Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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Because the ONLY TWO verses that frame the rapture or gathering with the Tribulation place the rapture at the END of the Tribulaton, when Christ returns the SECOND time. No other reason.
If you really believe this, then explain both Matt 24:31 and 2 Thess 2:1 to prove that they cannot be referencing the END of the trib and there is no rapture in either verse.
iow, money where mouth is.
If you really believe this, then explain both Matt 24:31 and 2 Thess 2:1 to prove that they cannot be referencing the END of the trib and there is no rapture in either verse.
iow, money where mouth is.
Matt24:29-31 is NOT a "Rapture" passage (as I said).
As for 2Th2:1 (as I just showed in my last post), Paul is making the point in this CONTEXT that "the Day of the Lord" (earthly-located) TIME-PERIOD will not be present to unfold upon the earth (with its JUDGMENTs and its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME), until ONE THING happens *FIRST*--that 2:1 noun-event! ("OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... aka "THE Departure [*FIRST*]"--our RELOCATION by means of the "SNATCH"!)
As for 2Th2:1 (as I just showed in my last post), Paul is making the point in this CONTEXT that "the Day of the Lord" (earthly-located) TIME-PERIOD will not be present to unfold upon the earth (with its JUDGMENTs and its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME), until ONE THING happens *FIRST*--that 2:1 noun-event! ("OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... aka "THE Departure [*FIRST*]"--our RELOCATION by means of the "SNATCH"!)
As a P.S. to my last post addressing yours... I had meant to add... I've never stated that Matt24 does not have a "gathering" (I agree it DOES)... just that it is NOT our "Rapture [/SNATCH / CAUGHT UP/-AWAY]" IN THE AIR!
What I've pointed out is:
--there is more than ONE "harvest" in Scripture, and in nature
--James 1:18 says, "a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there's more than ONE!); and indeed, Lev23 mentions TWO "firstfruit" (where Rev14:4's 144,000 called "firstfruit" there, corresponds with the SECOND of the TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23, that of v.17, where that verse states, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"<--that ain't US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY)
--*that* ^ harvest (the WHEAT harvest [again, WE are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest!]) is harvested by means of a "TRIBULUM" (harvesting implement); whereas the EARLIER harvest, by means of "TOSSING INTO THE AIR" (and BLOWING away the chaff)
--the "WHEAT" harvest passage (Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50... when the ANGELS will REAP) corresponds with Matthew 24-25 ("the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" in both passages, where their Q of Jesus in 24:3 was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13, and His RESPONSE [both chpts 24 & 25] corresponds--speaking of the "WHEAT" harvest point in time at the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19--so I am NOT denying the "harvest" component, whatsoever! [there is MORE THAN ONE "harvest" in Scripture, and in nature!])
What I've pointed out is:
--there is more than ONE "harvest" in Scripture, and in nature
--James 1:18 says, "a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there's more than ONE!); and indeed, Lev23 mentions TWO "firstfruit" (where Rev14:4's 144,000 called "firstfruit" there, corresponds with the SECOND of the TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23, that of v.17, where that verse states, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"<--that ain't US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY)
--*that* ^ harvest (the WHEAT harvest [again, WE are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest!]) is harvested by means of a "TRIBULUM" (harvesting implement); whereas the EARLIER harvest, by means of "TOSSING INTO THE AIR" (and BLOWING away the chaff)
--the "WHEAT" harvest passage (Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50... when the ANGELS will REAP) corresponds with Matthew 24-25 ("the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" in both passages, where their Q of Jesus in 24:3 was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13, and His RESPONSE [both chpts 24 & 25] corresponds--speaking of the "WHEAT" harvest point in time at the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19--so I am NOT denying the "harvest" component, whatsoever!
[there is MORE THAN ONE "harvest" in Scripture, and in nature!])
What one says has no weight. What the Bible says, otoh, is everything.
You did not prove that "gathered" cannot mean the rapture. And you didn't prove that is refers to something completely different.
I really wish you'd clean up your posts. I'm not the only one who has noted how difficult it is to wade through all your innecessary punctuation marks.
No, Paul made the very clear point in v.1 that Christ's Second Advent and the "gathering" occurs together.
You are incorrect about "that one thing" that happens first. You claim it is pointing back to v.1
Nope. Paul was clear what would happen first:
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (day of the Lord, v.2) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
The Day of the Lord is NOT "the coming of our Lord", as you seem to guess. The Day of the Lord encompasses the entire time span that begins with His Second return to earth, which we call the Second Advent.
So what must happen FIRST, before Christ's Second Advent is the rebellion and a/c revealed (v.3).
So you have your facts scrambled.
You did not prove that "gathered" cannot mean the rapture. And you didn't prove that is refers to something completely different.
As for 2Th2:1 (as I just showed in my last post), Paul is making the point in this CONTEXT that "the Day of the Lord" (earthly-located) TIME-PERIOD will not be present to unfold upon the earth (with its JUDGMENTs and its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME), until ONE THING happens *FIRST*--that 2:1 noun-event! ("OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... aka "THE Departure [*FIRST*]"--our RELOCATION by means of the "SNATCH"!)
No, Paul made the very clear point in v.1 that Christ's Second Advent and the "gathering" occurs together.
You are incorrect about "that one thing" that happens first. You claim it is pointing back to v.1
Nope. Paul was clear what would happen first:
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (day of the Lord, v.2) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
The Day of the Lord is NOT "the coming of our Lord", as you seem to guess. The Day of the Lord encompasses the entire time span that begins with His Second return to earth, which we call the Second Advent.
So what must happen FIRST, before Christ's Second Advent is the rebellion and a/c revealed (v.3).
So you have your facts scrambled.
Verse 1 is ONLY speaking of ONE POINT IN TIME (our Rapture--v.1 ['IN THE AIR'--ONLY *US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY*]).
And *that* ^ is NOT at His "MANIFESTATION" [i.e. His Second Advent / RETURN to the earth] point in time (per v.8b--LOTSA STUFF happens BETWEEN those two distinct points in time! )
And *that* ^ is NOT at His "MANIFESTATION" [i.e. His Second Advent / RETURN to the earth] point in time (per v.8b--LOTSA STUFF happens BETWEEN those two distinct points in time!
)I'm fairly certain I've witnessed you saying (on several occasions, throughout these threads, and not merely once) that you acknowledge "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES at (the START OF) and INCLUDES the 7-yr trib. (Which *is* correct!)
However, I've also witnessed you going back and forth, with this, and even changing it back (to again say what you've put HERE ^ ) *when it suits your current argument*.
Be consistent, man!
Pick one, and STICK WITH IT! lol
[who can help me with a "SEARCH" to find the several posts where FrGr2 has said "the Day of the Lord" INCLUDES the Trib yrs? I'm fairly certain he has said this NUMEROUS TIMES, and that it's not just my imagination! LOL]
However, I've also witnessed you going back and forth, with this, and even changing it back (to again say what you've put HERE ^ ) *when it suits your current argument*.
Be consistent, man!
Pick one, and STICK WITH IT! lol
[who can help me with a "SEARCH" to find the several posts where FrGr2 has said "the Day of the Lord" INCLUDES the Trib yrs? I'm fairly certain he has said this NUMEROUS TIMES, and that it's not just my imagination! LOL]
I've NOT stated such, and I've NEVER "guessed" such (other than to say that "the DOTL" *INCLUDES* the 7 Trib yrs unfolding upon the earth, Christ's Second Coming to the earth, AND the entire earthly MK age--ALL THREE ASPECTS... a VERY LENGTHY "TIME-PERIOD").
I've continually stated those are DISTINCT ITEMS ("the DOTL" being a "TIME-PERIOD," earthly-located).
"The Day of the Lord's *ARRIVAL*" is the EARTHLY-located TIME-PERIOD of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth, over the course of SOME TIME (and INCLUDES "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME... the "IN THE NIGHT" ['DARK / DARKNESS'] time-period, aka the TRIB YRS)...
...it is a TIME-PERIOD that *ARRIVES* to unfold upon the earth ...
...(DISTINCT FROM "our Lord's" OWN PERSONAL "RETURN" to the earth / His ARRIVAL / PRESENCE to the earth, at His "MANIFESTATION" / "SHALL SHEW / OPENLY MANIFEST" point in time, Rev19 [1Ti6:15] / 2Th2:8b)
I've continually stated those are DISTINCT ITEMS ("the DOTL" being a "TIME-PERIOD," earthly-located).
"The Day of the Lord's *ARRIVAL*" is the EARTHLY-located TIME-PERIOD of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth, over the course of SOME TIME (and INCLUDES "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME... the "IN THE NIGHT" ['DARK / DARKNESS'] time-period, aka the TRIB YRS)...
...it is a TIME-PERIOD that *ARRIVES* to unfold upon the earth ...
...(DISTINCT FROM "our Lord's" OWN PERSONAL "RETURN" to the earth / His ARRIVAL / PRESENCE to the earth, at His "MANIFESTATION" / "SHALL SHEW / OPENLY MANIFEST" point in time, Rev19 [1Ti6:15] / 2Th2:8b)
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Again, I've not denied there is a "gathering" in Matt24:29-31 (just stating that it is NOT "our SNATCH"!)
Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:12-13... which you questioned in an earlier post, suggesting that it is "past" (along with the Isaiah 11:11-12,12:1-6 passages I supplied).
But that just tells me you've not really bothered looking into the CONTEXT of Isaiah 27:12-13 (which is in the section of Isaiah 24-27 commonly known as "the little apocalypse" [compare 24:21-22[23] with Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5, for example]):
...where Isa27 says:
--"1 In that day the LORD will take His sharp, great, and mighty sword, and bring judgment on Leviathan the fleeing serpenta—Leviathan the coiling serpent—and He will slay the dragon of the sea."
--"9 Therefore Jacob’s guilt will be atoned for, and the full fruit of the removal of his sin will be this:c" (quoted in Romans 11:27, about "Israel's FUTURE" [yet "future" to us presently])
--[and the verses I pointed to] 12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphratesd to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem. "
[i.e. gathered to one place upon the earth... "to worship the LORD in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM" (this is NOT the "SNATCH"-action re: the [snatch / gathering] "AS ONE"... the "ONE BODY"... "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US... NO.]
2:1 is not.
2:8b is (and so is Matt24:29-31, as I've pointed out)... which is His "MANIFESTATION" / "SHALL SHEW / OPENLY MANIFEST" Rev19 [/1Tim6:15] / 2Th2:8b point in time.
They are TWO DISTINCT ITEMS, at TWO DISTINCT POINTS-in-time, with MUCH transpiring BETWEEN those two distinct points-in-time.
Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:12-13... which you questioned in an earlier post, suggesting that it is "past" (along with the Isaiah 11:11-12,12:1-6 passages I supplied).
But that just tells me you've not really bothered looking into the CONTEXT of Isaiah 27:12-13 (which is in the section of Isaiah 24-27 commonly known as "the little apocalypse" [compare 24:21-22[23] with Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5, for example]):
...where Isa27 says:
--"1 In that day the LORD will take His sharp, great, and mighty sword, and bring judgment on Leviathan the fleeing serpenta—Leviathan the coiling serpent—and He will slay the dragon of the sea."
--"9 Therefore Jacob’s guilt will be atoned for, and the full fruit of the removal of his sin will be this:c" (quoted in Romans 11:27, about "Israel's FUTURE" [yet "future" to us presently])
--[and the verses I pointed to] 12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphratesd to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem. "
[i.e. gathered to one place upon the earth... "to worship the LORD in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM" (this is NOT the "SNATCH"-action re: the [snatch / gathering] "AS ONE"... the "ONE BODY"... "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US... NO.]
2:1 is not.
2:8b is (and so is Matt24:29-31, as I've pointed out)... which is His "MANIFESTATION" / "SHALL SHEW / OPENLY MANIFEST" Rev19 [/1Tim6:15] / 2Th2:8b point in time.
They are TWO DISTINCT ITEMS, at TWO DISTINCT POINTS-in-time, with MUCH transpiring BETWEEN those two distinct points-in-time.
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FreeGrace2 said:
I really wish you'd clean up your posts. I'm not the only one who has noted how difficult it is to wade through all your innecessary punctuation marks.
I don't recall that you ever did clean them up. I see them all the time, in all the posts you do.
[QUOTR]I find it necessary to clarify, rather than to have you "read INTO" my posts something I have NOT intended (which has happened numerous times, now).[/QUOTE]
What you obviously don't realize is that all that clutter just makes it very difficult to wade through.
So, if you would just cease, maybe it would be easier to follow your thoughts.
I really wish you'd clean up your posts. I'm not the only one who has noted how difficult it is to wade through all your innecessary punctuation marks.
I don't recall that you ever did clean them up. I see them all the time, in all the posts you do.
[QUOTR]I find it necessary to clarify, rather than to have you "read INTO" my posts something I have NOT intended (which has happened numerous times, now).[/QUOTE]
What you obviously don't realize is that all that clutter just makes it very difficult to wade through.
So, if you would just cease, maybe it would be easier to follow your thoughts.
Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The future Antichrist will be a (King/Ruler) of (Hebrew/Jewish) Decent, His Fathers WorshippedThe True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)
Daniel 11:36-37KJV
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The future Antichrist will be a (King/Ruler) of (Hebrew/Jewish) Decent, His Fathers WorshippedThe True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)
Daniel 11:36-37KJV
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
FreeGrace2 said:
No, Paul made the very clear point in v.1 that Christ's Second Advent and the "gathering" occurs together.
And that's the whole point. Christ raptures/gathers "those who belong to Him" as ONE POINT IN TIME. What you keep missing or ignoring is the phrase "the coming of our Lord" at the beginning of the verse. That is ONE POINT IN TIME, and we all it the Second Advent. So the rapture IS associated with His Second Coming. Thank you for finally noticing and admitting.
This seems to just be a whole lot of made up stuff.
Of course "the coming of our Lord" refers to His SECOND coming. What else could that phrase mean? You've never explained, at least as far as I could wade through your posts.
No, Paul made the very clear point in v.1 that Christ's Second Advent and the "gathering" occurs together.
And that's the whole point. Christ raptures/gathers "those who belong to Him" as ONE POINT IN TIME. What you keep missing or ignoring is the phrase "the coming of our Lord" at the beginning of the verse. That is ONE POINT IN TIME, and we all it the Second Advent. So the rapture IS associated with His Second Coming. Thank you for finally noticing and admitting.
And *that* ^ is NOT at His "MANIFESTATION" [i.e. His Second Advent / RETURN to the earth] point in time (per v.8b--LOTSA STUFF happens BETWEEN those two distinct points in time! )
)
Of course "the coming of our Lord" refers to His SECOND coming. What else could that phrase mean? You've never explained, at least as far as I could wade through your posts.
FreeGrace2 said:
The Day of the Lord encompasses the entire time span that begins with His Second return to earth, which we call the Second Advent.
No, I've never said that. The Day of the Lord begins when He RETURNS at the Second Advent. Jesus isn't on earth during the Tribulation so why would that 7 yr period be included in the "Day of the Lord"? That doesn't make sense. I HAVE said the Day of the Lord begins when He returns. That makes perfect sense.
If you can prove your claim, which I DENY, then I will apologize for the confusion.
I did and I am.
So, find the post # where you claim I said the DofL begins with the Trib. And I will apologize.
Well, good luck, all of you.
May the fourth be with you. Or somewhere.
The Day of the Lord encompasses the entire time span that begins with His Second return to earth, which we call the Second Advent.
No, I've never said that. The Day of the Lord begins when He RETURNS at the Second Advent. Jesus isn't on earth during the Tribulation so why would that 7 yr period be included in the "Day of the Lord"? That doesn't make sense. I HAVE said the Day of the Lord begins when He returns. That makes perfect sense.
However, I've also witnessed you going back and forth, with this, and even changing it back (to again say what you've put HERE ^ ) *when it suits your current argument*.
Be consistent, man!
Be consistent, man!
I did and I am.
So, find the post # where you claim I said the DofL begins with the Trib. And I will apologize.
Well, good luck, all of you.
May the fourth be with you. Or somewhere.
FreeGrace2 said:
The Day of the Lord is NOT "the coming of our Lord", as you seem to guess.
After all your punctuated and cluttered posts, I STILL DO NOT know what you think "the coming of our Lord" refers to. Could you help me out here?
I don't know what you are trying to say here.
Just address what the "coming of our Lord" means inh v.1. Thanks.
Without all the punctuation clutter, please. Thanks.
The Day of the Lord is NOT "the coming of our Lord", as you seem to guess.
After all your punctuated and cluttered posts, I STILL DO NOT know what you think "the coming of our Lord" refers to. Could you help me out here?
I don't know what you are trying to say here.
Just address what the "coming of our Lord" means inh v.1. Thanks.
Without all the punctuation clutter, please. Thanks.
2 Corinthians 11:14
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
One of the ways Satan gets his foot in the door is with 9 truths with 1 very crafty life. In other words, once trust is obtained he uses it as leverage to manipulate and deceive.
This is why it is more important than ever to know our Biblical truths and to shut down false doctrines when they pop up no matter how long it takes.
Be aware of the schemes of the devil and know the truth. Knowing the truth is one of our defenses against lies. The Belt of Truth.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
One of the ways Satan gets his foot in the door is with 9 truths with 1 very crafty life. In other words, once trust is obtained he uses it as leverage to manipulate and deceive.
This is why it is more important than ever to know our Biblical truths and to shut down false doctrines when they pop up no matter how long it takes.
Be aware of the schemes of the devil and know the truth. Knowing the truth is one of our defenses against lies. The Belt of Truth.
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It's not as if you haven't been shown 100 times that the Church will be present on earth during the tribulation, and witness the second coming of Jesus Christ, as they look up seeing their redemption, just as Luke 21:25-28 below clearly teaches
Why do you constantly deny this scriptural truth below?
Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Why do you constantly deny this scriptural truth below?
Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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