Support Israel? Yes or No? And Why?

[kaylagrl]

Well, it is a real mess over there Kayla. I am not so interested in the politics, as already if you read Haaretz or whatever you can have 101 different political views straight off the bat. Probably the leading contender is Netanyahu avoiding jail by starting a war. And besides, you, me, we live thousands of miles away and don't probably know an awful lot about the ins and outs of it.
Personally i think this kind of question is loaded. Sometimes in an argument both sides have validity. But realistically, this is ugly as hell - citizens and children being killed left right and centre, which technically is against all international law, (and by my definition is terrorism), phosporus weapons, etc etc, so i certainly am not in a hurry to take sides without a full understanding which I do not have. [Clearly, being European and watching Islamic extremism close up here, it would be easy for me to unequivocally side with israel.

Since I view Israel purely in terms of the Bible, and as a spiritual matter, i.e. I don't think it really makes a jot of sense to talk about Israel as a secular enterprise, the question is not what I think or who I support, but what God thinks. This at least through careful study of scripture and prayer, i may get to understand. These questions are, to me, complex, and I feel I am learning every day. Again, for lack of understanding, I prefer not to make big calls.

Yes, it is a real mess. There will never be peace in the ME until Christ returns. You are totally entitled to your thoughts and opinions on the subject and finding where you stand on it all. But I have read and researched on this for years and historically and Biblically, Israel is not in the wrong and have a right to defend their homeland. Israel did not start this war, the Arabs started this war in 48, when Israel claimed their homeland again. And they haven't stopped since. So I believe the land belongs to the Jewish people. But I understand you have yet to make up your mind and you are entitled to do so. [/QUOTE]

 

[kaylagrl]

I suppose scripturally Surfer it boils down to baptisms.
The church is baptized in the Holy Spirit, Old Covenant Israel is under the baptism of fire.
jesus administers both baptisms, so all come through Jesus, one way or another.
There is no third way!!

It makes no sense for Christians to kick up about this, as the grace baptism is obviously a million times preferable to the fire baptism.

No one here is saying there is a third way to be saved.

 

[kaylagrl]

Of course. Yes. The Jews simply have a special function.
At present they cannot see Jesus because of the veil,
just as Moses put a veil over his face so they could not
see the glory of God shining in him.
I am sure that when they see Jesus after they die they will recognize his glory and it's all good,
(unless they have done something really bad in their life which God is not going to let pass.)

Re dual covenant....yes, there are definitely several covenants in play.
The two that I think are active in this context are the Abrahamic which we are under,
and the Moabite covenant, which the Jews are under.
(The Moabite refers back to the Sinitic which points forward to the Abrahamic, which however predates the Sinitic!! Complex...lol)

Abrahamic is still in effect for the Jews, God's chosen people. As you say, right now they are blinded for a time. But God is not done with Israel/Jews yet, not by a long shot.

 

[kaylagrl]

Matthew 21:43KJV
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

No, you're hawking replacement theology. The promises God made under the Abrahamic covenant are still to be fulfilled to the Jewish people. And He will keep those everlasting promises.

 

[OldSage]

No one here is saying there is a third way to be saved.

It was a joke...

 

[kaylagrl]

Gentiles Have Been Grafted Into The Promise By Faith In Jesus Christ, And The Remnant Jew Also, The Church

(Two Israel's Are Seen Below)

(1) Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed

(2) National Ethnic Israel

The Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

They which are the children of the flesh (Jews) these are not the children of God

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all (1)Israel, which are of (2)Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:29KJV
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

No! Romans 11 is clear, you are not Israel. Israel is Israel!! Why is that so complicated? That chapter is utterly clear about who is who. Why do you keep insisting on replacement theology?! The promises are not yours! They were not made to you, and God will fulfill them to the people He promises them to. Not you!

 

[OldSage]

Abrahamic is still in effect for the Jews, God's chosen people. As you say, right now they are blinded for a time. But God is not done with Israel/Jews yet, not by a long shot.

Yes, it's active, but unless they accept it, it is not really in effect - then they put themselves back under the Moabite Covenant.
It is a belief Covenant, belief that Jesus is the Messiah, Son Of God.

 

[OldSage]

No! Romans 11 is clear, you are not Israel. Israel is Israel!! Why is that so complicated? That chapter is utterly clear about who is who. Why do you keep insisting on replacement theology?! The promises are not yours! They were not made to you, and God will fulfill them to the people He promises them to. Not you!

Yeh but Kayla, you are splitting hairs. The broken branches are joined back to the root, not vice versa.

 

[kaylagrl]

Without race and heritage there would have been no Israel and no Jesus though. And without heritage there would be no Church, as we inherit the promises of Abraham. In fact we are heirs to Israel. That is pretty mind-blowing 7.
Even desolate Jerusalem, the cursed Jews, have been used by God for a specific purpose for 2000 years.

In 48 Israel became the "nation born in a day". Yes, the Jews have been punished for failing to spread the Gospel of Christ. But they have also been blessed. Israel is flowering the a desert, that is a prophesy fulfilled. Jews from all over the world are coming back to their homeland, just as the Bible said would happen. But there are promises yet to fulfilled to Israel that have nothing to do with the church. And since 48, God is lining the nations up and Israel will be the stone that dashes them. The world will know through Israel that God is real and He defends His people.

 

[Truth7t7]

What needs to be pushed into the sea is that monsterous arab temple.

I strongly believe a 3rd temple will be built, with renewed animal sacrifice as Isaiah 66:1-4 suggest's, as you seem to promote the idea?

Because this will be the very place the Man if Sin/The Beast/The Antichrist, will be revealed

With Zionist teachings that many promote, paving the way for this false walk on christ

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Many falsely teach Jesus Christ will return to earth, taking a literal throne of David in Jerusalem, to start a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans present?

This figure will be the Man Of Sin, The False Christ, The Antichrist, "Beware"!

Jesus Christ Wont Be Found Any Place Upon This Earth, And He Warned His Followers Of The End Time Deception

"Believe it Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The Future Antichrist And False Prophet

Revelation 13:11-13KJV
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[OldSage]

I mean look, the Church was originally Jewish, plain and simple.
That is why Paui always used synagogues as his first port of call.
Christianity was considered as simply judaism by the Roman Empire,
and therefore could operate under
the Jewish religio licita special exemption that was extended by the Roman Empire.

 

[kaylagrl]

The Church is just Israel grown-up. New Covenant Israel as promised throughout scripture. God however chose in his infinite wisdom to keep some of Old Covenant Israel - more commonly called 'The Jews' - in the chattels of the Old Covenant. Eventually their hearts of stone will be replaced by hearts of flesh. God is an incredible surgeon.

Yes, God will take away their sins and they will recognize their Messiah and will mourn. God made promises to Abraham and his descendants and He will fulfill them.

 

[kaylagrl]

Romans 11 is about Israel. Not about gentiles and not about the church. If it is about the church. The scripture loses harmnony.

It's so utterly simple, yet they keep stumbling over it. smh The heresy of replacement theology has done so much damage to the church, more importantly to the Jewish people who have been persecuted and murdered because of it. So sad people still believe it.

 

[OldSage]

It's so utterly simple, yet they keep stumbling over it. smh The heresy of replacement theology has done so much damage to the church, more importantly to the Jewish people who have been persecuted and murdered because of it. So sad people still believe it.

Yes this is true.

 

[kaylagrl]

Yes, it's active, but unless they accept it, it is not really in effect - then they put themselves back under the Moabite Covenant.
It is a belief Covenant, belief that Jesus is the Messiah, Son Of God.

But they will believe and accept it, that is what Romans 11 is talking about.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, you're hawking replacement theology. The promises God made under the Abrahamic covenant are still to be fulfilled to the Jewish people. And He will keep those everlasting promises.

Those promises have been fulfilled in the Church, by the finished work on Calvary

Jesus Christ is the promised seed, and his children are the Church

Galatians 3:16-29KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(Two Israel's Are Seen Below)

(1) Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed

(2) National Ethnic Israel

The Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

They which are the children of the flesh (Jews) these are not the children of God

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all (1)Israel, which are of (2)Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's so utterly simple, yet they keep stumbling over it. smh The heresy of replacement theology has done so much damage to the church, more importantly to the Jewish people who have been persecuted and murdered because of it. So sad people still believe it.

Sadly, The jews are still in sin. But yeah the jewish believers who are of Christ have even been attacked nonsensically because of their heritage. Its sad.

It stems from Pride. We think we can do what the jews failed to do. and do not want to fail as they failed. Yet scripture states emphatically we will fail as they failed. Making the same mistakes they did. we see it today. Most stems from a mistranslation of prophecy as well as the false gospel of works which caused them to fail.

 

[kaylagrl]

I strongly believe a 3rd temple will be built, with renewed animal sacrifice as Isaiah 66:1-4 suggest's, as you seem to promote the idea?

Because this will be the very place the Man if Sin/The Beast/The Antichrist, will be revealed

With Zionist teachings that many promote, paving the way for this false walk on christ

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Many falsely teach Jesus Christ will return to earth, taking a literal throne of David in Jerusalem, to start a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans present?

This figure will be the Man Of Sin, The False Christ, The Antichrist, "Beware"!

Jesus Christ Wont Be Found Any Place Upon This Earth, And He Warned His Followers Of The End Time Deception

"Believe it Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The Future Antichrist And False Prophet

Revelation 13:11-13KJV
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Wow. The anti-Christ will fool the Jews, they will believe their Messiah has come. But he will do something in the temple, some believe he will kill a pig, and the Jews will know in that moment this is not their Messiah. The Romans 11 blinders will fall off and they will mourn because they will realize what they have done. And then Christ will return and He will defend Israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But they will believe and accept it, that is what Romans 11 is talking about.

Amen, WHen the blindness in part has been removed, and ALL ISRAEL will be saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow. The anti-Christ will fool the Jews, they will believe their Messiah has come. But he will do something in the temple, some believe he will kill a pig, and the Jews will know in that moment this is not their Messiah. The Romans 11 blinders will fall off and they will mourn because they will realize what they have done. And then Christ will return and He will defend Israel.

And he will set up his kingdom. as all nations worship him as king.