50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Yes, I have been shown John 14 over and over, and I've explained it over and over.
Jesus said nothing about taking raptured believers to heaven.
You are just reading it quite wrong. That's all.
In fact, John 14 has already been fulfilled. Jesus "came back" after His crucifixion, and then went to heaven to "prepare a place" for every believer.
There is nothing about a rapture in John 14.
It takes a whole lot of assumption to see a rapture in John 14. It's not there.
Jesus said nothing about taking raptured believers to heaven.
You are just reading it quite wrong. That's all.
In fact, John 14 has already been fulfilled. Jesus "came back" after His crucifixion, and then went to heaven to "prepare a place" for every believer.
There is nothing about a rapture in John 14.
It takes a whole lot of assumption to see a rapture in John 14. It's not there.
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The first four verses of 2 Thess. 2 state that anti-Christ is revealed before the rapture, not after. No, it is your poor exegesis that states that. A beginning bible student may imagine that it was it says, but a careful study reveals that the departing comes first (because the departing is related to that which is "taken out of the way") , then the revealing and when both of these has happened, then all will know the Day of the Lord has come and they are then in it.
It just isn't plainly stated. What did Peter say about Paul's letters?
2 Pet 3:...in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
if there is no holy Spirit on Earth during the great tribulation This is only speculation on your part. No one has said the Holy Spirit leaves; it is the CHURCH through which the Holy Spirit works that leaves. I have never found a verse that tells us the Holy Spirit leaves.
Revelation 13:5-7 says there will be people on Earth who are born again (saints) during the great tribulation. Without much doubt, moments after the pretrib rapture MILLIONS will discover their mistake and turn to God. It is probably why the 144,000 missed the rapture, but then turned to believing in Jesus. Perhaps God will allow some on earth to see the church leave.
if you miss the wedding there isn't a second chance for salvation. Sorry, not what is says. You have built straw-man after straw-man here. What Jesus said is, "I don't know you." It does not say He won't ever know them.
It just isn't plainly stated. What did Peter say about Paul's letters?
2 Pet 3:...in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
if there is no holy Spirit on Earth during the great tribulation This is only speculation on your part. No one has said the Holy Spirit leaves; it is the CHURCH through which the Holy Spirit works that leaves. I have never found a verse that tells us the Holy Spirit leaves.
Revelation 13:5-7 says there will be people on Earth who are born again (saints) during the great tribulation. Without much doubt, moments after the pretrib rapture MILLIONS will discover their mistake and turn to God. It is probably why the 144,000 missed the rapture, but then turned to believing in Jesus. Perhaps God will allow some on earth to see the church leave.
if you miss the wedding there isn't a second chance for salvation. Sorry, not what is says. You have built straw-man after straw-man here. What Jesus said is, "I don't know you." It does not say He won't ever know them.
I said:
"Show me ANY verse that says Jesus raptures living believers (gathering up) and then TAKES THEM UP TO HEAVEN.
Well, can you?"
If you had, you would have just given it again, to PROVE me wrong. Instead, you only punted because you never did.
There aren't any such verses, and you KNOW it. So quit faking it.
What is "ignorant" is making a claim that the Bible doesn't.
No, ignorance isn't invincible. Truth is invincible.
Since the gathering (rapture to you) occurs at the Second Advent, none of the living believers will ever see heaven. Doesn't matter, since they will be with Jesus forever.
No, the Bible says it.
Yes, pre-trib U-turn is.
Why don't you just quote whatever verse in ch 14 that you are thinking of.
Why don't you tell me?
Since the placement of ch 14 isn't the end of the trib, but during the second half, it appears that ch 14 is a vision of the second coming. But that doesn't occur until ch 19.
Well, I just did.
An outright lie. I've answered EVERY rapture verse provided.
Just read the post.
"Show me ANY verse that says Jesus raptures living believers (gathering up) and then TAKES THEM UP TO HEAVEN.
Well, can you?"
If you had, you would have just given it again, to PROVE me wrong. Instead, you only punted because you never did.
There aren't any such verses, and you KNOW it. So quit faking it.
What is "ignorant" is making a claim that the Bible doesn't.
No, ignorance isn't invincible. Truth is invincible.
Since the gathering (rapture to you) occurs at the Second Advent, none of the living believers will ever see heaven. Doesn't matter, since they will be with Jesus forever.
No, the Bible says it.
Yes, pre-trib U-turn is.
Why don't you just quote whatever verse in ch 14 that you are thinking of.
Why don't you tell me?
Since the placement of ch 14 isn't the end of the trib, but during the second half, it appears that ch 14 is a vision of the second coming. But that doesn't occur until ch 19.
Well, I just did.
An outright lie. I've answered EVERY rapture verse provided.
Just read the post.
Did you not read what I posted?
I said this:
"Jesus said nothing about taking raptured believers to heaven."
So, please show me this teaching that is found in 1 Thess 4.
Of course it's a rapture (or better, a gathering) verse. I've never said otherwise.
What ISN'T THERE is any mention of Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.
If there is, just quote the verse please.
I said this:
"Jesus said nothing about taking raptured believers to heaven."
So, please show me this teaching that is found in 1 Thess 4.
Of course it's a rapture (or better, a gathering) verse. I've never said otherwise.
What ISN'T THERE is any mention of Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.
If there is, just quote the verse please.
No, sorry. That is poor exegesis. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation. 16 times to represent righteousness or Godliness. Do you really imagine God would have John us it 16 times for good and then once for evil? NEVER HAPPEN!
All those that imagine the first seal is to represent the AC Beast or the man of sin turned beast, are pulling that first seal out of its early church context. Don't take my word for it, go and look: in chapter 5 John saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. (God was showing John a video of the throne room from his, (John's) past. You cannot find Jesus in the throne room in chapter 5, because God is showing John the throne room while Jesus was on earth. The truth is, Jesus took the book and began opening seals exactly when John shows us, as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.
Another truth: if the Beast was allowed to choose His color, without a doubt he would choose white. But he did not get to chose: God did. And for the Beast God chose fiery red. The first seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel, around 32 AD.
All those that imagine the first seal is to represent the AC Beast or the man of sin turned beast, are pulling that first seal out of its early church context. Don't take my word for it, go and look: in chapter 5 John saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. (God was showing John a video of the throne room from his, (John's) past. You cannot find Jesus in the throne room in chapter 5, because God is showing John the throne room while Jesus was on earth. The truth is, Jesus took the book and began opening seals exactly when John shows us, as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.
Another truth: if the Beast was allowed to choose His color, without a doubt he would choose white. But he did not get to chose: God did. And for the Beast God chose fiery red. The first seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel, around 32 AD.
I think all you want to do is argue.
Let's run over this again: there is no verse ANYWHERE in scripture that proves a pretrib, a posttrib, a midtrib or a prewrath rapture. NONE!
We don't form doctrine from an isolated verse. Why they do you insist on one? Is that your kind of exegesis? If we take ALL the end times scriptures posttrib is proven as impossible.
Does John 14 mention heaven? You know it does. Why argue then?
Let's run over this again: there is no verse ANYWHERE in scripture that proves a pretrib, a posttrib, a midtrib or a prewrath rapture. NONE!
We don't form doctrine from an isolated verse. Why they do you insist on one? Is that your kind of exegesis? If we take ALL the end times scriptures posttrib is proven as impossible.
Does John 14 mention heaven? You know it does. Why argue then?
It takes far more assumption to imagine John 14 is history! Have you seen your mansion? I have certainly not seen mine. No one I know personally has seen his or hers. I do know of someone that has seen theirs and came back to testify. In fact, I know of two such people. I have read books of many more.
Nah you're definitely misunderstanding the scripture. Paul says the gathering to Jesus occurs after the man of sin is revealed in 2 Thess. 2:1-4. Paul doesn't reverse his position on this at any point. You're failure to comprehend this ruins your exegesis of the scripture.
Yes, my point was the the 'restrainer being taken out of the way" prior to the great tribulation is most likely not the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit can be proven to still be present in saints during the great tribulation as I've already shown.
2 Thessalonians 2:7-9
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
The restrainer being taken out of the way, referred to as a he, is something that must happen before Jesus returns and destroys the anti-Christ. So it's something holding back God's wrath which comes after the great tribulation.
The 6th seal must be taken out of the way by Someone to open the scroll:
Revelation 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
This corresponds to the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-19 and 7th vial in Revelation 16:17-21 which are harbingers of the wrath of God against the anti-Christ at the return of Christ.
I don't suspect you'll be able to accept these truths, but in any case here they are anyway.
Yes, my point was the the 'restrainer being taken out of the way" prior to the great tribulation is most likely not the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit can be proven to still be present in saints during the great tribulation as I've already shown.
2 Thessalonians 2:7-9
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
The restrainer being taken out of the way, referred to as a he, is something that must happen before Jesus returns and destroys the anti-Christ. So it's something holding back God's wrath which comes after the great tribulation.
The 6th seal must be taken out of the way by Someone to open the scroll:
Revelation 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
This corresponds to the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-19 and 7th vial in Revelation 16:17-21 which are harbingers of the wrath of God against the anti-Christ at the return of Christ.
I don't suspect you'll be able to accept these truths, but in any case here they are anyway.
So far I've seen from some, except one, of the pre-tribbers here that post-tribbers are fake Christians who will miss the rapture, go to hell, and are outsiders. Even one of them said he blocked me, but then later reversed that decision.
This is the kind of attitude some of them have as if the deceptions and false doctrines weren't enough. They're quite aggressive and hateful when the pre-trib rapture gets debunked.
This is the kind of attitude some of them have as if the deceptions and false doctrines weren't enough. They're quite aggressive and hateful when the pre-trib rapture gets debunked.
We as pretribbers over the years have left the door WIDE OPEN for criticism. For example, trying to say the rapture is in Rev. 4:1. Even a beginning reader could tell that was JOHN caught up, not the church.
I want to close all doors to criticism. Anything that has been classical pretrib that was in error we must correct. One of the big errors of classical pretrib thought is that the seals are a part of the 70th week. They are not and that can be proven with good bible exegesis.
If we just follow the text, John shows us clearly that the timing of the first seal opened was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended.
Look at it this way: Rev 1 was while John was alive. Rev. 21 is far into our future. It is logical then that somewhere between chapter 1 and chapter 21 is where the church is NOW. How would we find that? I think we both agree that no trumpet has sounded, so we are before any trumpet.
Since it is at the 7th seal that the angels get the trumpets, that is future too.
There has never been a worldwide earthquake such as seen at the 6th seal, so that too is future.
Are martyrs being killed today? Certainly. We would both agree. So we could say that the 5th seal is still ongoing.
If we start at the first seal and ask: has this happened? We need to check the context of that first seal to answer. God had a problem: He wanted to show John about this book with seven seals, but He wanted to start the vision while the book was still in the hands of the Father. The problem was, John was going to see this vision some 60 years after the fact! How was God going to show John something 60 years into his past in a vision of future events? Here is how God did it"
He showed John a throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN. (Would Jesus as the second person of the Godhood have been seen at the Father's right hand while He was on earth as a human?)
He showed a throne room with the Holy Spirit there - when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended.
He showed John a search for one worthy that ended in failure.
Then He showed John a search that found Jesus as worthy.
Then He showed John the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.
Without a doubt, John understood that part of the vision was history for him, when Jesus was on earth, then rose from the dead, then ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. All that was to show us, the readers, that Jesus opened that first seal around 32 AD. OF COURSE it is to represent the church sent out with the gospel.
Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel: but God LIMITED them in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. Where has two world wars started? In that 1/4th. Where have all the famines been in our lifetime: In Africa: again in that 1/4. In fact, these three riders ride together, but the white horse rider rides alone.
What am I getting at? The rider on the white horse in seal 1 is the church sent out with the gospel.
I want to close all doors to criticism. Anything that has been classical pretrib that was in error we must correct. One of the big errors of classical pretrib thought is that the seals are a part of the 70th week. They are not and that can be proven with good bible exegesis.
If we just follow the text, John shows us clearly that the timing of the first seal opened was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended.
Look at it this way: Rev 1 was while John was alive. Rev. 21 is far into our future. It is logical then that somewhere between chapter 1 and chapter 21 is where the church is NOW. How would we find that? I think we both agree that no trumpet has sounded, so we are before any trumpet.
Since it is at the 7th seal that the angels get the trumpets, that is future too.
There has never been a worldwide earthquake such as seen at the 6th seal, so that too is future.
Are martyrs being killed today? Certainly. We would both agree. So we could say that the 5th seal is still ongoing.
If we start at the first seal and ask: has this happened? We need to check the context of that first seal to answer. God had a problem: He wanted to show John about this book with seven seals, but He wanted to start the vision while the book was still in the hands of the Father. The problem was, John was going to see this vision some 60 years after the fact! How was God going to show John something 60 years into his past in a vision of future events? Here is how God did it"
He showed John a throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN. (Would Jesus as the second person of the Godhood have been seen at the Father's right hand while He was on earth as a human?)
He showed a throne room with the Holy Spirit there - when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended.
He showed John a search for one worthy that ended in failure.
Then He showed John a search that found Jesus as worthy.
Then He showed John the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.
Without a doubt, John understood that part of the vision was history for him, when Jesus was on earth, then rose from the dead, then ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. All that was to show us, the readers, that Jesus opened that first seal around 32 AD. OF COURSE it is to represent the church sent out with the gospel.
Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel: but God LIMITED them in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. Where has two world wars started? In that 1/4th. Where have all the famines been in our lifetime: In Africa: again in that 1/4. In fact, these three riders ride together, but the white horse rider rides alone.
What am I getting at? The rider on the white horse in seal 1 is the church sent out with the gospel.
All but those that run out to meet the groom face the ac.
You will have to refuse the mark (when you get your wish of missing the rapture)
Only if you take the mark do you face the lof.
Of those waiting for Jesus ,(pretribbers), only about half are taken as shown in mat 24 and 25
Dont get mad...get right.
Believe whatever you like.
We are still waiting for a single verse to convert us into being a postribber.
I already covered the entire postrib workbook cover to cover.
No verses are incorporated in unpacking the rapture .(as you also demonstrate of course).
All you " know" is that it supposedly can not be pretrib.
But those same verses made me switch to pretrib.
It is fear that keeps you clinging to a false hope of facing the antichrist.
Read the 7 letters to the 7 churches.
You will have to refuse the mark (when you get your wish of missing the rapture)
Only if you take the mark do you face the lof.
Of those waiting for Jesus ,(pretribbers), only about half are taken as shown in mat 24 and 25
Dont get mad...get right.
Believe whatever you like.
We are still waiting for a single verse to convert us into being a postribber.
I already covered the entire postrib workbook cover to cover.
No verses are incorporated in unpacking the rapture .(as you also demonstrate of course).
All you " know" is that it supposedly can not be pretrib.
But those same verses made me switch to pretrib.
It is fear that keeps you clinging to a false hope of facing the antichrist.
Read the 7 letters to the 7 churches.
There can be no doubt, those that miss the pretrib coming and rapture will meet the Beast - either face to face or by others trying to enforce the image and the mark.
Imagine if you will, a Jew still hiding in Berlin in 1943. His chances of survival are slim to none. He will be found and executed.
Now picture a similar scene but worldwide. There are going to be very few places to hide with modern technology.
I can only go by what is written. When I read Heb. 9, the last verse, I read that Jesus is coming for those LOOKING FOR His coming.
Can you honestly say that if Jesus came to the clouds tonight that you would be "looking for" Him - EXPECTING Him?
Imagine if you will, a Jew still hiding in Berlin in 1943. His chances of survival are slim to none. He will be found and executed.
Now picture a similar scene but worldwide. There are going to be very few places to hide with modern technology.
I can only go by what is written. When I read Heb. 9, the last verse, I read that Jesus is coming for those LOOKING FOR His coming.
Can you honestly say that if Jesus came to the clouds tonight that you would be "looking for" Him - EXPECTING Him?
The truth is, in verse 3b the man of sin is revealed.
The truth is, in verses 6-8 the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the restraining force is taken out of the way.
Therefore, please tell us with your exegesis, WHAT OR WHO in verse 3a get's "taken out of the way" that could be a restraining force preventing the man of sin from being revealed before his time.
Then next, tell us who or what this restrainer is. Since Paul wrote, "now you know, go ahead and tell us.
The truth is, in verses 6-8 the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the restraining force is taken out of the way.
Therefore, please tell us with your exegesis, WHAT OR WHO in verse 3a get's "taken out of the way" that could be a restraining force preventing the man of sin from being revealed before his time.
Then next, tell us who or what this restrainer is. Since Paul wrote, "now you know, go ahead and tell us.