50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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I should know all these scriptures by heart. You KNOW the Holy Spirit dwells within you - right? And you also know He said He would never leave you. Case closed. When the church is raptured, the Holy Spirit dwelling within each one goes with them. But since the Holy Spirit is EVERYWHERE, after the church is gone, He is still here.
You know this too: the moment after the rapture He will not be in millions of doubters.
You know this too: the moment after the rapture He will not be in millions of doubters.
FreeGrace2 said:
I suppose you've asked all of them?
Hold it right there. This IS the problem. You have to split the Second Advent into 2 events. But there are only 2 advents of Christ.
The first one was as a baby to grow up as the "suffering servant" and dying on the cross for the sins of mankind.
The second one will be as King of kings, and Lord of lords, to rule the nations with an iron scepter.
As Jesus told the Sadducees; you are badly mistaken.
The first will be the rapture, where the Lord comes back for His own people—the church. This could happen at any time. [/QUOTE]
Again, where is a verse that tells us that Jesus will take raptured believers to heaven?
The other will be His second coming, where Jesus will physically and visibly return to the earth to establish His kingdom for His one thousand-year Millennial reign.[/QUOTE]
The obvious error in your speculation is that Rev 20:5 says that the tribulational martyrs will be in the FIRST resurrection. That totally knocks out your theory that there is a previous resurrection.
And we all know that Jesus resurrects the bodies of ALL dead saints just before He raptures and changes all living believers.
So you have a problem. Which you cannot explain.
NONE of these verses says that raptured believers are taken to heaven.
I am simply defending the faith of the Bible. Jesus has 2 Advents, not 3.
Acts 3:21 says Jesus must REMAIN in heaven until the restoration of all things. In fact, most translations say "heaven must receive Him" until the restoration of all things.
But the Greek word, from my lexicon, says "to receive and retain, to contain". So "remain" is what is being communicated.
Go to biblehub.com and see for yourself how many translations say "remain in heaven".
Again, only 2 Advents, not 3.
I suppose you've asked all of them?
Hold it right there. This IS the problem. You have to split the Second Advent into 2 events. But there are only 2 advents of Christ.
The first one was as a baby to grow up as the "suffering servant" and dying on the cross for the sins of mankind.
The second one will be as King of kings, and Lord of lords, to rule the nations with an iron scepter.
As Jesus told the Sadducees; you are badly mistaken.
The first will be the rapture, where the Lord comes back for His own people—the church. This could happen at any time. [/QUOTE]
Again, where is a verse that tells us that Jesus will take raptured believers to heaven?
The other will be His second coming, where Jesus will physically and visibly return to the earth to establish His kingdom for His one thousand-year Millennial reign.[/QUOTE]
The obvious error in your speculation is that Rev 20:5 says that the tribulational martyrs will be in the FIRST resurrection. That totally knocks out your theory that there is a previous resurrection.
And we all know that Jesus resurrects the bodies of ALL dead saints just before He raptures and changes all living believers.
So you have a problem. Which you cannot explain.
NONE of these verses says that raptured believers are taken to heaven.
I am simply defending the faith of the Bible. Jesus has 2 Advents, not 3.
Acts 3:21 says Jesus must REMAIN in heaven until the restoration of all things. In fact, most translations say "heaven must receive Him" until the restoration of all things.
But the Greek word, from my lexicon, says "to receive and retain, to contain". So "remain" is what is being communicated.
Go to biblehub.com and see for yourself how many translations say "remain in heaven".
Again, only 2 Advents, not 3.
I don't need to: John already did a good job with that.
Why fight it so hard? If you wish to be left behind, God has said He will give us the desires of our heart. If you desire to go through the time of God's wrath on earth here, be my guest! I won't try and stop you. Many of us though, are going to take God's escape plan and spend the 70th week in heaven so we will be there for the marriage! ;-) You can see your mansion after the 1000 years when the Holy City comes down.
Why fight it so hard? If you wish to be left behind, God has said He will give us the desires of our heart. If you desire to go through the time of God's wrath on earth here, be my guest! I won't try and stop you. Many of us though, are going to take God's escape plan and spend the 70th week in heaven so we will be there for the marriage! ;-) You can see your mansion after the 1000 years when the Holy City comes down.
FreeGrace2 said:
Prove it from Scripture, not your speculations.
I wasn't asking about how good your memory is. I am asking WHAT VERSES teach that raptured believers are taken to heaven.
Of course I permit you to find your study notes, read the Bible, do whatever you need to do to FIND THOSE VERSES.
And you think THIS proves your speculation? Why? of course all believers are indwell with the Holy Spirit. But Paul commands believers to NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit. How would I know if you aren't doing those very things?
You are still proving NOTHING about a pretrib rapture.
If He raptures me before the Trib, there will be nothing to doubt.
However, if the shoe is on the other foot, what will YOU be doubting?
You are SOOOOO convinced that your view is biblical, what happens to YOUR faith if you live to see the beginning of the trib?
Prove it from Scripture, not your speculations.
I wasn't asking about how good your memory is. I am asking WHAT VERSES teach that raptured believers are taken to heaven.
Of course I permit you to find your study notes, read the Bible, do whatever you need to do to FIND THOSE VERSES.
And you think THIS proves your speculation? Why? of course all believers are indwell with the Holy Spirit. But Paul commands believers to NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit. How would I know if you aren't doing those very things?
You are still proving NOTHING about a pretrib rapture.
If He raptures me before the Trib, there will be nothing to doubt.
However, if the shoe is on the other foot, what will YOU be doubting?
You are SOOOOO convinced that your view is biblical, what happens to YOUR faith if you live to see the beginning of the trib?
It sounds like you still don't understand.
You know that things must happen first before the return of Christ. Even pre-tribbers know there will be signs of the times as firmly established in scripture.
Matthew 24:3
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Learn the answer to the question because Jesus spends the rest of Matthew 24 describing the signs of His coming and the end of the world that comes after His coming. Once you learn these things you'll know what to watch for and how to not be deceived.
You know that things must happen first before the return of Christ. Even pre-tribbers know there will be signs of the times as firmly established in scripture.
Matthew 24:3
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Learn the answer to the question because Jesus spends the rest of Matthew 24 describing the signs of His coming and the end of the world that comes after His coming. Once you learn these things you'll know what to watch for and how to not be deceived.
FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, the ONLY WAY to correct your error is to PROVE that your claim about raptured believers are taken to heaven.
And that requires a verse that makes that clear. Note I am not asking for any specific words, but definitely specific teaching.
Can you do it?
Well, there you go again! I asked for a verse that makes clear that raptured believers are taken to heaven, and you punt with John's writing.
All you really needed to do was quote the specific verse where you think John taught that raptured believers are taken to heaven.
I've been reading through John MONTHLY for nearly 2 decades, along with the rest of the NT. So just quote the verse or verses, if there are more than one, where John made clear that raptured believers are taken to heaven.
So far, all you and others have done is show your construct.
I defend the truth. What is written in Scripture. If a claim cannot be found in Scripture, it isn't from God.
What a dumb thing to say. Who has ever even suggested they wished to miss being raptured? That is just crazy.
I desire to know God's Word correctly. And I begin with what IS written. Not with some construct by trying to cobble together verses from all over the Bible, NONE of which indicate that raptured people are taken to heaven.
As if you have a choice. Or I. Didn't you know that God is sovereign? Whenever the resurrection and rapture occurs, ALL believers, dead and alive, will participate.
You are free to speculate all you want. But IF you have miscalculated, what will be the state of your faith if you live to see the Trib?
Actually, the ONLY WAY to correct your error is to PROVE that your claim about raptured believers are taken to heaven.
And that requires a verse that makes that clear. Note I am not asking for any specific words, but definitely specific teaching.
Can you do it?
Well, there you go again! I asked for a verse that makes clear that raptured believers are taken to heaven, and you punt with John's writing.
All you really needed to do was quote the specific verse where you think John taught that raptured believers are taken to heaven.
I've been reading through John MONTHLY for nearly 2 decades, along with the rest of the NT. So just quote the verse or verses, if there are more than one, where John made clear that raptured believers are taken to heaven.
So far, all you and others have done is show your construct.
I defend the truth. What is written in Scripture. If a claim cannot be found in Scripture, it isn't from God.
What a dumb thing to say. Who has ever even suggested they wished to miss being raptured? That is just crazy.
I desire to know God's Word correctly. And I begin with what IS written. Not with some construct by trying to cobble together verses from all over the Bible, NONE of which indicate that raptured people are taken to heaven.
As if you have a choice. Or I. Didn't you know that God is sovereign? Whenever the resurrection and rapture occurs, ALL believers, dead and alive, will participate.
You are free to speculate all you want. But IF you have miscalculated, what will be the state of your faith if you live to see the Trib?
Well, now. This is quite sad. I have, but you seem unable to comprehend the verse.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
I've color coded it, to help you see the actual words and what they mean.
Red words refer to the Second coming of our Lord.
Blue words refer to the rapture.
Do you see the order here? Second advent FIRST, and THEN the rapture.
It could NOT be any more clear than that.
So you can STOP the claim that there aren't any posttrib rapture verses. If you don't, you will be guilty of LYING. Since you've now seen the truth.
Great. Would love to. So here goes:
Rev 20:4-5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Color coding, for clarity:
Red words refer to Tribulational martyrs. That means they were believers who died as martyrs during the Trib.
Blue words refer to their resurrection, which is called the FIRST resurrection.
You're going to have to really twist things around to get a resurrection BEFORE a FIRST resurrection.
But, thanks for asking.
This is dishonest. I've already quoted 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:4,5 before, a number of times.
A post trib rapture has been proven from these verses.
And you not only don't have any pretrib rapture verses that show that raptured believers are taken to heaven, you cannot explain how the resurrection mentioned in 1 Thess 4 is the first one when Rev 20:5 proves the first one is AFTER the Trib.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
I've color coded it, to help you see the actual words and what they mean.
Red words refer to the Second coming of our Lord.
Blue words refer to the rapture.
Do you see the order here? Second advent FIRST, and THEN the rapture.
It could NOT be any more clear than that.
So you can STOP the claim that there aren't any posttrib rapture verses. If you don't, you will be guilty of LYING. Since you've now seen the truth.
Great. Would love to. So here goes:
Rev 20:4-5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Color coding, for clarity:
Red words refer to Tribulational martyrs. That means they were believers who died as martyrs during the Trib.
Blue words refer to their resurrection, which is called the FIRST resurrection.
You're going to have to really twist things around to get a resurrection BEFORE a FIRST resurrection.
But, thanks for asking.
This is dishonest. I've already quoted 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:4,5 before, a number of times.
A post trib rapture has been proven from these verses.
And you not only don't have any pretrib rapture verses that show that raptured believers are taken to heaven, you cannot explain how the resurrection mentioned in 1 Thess 4 is the first one when Rev 20:5 proves the first one is AFTER the Trib.
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Again, where is a verse that tells us that Jesus will take raptured believers to heaven?
The other will be His second coming, where Jesus will physically and visibly return to the earth to establish His kingdom for His one thousand-year Millennial reign.[/QUOTE]
The obvious error in your speculation is that Rev 20:5 says that the tribulational martyrs will be in the FIRST resurrection. That totally knocks out your theory that there is a previous resurrection.
And we all know that Jesus resurrects the bodies of ALL dead saints just before He raptures and changes all living believers.
So you have a problem. Which you cannot explain.
NONE of these verses says that raptured believers are taken to heaven.
I am simply defending the faith of the Bible. Jesus has 2 Advents, not 3.
Acts 3:21 says Jesus must REMAIN in heaven until the restoration of all things. In fact, most translations say "heaven must receive Him" until the restoration of all things.
But the Greek word, from my lexicon, says "to receive and retain, to contain". So "remain" is what is being communicated.
Go to biblehub.com and see for yourself how many translations say "remain in heaven".
Again, only 2 Advents, not 3.[/QUOTE]
I have told at least twice before, that it is not a COMING until HIS FEED TOUCH THE GROUND. It is only an Appearing the First TIME to Call His Bride Out of her Old Dweing Place. Go ahead and DOUBT, you are headed down the wrong path.
The other will be His second coming, where Jesus will physically and visibly return to the earth to establish His kingdom for His one thousand-year Millennial reign.[/QUOTE]
The obvious error in your speculation is that Rev 20:5 says that the tribulational martyrs will be in the FIRST resurrection. That totally knocks out your theory that there is a previous resurrection.
And we all know that Jesus resurrects the bodies of ALL dead saints just before He raptures and changes all living believers.
So you have a problem. Which you cannot explain.
NONE of these verses says that raptured believers are taken to heaven.
I am simply defending the faith of the Bible. Jesus has 2 Advents, not 3.
Acts 3:21 says Jesus must REMAIN in heaven until the restoration of all things. In fact, most translations say "heaven must receive Him" until the restoration of all things.
But the Greek word, from my lexicon, says "to receive and retain, to contain". So "remain" is what is being communicated.
Go to biblehub.com and see for yourself how many translations say "remain in heaven".
Again, only 2 Advents, not 3.[/QUOTE]
I have told at least twice before, that it is not a COMING until HIS FEED TOUCH THE GROUND. It is only an Appearing the First TIME to Call His Bride Out of her Old Dweing Place. Go ahead and DOUBT, you are headed down the wrong path.
Artificial "requirement" [ ^ yours] stated NOWHERE in Scripture.
CONTEXT determines "where" and "in whose presence" He [HIS "presence/parousia"] will be.
I've already pointed out, that when WE go "to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR," NO ONE ELSE is involved.
[most passages speaking of the Rapture point in time, or related, use the phrase "OUR Lord Jesus Christ / OUR Lord Jesus," for example (the "world" is not being referenced / included, in these "Rapture"-related/and related contexts)]
And THAT ^ is distinct from the time of His "OPENLY MANIFEST / MANIFESTATION" when EVERY EYE shall see Him.
Just as in the events we commonly call His First Advent, shows TWO distinct "COMES"... one as a baby at Bethlehem; the other unto Jerusalem at the conclusion of the "69 Weeks" total, on Palm Sunday (commonly called His Triumphal Entry)... which point I'd made in the following few posts:
What we commonly call His FIRST ADVENT had two "comes"... (shown to be DISTINCT, by grasping their CONTEXTS):
Post #308 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4533043
Post #47 [scroll down] - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4530073
... and Post #1812 in the "Less well-known Rapture verses..." thread (addressing you in that post)
Yet no passage STATES "SECOND advent" (regarding that event), as you keep insisting.
I realize that ppl cannot fathom that "no one else" will be involved in the point-in-time (and location) concerning "our Rapture," fancying to themselves that "surely the entire world will HEAR 'the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL' and the 'TRUMP OF GOD'" (or the "voice" of the trumpet, for that matter)... but they forget that in Acts 22:9, Paul had said, "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
[I've mentioned the studies showing Paul to be a "TYPE" of the future "144,000"]
So, yes, there is surely precedent in Scripture... and "how" I believe it will take place at the time of "our Rapture," that NO ONE ELSE will be "involved" (i.e. "HEAR" anything whatsoever! And this is part of WHY the 2Th2:10-12 thing will be enabled to be put into play, at that time! [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])
CONTEXT determines "where" and "in whose presence" He [HIS "presence/parousia"] will be.
I've already pointed out, that when WE go "to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR," NO ONE ELSE is involved.
[most passages speaking of the Rapture point in time, or related, use the phrase "OUR Lord Jesus Christ / OUR Lord Jesus," for example (the "world" is not being referenced / included, in these "Rapture"-related/and related contexts)]
And THAT ^ is distinct from the time of His "OPENLY MANIFEST / MANIFESTATION" when EVERY EYE shall see Him.
Just as in the events we commonly call His First Advent, shows TWO distinct "COMES"... one as a baby at Bethlehem; the other unto Jerusalem at the conclusion of the "69 Weeks" total, on Palm Sunday (commonly called His Triumphal Entry)... which point I'd made in the following few posts:
What we commonly call His FIRST ADVENT had two "comes"... (shown to be DISTINCT, by grasping their CONTEXTS):
Post #308 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4533043
Post #47 [scroll down] - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4530073
... and Post #1812 in the "Less well-known Rapture verses..." thread (addressing you in that post)
Yet no passage STATES "SECOND advent" (regarding that event), as you keep insisting.
I realize that ppl cannot fathom that "no one else" will be involved in the point-in-time (and location) concerning "our Rapture," fancying to themselves that "surely the entire world will HEAR 'the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL' and the 'TRUMP OF GOD'" (or the "voice" of the trumpet, for that matter)... but they forget that in Acts 22:9, Paul had said, "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
[I've mentioned the studies showing Paul to be a "TYPE" of the future "144,000"]
So, yes, there is surely precedent in Scripture... and "how" I believe it will take place at the time of "our Rapture," that NO ONE ELSE will be "involved" (i.e. "HEAR" anything whatsoever! And this is part of WHY the 2Th2:10-12 thing will be enabled to be put into play, at that time! [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])
The first resurrection occurs when Christ comes (1 Corinthians 15:23). Tribulation saints are included in the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-5). You'll conclude that Jesus returns after the great tribulation from this because the Bible says so. It's very plain.
The rapture and first resurrection are after the great tribulation.
The rapture and first resurrection are after the great tribulation.
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Artificial "requirement" [ ^ yours] stated NOWHERE in Scripture.
CONTEXT determines "where" and "in whose presence" He [HIS "presence/parousia"] will be.
I've already pointed out, that when WE go "to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR," NO ONE ELSE is involved.
[most passages speaking of the Rapture point in time, or related, use the phrase "OUR Lord Jesus Christ / OUR Lord Jesus," for example (the "world" is not being referenced / included, in these "Rapture"-related/and related contexts)]
And THAT ^ is distinct from the time of His "OPENLY MANIFEST / MANIFESTATION" when EVERY EYE shall see Him.
Just as in the events we commonly call His First Advent, shows TWO distinct "COMES"... one as a baby at Bethlehem; the other unto Jerusalem at the conclusion of the "69 Weeks" total, on Palm Sunday (commonly called His Triumphal Entry)... which point I'd made in the following few posts:
What we commonly call His FIRST ADVENT had two "comes"... (shown to be DISTINCT, by grasping their CONTEXTS):
Post #308 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4533043
Post #47 [scroll down] - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4530073
... and Post #1812 in the "Less well-known Rapture verses..." thread (addressing you in that post)
Yet no passage STATES "SECOND advent" (regarding that event), as you keep insisting.
I realize that ppl cannot fathom that "no one else" will be involved in the point-in-time (and location) concerning "our Rapture," fancying to themselves that "surely the entire world will HEAR 'the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL' and the 'TRUMP OF GOD'" (or the "voice" of the trumpet, for that matter)... but they forget that in Acts 22:9, Paul had said, "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
[I've mentioned the studies showing Paul to be a "TYPE" of the future "144,000"]
So, yes, there is surely precedent in Scripture... and "how" I believe it will take place at the time of "our Rapture," that NO ONE ELSE will be "involved" (i.e. "HEAR" anything whatsoever! And this is part of WHY the 2Th2:10-12 thing will be enabled to be put into play, at that time! [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])
CONTEXT determines "where" and "in whose presence" He [HIS "presence/parousia"] will be.
I've already pointed out, that when WE go "to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR," NO ONE ELSE is involved.
[most passages speaking of the Rapture point in time, or related, use the phrase "OUR Lord Jesus Christ / OUR Lord Jesus," for example (the "world" is not being referenced / included, in these "Rapture"-related/and related contexts)]
And THAT ^ is distinct from the time of His "OPENLY MANIFEST / MANIFESTATION" when EVERY EYE shall see Him.
Just as in the events we commonly call His First Advent, shows TWO distinct "COMES"... one as a baby at Bethlehem; the other unto Jerusalem at the conclusion of the "69 Weeks" total, on Palm Sunday (commonly called His Triumphal Entry)... which point I'd made in the following few posts:
What we commonly call His FIRST ADVENT had two "comes"... (shown to be DISTINCT, by grasping their CONTEXTS):
Post #308 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4533043
Post #47 [scroll down] - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4530073
... and Post #1812 in the "Less well-known Rapture verses..." thread (addressing you in that post)
Yet no passage STATES "SECOND advent" (regarding that event), as you keep insisting.
I realize that ppl cannot fathom that "no one else" will be involved in the point-in-time (and location) concerning "our Rapture," fancying to themselves that "surely the entire world will HEAR 'the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL' and the 'TRUMP OF GOD'" (or the "voice" of the trumpet, for that matter)... but they forget that in Acts 22:9, Paul had said, "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
[I've mentioned the studies showing Paul to be a "TYPE" of the future "144,000"]
So, yes, there is surely precedent in Scripture... and "how" I believe it will take place at the time of "our Rapture," that NO ONE ELSE will be "involved" (i.e. "HEAR" anything whatsoever! And this is part of WHY the 2Th2:10-12 thing will be enabled to be put into play, at that time! [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])
2 Thess 2:1 shows that the Second advent precedes the gathering (rapture).
This exactly parallels Matt 24-
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Red words refer to the Second coming of Christ.
Blue words refer to the gathering, same as 2 Thess 2:1. And same order.
And Rev 20:4,5 specifically says the Trib martyrs will be in the FIRST resurrection.
So please explain how there can be a resurrection of believers BEFORE the FIRST one.