The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[Truth7t7]

According to Isaiah 54:5, Israel was in a marriage covenant with God. However, Jerusalem committed adultery against her God, spiritual husband and king by killing the Messiah and His people and declaring Caesar, the beast, her king instead during Christ’s crucifixion: “We have no king but Caesar!” (John 19:15). This rejection of Christ, Jerusalem’s spiritual husband, in favor of Caesar is depicted as an adulterous affair between the beast, representing Rome and its Caesars, and Jerusalem in Revelation 17 and 18.

In Ezekiel 16 Jerusalem is depicted as an adulterous wife. This enrages the Lord and in Ezekiel 16:38 He says, “I will sentence you [Jerusalem] to the punishment of women who commit adultery[.]” According to the Law of Moses, the punishment for adultery is stoning (John 8:4-5, Ezekiel 16:38-40). And burning is the prescribed punishment for the daughter of a priest who is found to be a prostitute (Leviticus 21:9). In 70 AD, Roman solders catapulted heavy stones (the weight of a talent) over the wall then once inside burned Jerusalem, the harlot, to the ground thus giving her the punishment prescribed by law.

As for the Beast (Rome), the other half of the creature. Explaining the part about "which was and is not, yet will be" is much easier to explain.

The beast is a broad metaphor for Rome and the emperors who ruled its two first-century dynasties, the Caesar family dynasty and the Flavian family dynasty. Therefore, the beast who once was represents the Roman Empire under the Caesar Dynasty. The fact that the beast “now is not” implies that the beast dies with Nero, the last emperor of the Caesar Dynasty or family line. And Nero’s suicide triggered a civil war as Nero had not named his successor. Therefore, the beast is metaphorically considered dead in A.D. 69 during the three-way civil war after Nero’s death. The fact that the beast “yet will come” implies a kind of resurrection of Nero and his empire. The beast of Rome did not begin to show signs of life until the end of A.D. 69 at the rise of the Flavian Dynasty when Vespasian, the beast whose wound had been healed in Revelation 13:3, Titus and Domitian were all officially declared Caesar. Soon after the Flavian Dynasty rose to power the revolts in Jerusalem and the three-way civil war in Rome that began after Nero’s death had ended. The Flavian Dynasty, had saved the Roman Empire which was on the precipice of collapsing while at the zenith of its power. The rise of the Flavian Dynasty marks the resurrection of the beast of Rome. This notion is implicit in a coin minted during Vespasian’s reign which depicts Vespasian reaching his hand out to help the Goddess Roma back to her feet. If Roma is being helped back to her feet by Vespasian, does this imply a popular perception that Rome had temporarily fallen or at least stumbled during the year of the four Caesars? Under the leadership of the Flavian Dynasty the beast had risen from the Abyss. Its wound had been healed! The restoration of the peace and stability of the Roman Empire under the Flavians is, however, not the only way in which the Roman beast is historically and metaphorically resurrected from the dead.

You responses are "Novels" keep it simple?

 

[KJV1611]

Run and hide, no detail I'm busy?

Your (Full Preterist) teaching is worse than Swiss cheese, actually laughable in the light of scripture, Aesop's fables has more credibility, the truth.

Dude I’m making my pond bigger so I can put in more fish in so my family and I want starve when the civil war starts.

 

[Truth7t7]

Dude I’m making my pond bigger so I can put in more fish in so my family and I want starve when the civil war starts.

Matthew 6:25-34KJV
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

 

[PlainWord]

Most certainly I do believe he ascended and the Bible says he ascended with the Old Testament saints if we believe the Bible for exactly what it says in Jude.

There is another explanation for how those thousands of saints got to heaven. I believe God came down first in 66 AD and resurrected the dead. If you read 1 Thes 4:13-17 carefully it is "God bringing those who sleep in Jesus." We also have many passages where Christ was to remain at the right hand until the Lord made His enemies His footstool. The sequence of Mat 24 doesn't have Christ returning in His presence until after the great tribulation slaughter of 70 AD. So, the saints would already be in heaven.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Did you notice that Acts 2:11 doesn’t say “shall come back” nor “shall return”? It says “shall so come”. To say he meant coming back to earth or returning to earth is ADDING to what the Bible says.

It says a little more than just "shall so come". It says this [quoting second half of verse]:


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[and recall, Acts 1:9-11 is telling of Jesus' SECOND "ascension"... the first one being some "40 days" prior to this scene (ON Firstfruit/His Resurrection Day, Jn20:17) and only TOLD to Mary Magdalene (who was INSTRUCTED to go tell the others), but that scene was not as such that anyone beheld Him "going / traveling / journeying" into heaven as this scene in Acts 1 DOES have it (and which is describing "the manner" ['IN LIKE MANNER'] in which He will "so come"--this referring to His second coming to the earth Rev19, i.e. "traveling / journeying" and "VISIBLY") ]

 

[PlainWord]

TDW,

Yes it is in chronological order.

But recall,

Luke 21:8-11 EQUALS Matthew 24:48- EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 ("the beginning of birth pangs"), BUT...

verse 12 (of Lk21) says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (BEFORE ALL THESE 'beginning of birth pangs" just referred to in vv.8-11!) the 70ad events (of vv.12-24a) have to take place

Before all these things, the persecution of the disciples start. That's what it says in Luk 21:12:

12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.

Acts 4 confirms this. Literally within days of Pentecost, Jesus' prophesy of Lk 21:12 was perfectly fulfilled. Very early on, the tormenting starts.

4 Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them, 2 being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.

5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, 6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

Perfect fulfillment. Now the birth pangs may start and they do, as early as 41 AD.

 

[PlainWord]

...but how can this "fit" that? :

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to [/CERTAIN to] come up out of the abyss and go into destruction; and those [...] seeing the beast which was, and is not, and yet will be [FUTURE tense]."


...if it "IS NOT" at the time when written...[?].

I firmly believe, and the internal evidence of Revelation itself, strongly suggests that it was written after the death of Nero in 68 AD but before the coming of Titus in early 70 AD. Thus, it was written before Vespasian claimed the throne during the time the kingdom of Rome was cast into darkness, during their civil war of 69 AD. Thus, the Lord coming quickly was 100% accurate.

 

[PlainWord]

In Matt24 it is.

In Luke 21, it goes like:

--(a) vv.12-24a [70ad events] come "[But] BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs described in vv.8-11 [ / Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8]<--(b)


That is,

--(a) vv.12-24a [70ad events] come "[But] BEFORE ALL THESE"

--(b) [THEN] beginning of birth pangs described in vv.8-11 [ / Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8]<--(b) [<--come AFTER the 70ad events]

The birth pangs lead up to 70 AD. The sequence is, the persecution starts and continues throughout, then the birth pangs, then the birth which was the destruction of Jerusalem. Birth pangs, precedes delivery. The real pain is the delivery. Thus the real pain here is the great tribulation from Feb 70 AD to Aug 70 AD. Don't just look at the Luke account, use all 3 accounts. They all cover the same ground.

Look at Mark 13:

5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 6 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many. 7 But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for such things must happen, but the end is not yet. 8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines and troubles. These are the beginnings of sorrows.

9 “But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

The beginning of sorrows (or birth pangs) include; wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines and troubles." As I pointed out, all of this was happening during Claudius and Nero.

The tormenting of the disciples began immediately after Pentecost. First they were held and questioned (Acts 4), later they were imprisoned and beaten (Acts 16:26). In this passage we have both imprisonment and an earthquake which frees them. Then the remaining disciples were killed. John was the only to survive. The last disciple to be killed BEFORE the siege of Jerusalem was James, the Just, half brother to Jesus. He was thrown from the roof of the temple and immediately Vespasian surrounded the city. This happened in the fall/winter of 68-69 AD. Nero is dead, Rome is in civil war during the year of the 4 emperors.

 

[PlainWord]

Returning to earth is adding to the scripture?

You run and hide from my post in complete silence on Zechariah 14:4, in Jesus Christ returning to earth, a standard in your responses, wiggle, bend, and twist

Acts 1:9-12KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Zechariah 14:4KJV
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

LOL - WOW!! So let's see who is making Swiss cheese, shall we? shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He comes AS THEY SAW HIM GO INTO HEAVEN, not as He left earth. He stays in the Clouds of Heaven. This is where He is seen.

Mat 26: 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Mat 16: 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Mat 24: 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Acts 1, says NOTHING about Christ returning to earth. He never sets foot on earth again!! He is seen in the sky in His glory cloud, AKA "Clouds of Heaven."

Zech 14 dealt with God standing on the Mount of Olives, splitting it into 2 during the Maccabees Revolt of 165 BC. You can find that event in the 2nd Book of Maccabees.

The fact that God fought for the Jews against their Gentile enemies during the Maccabean Wars is explicitly stated in 2 Maccabees 11:13 and 15:8. Illustrating this idea angelic warriors from heaven are said to have appeared to protect the Jews and defeat their enemies in 2 Maccabees 3:24-34; 10:29-31; and 11:8.

13 But Lysias was not a stupid man. He reflected on the defeat he had suffered, and came to realize that the Hebrews were invincible because the mighty God was their ally. He therefore sent a message.

8 He urged his men not to fear the attack of the Gentiles, but mindful of the help they had received in the past from Heaven, to expect now the victory that would be given them by the Almighty.

24 But just as Heliodorus was arriving at the treasury with his bodyguards, the Lord of spirits and all authority produced an apparition so great that those who had been bold enough to accompany Heliodorus were panic-stricken at God’s power and fainted away in terror.25There appeared to them a richly caparisoned horse, mounted by a fearsome rider. Charging furiously, the horse attacked Heliodorus with its front hooves. The rider was seen wearing golden armor. 26Then two other young men, remarkably strong, strikingly handsome, and splendidly attired, appeared before him. Standing on each side of him, they flogged him unceasingly, inflicting innumerable blows.27Suddenly he fell to the ground, enveloped in great darkness. His men picked him up and laid him on a stretcher.28They carried away helpless the man who a moment before had entered that treasury under arms with a great retinue and his whole bodyguard. They clearly recognized the sovereign power of God.

4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

 

[PlainWord]

If you think God doesn't fight on the side of His people, you are sadly mistaken.

29 In the midst of the fierce battle, there appeared to the enemy five majestic men from the heavens riding on golden-bridled horses, leading the Jews. 30 They surrounded Maccabeus, and shielding him with their own armor, kept him from being wounded. They shot arrows and hurled thunderbolts at the enemy, who were bewildered and blinded, routed in utter confusion. 31Twenty thousand five hundred of their foot soldiers and six hundred cavalry were slain.

 

[Absolutely]

Matthew 6:25-34KJV
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Nice verses.

 

[Absolutely]

Please one scripture reading at a time, start posting your claims of a pre-trib rapture

Waiting

I had forgotten about the "like manner" dynamic the divine watermark posted.

Yet another thorn in the poorly thought out ,cliche centered ,postrib rapture theory.

What is that now?
15 or 20 to zip?
Make a comeback!!!!
Get busy.

Truth 7 reply..." uh just post one verse"

Lol

 

[Absolutely]

It says a little more than just "shall so come". It says this [quoting second half of verse]:


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ἐλεύσεται
will come
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[and recall, Acts 1:9-11 is telling of Jesus' SECOND "ascension"... the first one being some "40 days" prior to this scene (ON Firstfruit/His Resurrection Day, Jn20:17) and only TOLD to Mary Magdalene (who was INSTRUCTED to go tell the others), but that scene was not as such that anyone beheld Him "going / traveling / journeying" into heaven as this scene in Acts 1 DOES have it (and which is describing "the manner" ['IN LIKE MANNER'] in which He will "so come"--this referring to His second coming to the earth Rev19, i.e. "traveling / journeying" and "VISIBLY") ]

Cue sarc;

Oh I get it,Jesus left the planet on a horse with millions of horses to redeem heaven and fight the devil in heaven and chain him up for a thousand years.
The planet was destroyed and judged when Jesus left. And the bride had become the wife right at JESUS'S departure."

I mean how In the world did this postrib rapture baloney ever get traction????

.....because the early believers FORMED A SKEWED DOCTRINE while looking at a destroyed israel/Jerusalem/ and scattered disenfranchised/judged people.

That is WHERE that postrib rapture nonsense ORIGINATED.

 

[Absolutely]

Returning to earth is adding to the scripture?

You run and hide from my post in complete silence on Zechariah 14:4, in Jesus Christ returning to earth, a standard in your responses, wiggle, bend, and twist

Acts 1:9-12KJV
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Zechariah 14:4KJV
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Lol
same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in ""LIKE MANNER"" as ye have seen him go into heaven"

TOO FUNNY.

But thanks for pointing out that in the pretrib rapture Jesus comes EXACTLY like he left.
EXACTLY.

So spot on Holy Spirit!!!

That is how we can know we are oasn target!!!
The pretrib rapture CONFIRMED OVER AND OVER BY THE AWESOME WORD OF GOD.

 

[PlainWord]

You responses are "Novels" keep it simple?

Okay. The Beast was Rome and it's leaders. The Harlot was Jerusalem. They were in an adulterous affair, the Jews faithful to Rome and rejecting their Messiah. At first everything was fine, Israel submitted to Roman rule and paid their tributes (taxes). They paid double compared to the rest of the empire in order to keep their customs, traditions and worship. The Jewish religious order got to keep their possessions and status for keeping the people in line. The ruling class in both Rome and Jerusalem were happy.

Then the zealots rebelled in 66 AD. The ten horns (leaders) of the Beast then turned on the harlot, and destroyed her. Simple enough?

 

[PlainWord]

Lol
same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in ""LIKE MANNER"" as ye have seen him go into heaven"

TOO FUNNY.

But thanks for pointing out that in the pretrib rapture Jesus comes EXACTLY like he left.
EXACTLY.

So spot on Holy Spirit!!!

That is how we can know we are oasn target!!!
The pretrib rapture CONFIRMED OVER AND OVER BY THE AWESOME WORD OF GOD.

Not quite. The Father comes before the Tribulation and the Son comes after. So you are all WRONG.

 

[Absolutely]

Show me.

The only postrib gathering is in heaven.
Rev 19 shows THAT GATHERING. It says the BRIDE has become THE WIFE.
That happens in heaven.

Think about it.

In your template you have the church gathered at the release of the king coming with the saints on white horses.
They meet the Lord in the clouds....NEVER SEE HEAVEN!!!

Poorly thought out and ONLY WORKS if my verses are either ignored or reframed.
Rev 14
Mat 25
Mat 24
Rev 19
Lot
Noah
The dialog at the last supper
The ac killing every human refusing the mark
1 thes 4(only those in christ resurrected....and that pre living saints) you have it post living...[rev 14])

You need all that changed!!!!
Wow

Add one more;
Rev 14
Mat 25
Mat 24
Rev 19
Lot
Noah
The dialog at the last supper
The ac killing every human refusing the mark
1 thes 4(only those in christ resurrected....and that pre living saints) you have it post living...[rev 14])

Acts 1 9:11...Jesus returns exactly like he leaves...as depicted in the pretrib rapture model.

Thanks Devine water and truth 7 for reminding me.

The list is Growing!!!
I count 10 to zip!!!!
....or did you guys ever come with a verse?
Lol

 

[Absolutely]

Add one more;
Rev 14
Mat 25
Mat 24
Rev 19
Lot
Noah
The dialog at the last supper
The ac killing every human refusing the mark
1 thes 4(only those in christ resurrected....and that pre living saints) you have it post living...[rev 14])


Thanks Devine water and truth 7 for reminding me.

The list is Growing!!!
I count 10 to zip!!!!
....or did you guys ever come with a verse?
Lol

We can call the new one the 9 1 1 of the debate.

Get a postrib workbook and call 911

Lol

 

[Absolutely]

Will await Next reply

..."post a verse"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I firmly believe, and the internal evidence of Revelation itself, strongly suggests that it was written after the death of Nero in 68 AD but before the coming of Titus in early 70 AD. Thus, it was written before Vespasian claimed the throne during the time the kingdom of Rome was cast into darkness, during their civil war of 69 AD. Thus, the Lord coming quickly was 100% accurate.

When do you believe "Antipas" was martyred?

[quoting old post of mine]

Who do you believe Rev2:13's "Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who WAS SLAIN among you" ?

Some [most?] sources say he was martyred AFTER 70ad... What is your view on that?

Metropolis of Pergamum (Wikipedia) -

"The Christian community of Pergamon was one of the earliest established in Asia Minor during the 1st century AD. It also comprised one of the Seven Churches of Asia mentioned at the New Testament Book of Revelation, written by John the Apostle. According to the Christian tradition, Antipas was appointed bishop of Pergamon, by John. He was martyred there in 92 AD.[3]"

[end quoting old post]