCING/ENDURING);

--v.3 "that day will NOT be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*

(the one previously mentioned in the text, in v.1, and previously mentioned in his first letter--and not merely "one mention" of it [but something like 10x in these 2 epistles!]):

"he apo stasia" / "he apo stasis" *FIRST*

("THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*" - see Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon for this word [in the bold]--See also what I put [what I suggested the reader do] under #2 in my Post #2442... though it is highly doubtful anyone here will do so, I realize )

He was setting the record straight because in about 15 years, the Man of Sin would be on the scene. The birth pangs had already begun. Claudius Caesar reigned from 41 to 54. Paul's 2 letter would have been around the tail end of his reign thus the earthquakes and famine were already being experienced.

Many preterists believe that Titus was the Man of Sin and I've held that view off and on. But re-reading 2 Thes 2 just now, I was struck by the level of deceitfulness that lead to the slaughter of many Jews. Titus didn't really do a lot of deceiving, except for foreign Jews wishing to enter the city. I am giving thought to Eleazar, the son of Simon, as the Man of Sin as he and his man stormed the temple and took all the sacred things for themselves and they killed many people and they defiled the temple long before Titus got there.

But again, everything is sequential and everything was fulfilled in the first century.

 

[KJV1611]

Do you believe Jesus Christ "Literally" ascended to heaven?

Acts 1:10KJV
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Most certainly I do believe he ascended and the Bible says he ascended with the Old Testament saints if we believe the Bible for exactly what it says in Jude.

 

[PlainWord]

...but how can this "fit" that? :

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to [/CERTAIN to] come up out of the abyss and go into destruction; and those [...] seeing the beast which was, and is not, and yet will be [FUTURE tense]."


...if it "IS NOT" at the time when written...[?].

According to Isaiah 54:5, Israel was in a marriage covenant with God. However, Jerusalem committed adultery against her God, spiritual husband and king by killing the Messiah and His people and declaring Caesar, the beast, her king instead during Christ’s crucifixion: “We have no king but Caesar!” (John 19:15). This rejection of Christ, Jerusalem’s spiritual husband, in favor of Caesar is depicted as an adulterous affair between the beast, representing Rome and its Caesars, and Jerusalem in Revelation 17 and 18.

In Ezekiel 16 Jerusalem is depicted as an adulterous wife. This enrages the Lord and in Ezekiel 16:38 He says, “I will sentence you [Jerusalem] to the punishment of women who commit adultery[.]” According to the Law of Moses, the punishment for adultery is stoning (John 8:4-5, Ezekiel 16:38-40). And burning is the prescribed punishment for the daughter of a priest who is found to be a prostitute (Leviticus 21:9). In 70 AD, Roman solders catapulted heavy stones (the weight of a talent) over the wall then once inside burned Jerusalem, the harlot, to the ground thus giving her the punishment prescribed by law.

As for the Beast (Rome), the other half of the creature. Explaining the part about "which was and is not, yet will be" is much easier to explain.

The beast is a broad metaphor for Rome and the emperors who ruled its two first-century dynasties, the Caesar family dynasty and the Flavian family dynasty. Therefore, the beast who once was represents the Roman Empire under the Caesar Dynasty. The fact that the beast “now is not” implies that the beast dies with Nero, the last emperor of the Caesar Dynasty or family line. And Nero’s suicide triggered a civil war as Nero had not named his successor. Therefore, the beast is metaphorically considered dead in A.D. 69 during the three-way civil war after Nero’s death. The fact that the beast “yet will come” implies a kind of resurrection of Nero and his empire. The beast of Rome did not begin to show signs of life until the end of A.D. 69 at the rise of the Flavian Dynasty when Vespasian, the beast whose wound had been healed in Revelation 13:3, Titus and Domitian were all officially declared Caesar. Soon after the Flavian Dynasty rose to power the revolts in Jerusalem and the three-way civil war in Rome that began after Nero’s death had ended. The Flavian Dynasty, had saved the Roman Empire which was on the precipice of collapsing while at the zenith of its power. The rise of the Flavian Dynasty marks the resurrection of the beast of Rome. This notion is implicit in a coin minted during Vespasian’s reign which depicts Vespasian reaching his hand out to help the Goddess Roma back to her feet. If Roma is being helped back to her feet by Vespasian, does this imply a popular perception that Rome had temporarily fallen or at least stumbled during the year of the four Caesars? Under the leadership of the Flavian Dynasty the beast had risen from the Abyss. Its wound had been healed! The restoration of the peace and stability of the Roman Empire under the Flavians is, however, not the only way in which the Roman beast is historically and metaphorically resurrected from the dead.

 

[Truth7t7]

Most certainly I do believe he ascended and the Bible says he ascended with the Old Testament saints if we believe the Bible for exactly what it says in Jude.

You believe Jesus Christ "Literally" ascended from the Mt. Olivet, but you don't believe he will "Literally" return as seen below?

Acts 1:9-12KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Zechariah 14:4KJV
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[KJV1611]

Or perhaps they got their rest in 66 AD when the Lord returned and the first siege began trapping those wicked Jews inside? Don't leave out the rest of the passage:

8 in 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Where is my flaming fire taking vengeance? I want my fire, LOL. Oh never mind I see it in 67-70 AD as the Romans torched everything.

Ad 70 didn’t do anything to stop the persecution of Christians back then, much less now. Very few of the persecutors, in comparison to what the Catholic Church has done to believers throughout history were stopped in AD 70. But just prior to our death when we meet Jesus in the air, there is no more persecution.

And the “flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” these are the people that rejected Christ and at their death went to hell.

 

[Truth7t7]

Ad 70 didn’t do anything to stop the persecution of Christians back then, much less now. Very few of the persecutors, in comparison to what the Catholic Church has done to believers throughout history were stopped in AD 70. But just prior to our death when we meet Jesus in the air, there is no more persecution.

And the “flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” these are the people that rejected Christ and at their death went to hell.

You suggest the "Second Coming" takes place upon the Believers "Individual" personal death?

The scripture denotes the entire earth all "Tribes" mourn, and "They Shall See"

Plural: Tribes, They

It appears you see what you want to see, in keeping your false teaching of (Full Preterism) alive.

Your suggestion of the "Singular" aspect is removed in these verses alone.

Dispensationalism has more credibility than (Full Preterism) and that's a big understatement, with both being false teachings.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[KJV1611]

You believe Jesus Christ "Literally" ascended from the Mt. Olivet, but you don't believe he will "Literally" return as seen below?

Acts 1:9-12KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

I’m gonna comment on two passages in separate posts.

Did you notice that Acts 2:11 doesn’t say “shall come back” nor “shall return”? It says “shall so come”. To say he meant coming back to earth or returning to earth is ADDING to what the Bible says.

Just a few chapters later we see Stephen gazing up into heaven as Jesus came to Stephen just prior to Stephen dying. It is not adding to the word to say that Jesus came to Stephen because we know he came to him and we know that Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit.

Act 7:55 (KJV) But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

[KJV1611]

You suggest the "Second Coming" takes place upon the Believers "Individual" personal death?

The scripture denotes the entire earth all "Tribes" mourn, and "They Shall See"

Plural: Tribes, They

It appears you see what you want to see, in keeping your false teaching of (Full Preterism) alive.

Your suggestion of the "Singular" aspect is removed in these verses alone.

Dispensationalism has more credibility than (Full Preterism) and that's a big understatement, with both being false teachings.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

See my last post to you. Acts doesn’t say his “second coming” nor “return”. I don’t have time to get into detail right now I’m doing work on my property today.

 

[Truth7t7]

I’m gonna comment on two passages in separate posts.

Did you notice that Acts 2:11 doesn’t say “shall come back” nor “shall return”? It says “shall so come”. To say he meant coming back to earth or returning to earth is ADDING to what the Bible says.

Just a few chapters later we see Stephen gazing up into heaven as Jesus came to Stephen just prior to Stephen dying. It is not adding to the word to say that Jesus came to Stephen because we know he came to him and we know that Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit.

Act 7:55 (KJV) But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Returning to earth is adding to the scripture?

You run and hide from my post in complete silence on Zechariah 14:4, in Jesus Christ returning to earth, a standard in your responses, wiggle, bend, and twist

Acts 1:9-12KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Zechariah 14:4KJV
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[Truth7t7]

See my last post to you. Acts doesn’t say his “second coming” nor “return”. I don’t have time to get into detail right now I’m doing work on my property today.

Run and hide, no detail I'm busy?

Your (Full Preterist) teaching is worse than Swiss cheese, actually laughable in the light of scripture, Aesop's fables has more credibility, the truth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But again, everything is sequential and everything was fulfilled in the first century.

In Matt24 it is.

In Luke 21, it goes like:

--(a) vv.12-24a [70ad events] come "[But] BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs described in vv.8-11 [ / Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8]<--(b)


That is,

--(a) vv.12-24a [70ad events] come "[But] BEFORE ALL THESE"

--(b) [THEN] beginning of birth pangs described in vv.8-11 [ / Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8]<--(b) [<--come AFTER the 70ad events]