50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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FreeGrace2 said:
What is your point here? All you've done is quote some verses, and end with quoting the BKC.
Here is my point AGAIN:
Show me ANY verse that says Jesus raptures living believers (gathering up) and then TAKES THEM UP TO HEAVEN.
Well, can you?
There are many who also understand that there is no pre-trib rapture and trip to heaven. Becausee there are no verses that teach that.
But you are correct that it is "the evangelical position". Which is sad, because there isn't any evidence for it in Scripture.
What is your point here? All you've done is quote some verses, and end with quoting the BKC.
Here is my point AGAIN:
Show me ANY verse that says Jesus raptures living believers (gathering up) and then TAKES THEM UP TO HEAVEN.
Well, can you?
There are many who also understand that there is no pre-trib rapture and trip to heaven. Becausee there are no verses that teach that.
But you are correct that it is "the evangelical position". Which is sad, because there isn't any evidence for it in Scripture.
Thanks! Finally!
So in 3b he is revealed: I counted 34 English translations that puts it "Is revealed." So we have established this as fact. Yes, I further agree: once he is revealed he "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God "
Here is a sample of the 34
AMP
Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed],
NIV
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
EHV
Let no one deceive you in any way, because that day will not come until the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed—the son of destruction.
ESV
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
ESVUK
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
Now let's look at verses 6-8
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
First notice the parallelism in the colors: red is about a restraining power and purple is the revealing
The same parallel is seen in verse 3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Do you see this? Do you agree there is parallelism?
Now back to verses 6-8: HOW does Paul inform us will the man of sin be revealed "in his time?" Paul explains there is a restraining force restraining the revealing, so he cannot be revealed BEFORE his time? It should go without saying and without Paul spelling it out that GOD sets the timing. God wants His revealing at a certain time.
So Paul's answer to HOW is simple: the restraining force or power will be "taken out of the way" at the right time. Agreed?
My point is this: since in 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED, then in 3a somewhere there must be a restraining force "taken out of the way."
Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy [apostasia: departing"] comes first
Go ahead: search every word looking for anything that could possibly be the restraining force "taken out of the way."
Let no one no, does not fit
in any way deceive or entrap you no, does not fit.
that day will not come no, does not fit
apostasia: departing" this could fit!
The only word or phrase that I find could possibly be a restrainer "taken out of the way" is "apostasia" which in the first several English translations was translated as a "departing."
Could a "falling away" fit a restraining force? How could something evil restrain something evil and be taken out of the way AT THE RIGHT TIME so the revealing would happen in GOD's time? Sorry, it does not fit.
Now look at verse 6 again;
6 And now ye know what withholdeth
CSB
And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time.
CEB
Now you know what holds him back so that he can be revealed when his time comes.
CJB
And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time.
CEV
You already know what is holding this wicked one back until it is time for him to come.
DARBY
And now ye know that which restrains, that he should be revealed in his own time.
Paul wrote, "and now you know who or what is restraining....."
Why would Paul write that? The "now" is there in the Greek. NOW you know...just as if Paul had just TOLD US who the restrainer is. In fact, Paul did just tell us. Yet many still don't know because they don't understand this passage.
I have shown over and over that the first part of apostasia from strong's is apo and Strong's tells us it could mean a part of a whole group moved spatially to a different location. And the other half "stasia" meaning stationary or not moving. It is an absolute fact that the rapture will happen so fast the rest of the world will seem not moving.
Since Paul's theme for this passage is the gathering which really is a departing, I think this is Paul's real meaning. The Holy Spirit is the restraining force: HE knows the right timing. And He, working through the church to restrain, will be "taken out of the way" with the church. A moment after the rapture and the Holy Spirit will have no one on earth He can use.
So in 3b he is revealed: I counted 34 English translations that puts it "Is revealed." So we have established this as fact. Yes, I further agree: once he is revealed he "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God "
Here is a sample of the 34
AMP
Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed],
NIV
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
EHV
Let no one deceive you in any way, because that day will not come until the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed—the son of destruction.
ESV
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
ESVUK
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
Now let's look at verses 6-8
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
First notice the parallelism in the colors: red is about a restraining power and purple is the revealing
The same parallel is seen in verse 3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Do you see this? Do you agree there is parallelism?
Now back to verses 6-8: HOW does Paul inform us will the man of sin be revealed "in his time?" Paul explains there is a restraining force restraining the revealing, so he cannot be revealed BEFORE his time? It should go without saying and without Paul spelling it out that GOD sets the timing. God wants His revealing at a certain time.
So Paul's answer to HOW is simple: the restraining force or power will be "taken out of the way" at the right time. Agreed?
My point is this: since in 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED, then in 3a somewhere there must be a restraining force "taken out of the way."
Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy [apostasia: departing"] comes first
Go ahead: search every word looking for anything that could possibly be the restraining force "taken out of the way."
Let no one no, does not fit
in any way deceive or entrap you no, does not fit.
that day will not come no, does not fit
apostasia: departing" this could fit!
The only word or phrase that I find could possibly be a restrainer "taken out of the way" is "apostasia" which in the first several English translations was translated as a "departing."
Could a "falling away" fit a restraining force? How could something evil restrain something evil and be taken out of the way AT THE RIGHT TIME so the revealing would happen in GOD's time? Sorry, it does not fit.
Now look at verse 6 again;
6 And now ye know what withholdeth
CSB
And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time.
CEB
Now you know what holds him back so that he can be revealed when his time comes.
CJB
And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time.
CEV
You already know what is holding this wicked one back until it is time for him to come.
DARBY
And now ye know that which restrains, that he should be revealed in his own time.
Paul wrote, "and now you know who or what is restraining....."
Why would Paul write that? The "now" is there in the Greek. NOW you know...just as if Paul had just TOLD US who the restrainer is. In fact, Paul did just tell us. Yet many still don't know because they don't understand this passage.
I have shown over and over that the first part of apostasia from strong's is apo and Strong's tells us it could mean a part of a whole group moved spatially to a different location. And the other half "stasia" meaning stationary or not moving. It is an absolute fact that the rapture will happen so fast the rest of the world will seem not moving.
Since Paul's theme for this passage is the gathering which really is a departing, I think this is Paul's real meaning. The Holy Spirit is the restraining force: HE knows the right timing. And He, working through the church to restrain, will be "taken out of the way" with the church. A moment after the rapture and the Holy Spirit will have no one on earth He can use.
To take the serpent by the tail here 
on your last point I agree those who John saw who were dressed in white which no man could number were martyrs .... I believe the whole end time church practically will be martyred.
Antichrist must be revealed but also he will have a career in opposing everything god so-called. He as supreme world leader will set out to destroy ALL religion ... this is the great end time persecution we are warned of, the great tribulation.
OK we'll call them virgins if that pleases you ... maidens have the same meaning.
Bro we's ALL unworthy, we are all told to watch and prays and we ALL slumbered and slept ... just as the disciples slumbered and slept in the garden.
My point is they are not the BRIDE, WE are the bride, we come with the Groom and we will not need to seek entrance into the wedding feast . I am not altering scripture I AM altering how it has been interpreted.
What Paul means when he says "cut off from Christ" is another huge, HUGE topic and needs a seperate debate. I don't believe anybody who is born again can be lost and I certainly do not believe anybody will be left behind at the rapture.
on your last point I agree those who John saw who were dressed in white which no man could number were martyrs .... I believe the whole end time church practically will be martyred.Antichrist must be revealed but also he will have a career in opposing everything god so-called. He as supreme world leader will set out to destroy ALL religion ... this is the great end time persecution we are warned of, the great tribulation.
OK we'll call them virgins if that pleases you ... maidens have the same meaning.
Bro we's ALL unworthy, we are all told to watch and prays and we ALL slumbered and slept ... just as the disciples slumbered and slept in the garden.
My point is they are not the BRIDE, WE are the bride, we come with the Groom and we will not need to seek entrance into the wedding feast . I am not altering scripture I AM altering how it has been interpreted.
What Paul means when he says "cut off from Christ" is another huge, HUGE topic and needs a seperate debate. I don't believe anybody who is born again can be lost and I certainly do not believe anybody will be left behind at the rapture.
These verses set the context for the first seals:
Rev 5:
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
2, An angel making a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals.
3. This search John watched ended in failure, "no man was found." WHY? Why at the time of this search, Jesus was NOT FOUND? WHY? This is showing us TIMING. At the time of this search Jesus had NOT YET RISEN from the dead to become worthy.
4. John knew the great importance of getting this book opened. But a search had just falied. TIME IS PASSING as John weeps.
5. SOMETHING CHANGED with the passing of time. Another search and this time JESUS IS FOUND WORTHY. So what happened? Jesus had just risen from the dead, PREVAILING over death.
6. Jesus suddenly appears in the throne room. Take careful note: Jesus was NOT SEEN in the throne room in chapter 4. Why? God was showing John TIME and TIMING: it was while Jesus was on the earth or under the earth.
Take a closer look: the Holy Spirit is there in chapter 4 but SENT DOWN in chapter 5.
God is showing us WHEN Jesus got the book and began opening the seals: AS SOON AS HE ASCENDED. Verse 6 shows us His ascension back to the throne room after sending Mary away.
Therefore, at the first seal, JOHN and the HOLY SPIRIT are at the time of Jesus ascension, while many who ignore the contest are 2000 years into the future. God is at the time of the early church, but those who ignore contest imaging the Antichrist Beast.
The first seal was opened around 32 AD and can ONLY represent the church and the gospel.
Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil trying to stop the church.
Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE.
Seal 6 starts God's wrath. The rapture will happen just before wrath.
Seal 7 is the official start of the 70th week.
The days of GT that Jesus spoke of will not start until late in chapter 14 after God's warnings.
Therefore, the great crowd too large to number is the JUST RAPTURED CHURCH. The "great" here is for the 2000 years of tribulation the church has lived through. It is NOT and cannot be any part of the 70th week because John has not yet started the week!
That is really beyond ignorant.
Invincible ignorance.
There is no uturn in the sky with the church never seeing heaven.
You made that up out of thin air.
Rediculous.
You have Jesus in rev 14 gathering ripe fruit DURING THE GT to where????
Where is Jesus taking those folks????
What is Jesus doing SITTING ON A CLOUD????
PLEASE... show us what exactly is going on in Rev 14 in the postrib workbook.
I have studied your doctrine. I can not find any postrib rapture teachers that go there.
Or any rapture verses for that matter.
Stop playing games and show us rev 14.
Invincible ignorance.
There is no uturn in the sky with the church never seeing heaven.
You made that up out of thin air.
Rediculous.
You have Jesus in rev 14 gathering ripe fruit DURING THE GT to where????
Where is Jesus taking those folks????
What is Jesus doing SITTING ON A CLOUD????
PLEASE... show us what exactly is going on in Rev 14 in the postrib workbook.
I have studied your doctrine. I can not find any postrib rapture teachers that go there.
Or any rapture verses for that matter.
Stop playing games and show us rev 14.
Thanks: I have been remiss: Readers: I should have expanded on this: what does Paul mean by the man of sin revealed? He is speaking of that moment the man of sin will enter the temple in Jerusalem and declare that he is GOD - the God of the Jews and the god of creation. This revealing is what stops the daily sacrifices according to Dan. 9:27 and will be the division point of the 70th week. In Revelation this division point will be marked by the 7th trumpet. Notice that a few verses after the 7th trumpet, those in Judea begin to flee, having just seen the abomination. (Rev 12:6)
It doesn't exist. If it did they would have jumped on it and showed it. Even I would have shown the verse because if it exists it's vitally important for this topic.
I'm of the belief that in the rapture "those who are alive and remain" will be changed at the last trump. They will be changed from flesh and blood mortals to incorruptible immortals. It occurs along with the resurrection at the return of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:50-55
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Where do all of these resurrected and saints and "changed" flesh and blood mortals go?
Well the state of the Earth will not be in good shape after the return of Christ. So there won't be an atmosphere either because the Earth will be literally burned up.
2 Peter 3:10-12
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Where the resurrected saints will go to is the new heavens and new earth where there is only righteousness. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God so by deductive reasoning the kingdom of God is entirely spiritual.
2 Peter 3:13
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
I'm of the belief that in the rapture "those who are alive and remain" will be changed at the last trump. They will be changed from flesh and blood mortals to incorruptible immortals. It occurs along with the resurrection at the return of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:50-55
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Where do all of these resurrected and saints and "changed" flesh and blood mortals go?
Well the state of the Earth will not be in good shape after the return of Christ. So there won't be an atmosphere either because the Earth will be literally burned up.
2 Peter 3:10-12
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Where the resurrected saints will go to is the new heavens and new earth where there is only righteousness. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God so by deductive reasoning the kingdom of God is entirely spiritual.
2 Peter 3:13
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
The first four verses of 2 Thess. 2 state that anti-Christ is revealed before the rapture, not after.
There is no proof to suggest the "restrainer taken out of the way" is the Holy Spirit. It just isn't plainly stated.
For example, if there is no holy Spirit on Earth during the great tribulation then where do the two witnesses get their power to do miracles?
Revelation 13:5-7 says there will be people on Earth who are born again (saints) during the great tribulation.
So how can a person be born again without the Holy Spirit present? They can't.
Matthew 25:1-13 (parable of the 10 virgins) states that if you miss the wedding there isn't a second chance for salvation.
What this presents for pre-tribbers is a major problem. If the rapture is pre-trib then there can't be saints in the great tribulation.
The only logical conclusion is the rapture is post-trib.
There is no proof to suggest the "restrainer taken out of the way" is the Holy Spirit. It just isn't plainly stated.
For example, if there is no holy Spirit on Earth during the great tribulation then where do the two witnesses get their power to do miracles?
Revelation 13:5-7 says there will be people on Earth who are born again (saints) during the great tribulation.
So how can a person be born again without the Holy Spirit present? They can't.
Matthew 25:1-13 (parable of the 10 virgins) states that if you miss the wedding there isn't a second chance for salvation.
What this presents for pre-tribbers is a major problem. If the rapture is pre-trib then there can't be saints in the great tribulation.
The only logical conclusion is the rapture is post-trib.