Not By Works

[posthuman]

That's fine for the saints...can unconverted sinners partake of agape while carnally minded?

1 John 4:7 equates agape and agapao here in a single verse, completely destroying your false argument over the words.
in Luke 6:32 Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, explicitly states that sinners have this love.

we're done. the lengths you were trying to go to to try & make Matthew 24 mean that God forsakes His own children are completely refuted.

feel free to pick a new attack strategy -- tho i really think you need to do your John 21 homework first.

 

[posthuman]

I never said OSAS folks doubt God's faithfulness...I said they are deceived by a false doctrine. So, no, it's nothing like that.

you're confused.
we do not doubt that God is faithful to save us.
you keep telling us He is, and that we must save ourselves.

'OSAS' is a falsely defined strawman. it's not an accurate term to use and doesn't apply to anyone here. it presupposes a fake conversion comprised of nothing but self-imposed outward behavioral modification, having nothing to do with the actual supernatural power of God which saves and works in real believers.
you should drop it.

 

[Magenta]

you're confused.
we do not doubt that God is faithful to save us.
you keep telling us He is, and that we must save ourselves.

'OSAS' is a falsely defined strawman. it's not an accurate term to use and doesn't apply to anyone here. it presupposes a fake conversion that has nothing to do with the actual supernatural power of God which saves and works in real believers.
you should drop it.

Him dropping it would mean he would have to give up his blasphemy...

Whereas he seems quite attached to it.

He would also have to admit he was wrong

 

[Phoneman-777]

Sounds familiar to me. I can relate to that from other forums, you mention words such as "law" and "obey" and soon you have a bunch of "lovey-doveys" throwing rocks at you. So much for that "tolerance and understanding" they like to talk about.

Anyways, serious discussions are edifying whilst pie throwing just get draining. Not really useful to anyone reading it. The former is very rare here.

Yep, say the wrong thing and these seemingly nice, sweet, loving folks sprout horns, fangs, and claws LOL

I don't care, I love 'em just the same.

 

[CherieR]

Yep, say the wrong thing and these seemingly nice, sweet, loving folks sprout horns, fangs, and claws LOL

I don't care, I love 'em just the same.

I think we all have our hot headed moments...

 

[Phoneman-777]

you're confused.
we do not doubt that God is faithful to save us.
you keep telling us He is, and that we must save ourselves.

'OSAS' is a falsely defined strawman. it's not an accurate term to use and doesn't apply to anyone here. it presupposes a fake conversion comprised of nothing but self-imposed outward behavioral modification, having nothing to do with the actual supernatural power of God which saves and works in real believers.
you should drop it.

Really? Someone must've hacked my account LOL

OSAS says saints who commit iniquity will escape the same punishment which sinners will suffer for doing the same, does it not? Yes, it does.

In the real world, we call that a License, a Permit, an Authorization. But, I guess in the world of OSAS, it's defined as "grace", right? Grace to keep on doing that which made necessary the death of our Savior on the Cross in the first place...not buying it.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I think just my own opinion that we should believe the truth and work it out for ourselves between God and us if we believe that we are going to be held accountable whether for good or bad we do , it’s going to lead to a better and more repentant and vigilant life with far less temptations and obstacles and pitfalls

I believe salvation is personal so we should let the lord do his work in a believing heart when we accept things like the truth of eternal judgement and the law of liberty that saves repentance sinners

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:10, 12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

with Christ we have mercy but he does require our faith

 

[posthuman]

OSAS says saints who commit iniquity will escape the same punishment which sinners will suffer for doing the same, does it not? Yes, it does.

are sins forgiven in Christ, yes or no?
such a simple question, that you are so afraid to answer.

salvation is by grace through faith, apart from works.
this is doctrine. this is the doctrine you are in here daily fighting against, telling us that salvation is by our works, apart from faith.
we all see that.

no one here is saying they desire to go on sinning. no one here is trying to excuse sin. no one here is trying to serve both God and Molech.
but we are confessing our sin and trusting God, whose power is made perfect in our weakness. we are putting no confidence in our flesh while you are telling us our own willpower and efforts must earn for us an outward righteousness in order to be approved before Him. we are putting our hope and faith in Him who is able to renew and strengthen us.


once again, 'OSAS' is a false strawman describing a fake conversion consisting of nothing more than completely-human-originated self-imposed outward behavioral modification, denying the power and work of God in those He redeems.
you should drop it. it does not represent the truth and it does not represent the belief of anyone here.

 

[posthuman]

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:10, 12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

with Christ we have mercy but he does require our faith

yes! we must show mercy in the same way we received mercy -- showing it to those who have done no works to deserve it.
i can't do that unless He transforms my heart; all my hope is in Him and none of it in myself; all glory is His and none of it mine.

 

[Phoneman-777]

1 John 4:7 equates agape and agapao here in a single verse, completely destroying your false argument over the words.
in Luke 6:32 Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, explicitly states that sinners have this love.

we're done. the lengths you were trying to go to to try & make Matthew 24 mean that God forsakes His own children are completely refuted.

feel free to pick a new attack strategy -- tho i really think you need to do your John 21 homework first.

It destroys nothing.
"Agapao" has several meanings which have nothing to do with "unconditional love" such as "to prefer".
"Agape" means only one thing: "unconditional love of God".

Your premise is flawed from the start and it's conclusion is as ludicrous as the means by which you attempt to prove it. Good gravy, man, you are claiming sinners can partake of unconditional, Godly love! It's almost embarrassing.

Now, if you want to prove that the "many" in Matthew 24:12 KJV are "sinners", then stop with your false equivalences and find us just one true equivalence: Find just one passage - just one - where sinners are described as possessing "agape" - the noun, not the verb form of it whose definitions differ in degree and intensity.

 

[VCO]

So after the 2nd coming, even though we have free choice, we will always end up choosing not to sin.

Is that what you are saying?

Don't you know THAT ? ? ? After the Rapture, we will be in our Glorified Body, and we cannot even THINK SIN.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

yes! we must show mercy in the same way we received mercy -- showing it to those who have done no works to deserve it.
i can't do that unless He transforms my heart; all my hope is in Him and none of it in myself; all glory is His and none of it mine.

amen that’s why we must accept and believe the gospel the change that faith produces in our very core our heart and conscience

in the end brother we won’t be singing glory to each of us but our song one of the angels about the throne like the lyrics in your words

“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:9-12‬ ‭

all glory to God for giving us a sure hope in the world

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/mrk.16.15-16.kjv

our hearts cry of glory to the lamb who was slain is produced by the simplicity of the gospel and believing and saves our everlasting soul but we have to believe that’s our only part it’s not a work that brings us glory but an acknowledgement of his glory in and for us

but the fruit needs to be his fruit

 

[Phoneman-777]

are sins forgiven in Christ, yes or no?
such a simple question, that you are so afraid to answer.

The Just Man's sins are - is there forgiveness for the impenitent Presumptuous Man?

salvation is by grace through faith, apart from works.
this is doctrine.

Amen

this is the doctrine you are in here daily fighting against, telling us that salvation is by our works, apart from faith. we all see that.

My fight is not with Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV....it's with those who deny verse 10...those who argue God's commandments are too grievous by their constant, incessant whining, "we can't keep the law" when Paul says in Hebrews 12 if you haven't fought the good fight of faith to the point that blood mingles with your sweat, then you're full of bulldookey.

no one here is saying they desire to go on sinning. no one here is trying to excuse sin.

Then why do you need a OSAS License to Sin? Does the groom stand at the altar thinking about OSAS-type exit strategies if he falls into adultery? Not if he truly loves his bride.

no one here is trying to serve both God and Molech. but we are confessing our sin and trusting God, whose power is made perfect in our weakness. we are putting no confidence in our flesh

If you've recognized your weakness and see there is no confidence in your flesh, good. Now, put down your OSAS License to Sin, put on the Armor of God, get into the fight, and fight the good fight of faith in His strength - a fight in which victory is guaranteed, right? It's high time Christians stop calling themselves "more than conquerors" while getting their butts handed to them every time Satan comes around with his temptations.

"Yield not to temptation,​

for yielding is sin.​

Each vict'ry will help you,​

some other to win.​

Fight manfully onward,​

dark passions subdue.​

Look ever to Jesus,​

He will carry your through."​

​

while you are telling us our own willpower and efforts must earn for us an outward righteousness in order to be approved before Him. we are putting our hope and faith in Him who is able to renew and strengthen us.

You just keep making it up as you go, don't you? Works earn nothing, according to Jesus' own words in Luke 17:10 KJV. As for willpower, Christians need to start exercising some "won'tpower". They need to "flee fornication" instead of weakly crawling away from it, hoping it catches up to them, right or wrong?

once again, 'OSAS' is a false strawman describing a fake conversion consisting of nothing more than completely-human-originated self-imposed outward behavioral modification, denying the power and work of God in those He redeems. you should drop it. it does not represent the truth and it does not represent the belief of anyone here.

If you understood the Scriptures or the power of God, you'd know that there is no such thing as "behavior modification" apart from the indwelling Christ, according to Romans 8:7 KJV where it says the carnal mind can't keep God's commandments even if it wanted to.

 

[CherieR]

In zeal let us remember to love.

As Jesus says in Matthew 7:12 NIV:” So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Just Man's sins are - is there forgiveness for the impenitent Presumptuous Man?
Amen
My fight is not with Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV....it's with those who deny verse 10...those who argue God's commandments are too grievous by their constant, incessant whining, "we can't keep the law" when Paul says in Hebrews 12 if you haven't fought the good fight of faith to the point that blood mingles with your sweat, then you're full of bulldookey.
Then why do you need a OSAS License to Sin? Does the groom stand at the altar thinking about OSAS-type exit strategies if he falls into adultery? Not if he truly loves his bride.
If you've recognized your weakness and see there is no confidence in your flesh, good. Now, put down your OSAS License to Sin, put on the Armor of God, get into the fight, and fight the good fight of faith in His strength - a fight in which victory is guaranteed, right? It's high time Christians stop calling themselves "more than conquerors" while getting their butts handed to them every time Satan comes around with his temptations.

"Yield not to temptation,​

for yielding is sin.​

Each vict'ry will help you,​

some other to win.​

Fight manfully onward,​

dark passions subdue.​

Look ever to Jesus,​

He will carry your through."​

​

You just keep making it up as you go, don't you? Works earn nothing, according to Jesus' own words in Luke 17:10 KJV. As for willpower, Christians need to start exercising some "won'tpower". They need to "flee fornication" instead of weakly crawling away from it, hoping it catches up to them, right or wrong?
If you understood the Scriptures or the power of God, you'd know that there is no such thing as "behavior modification" apart from the indwelling Christ, according to Romans 8:7 KJV where it says the carnal mind can't keep God's commandments even if it wanted to.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to learn to see things anew by accepting the knowledge of Christ

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19-20‬ ‭

it changes us into his image from glory to glory

“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV

“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭


“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:14, 63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and from faith to faith we are Made righteous

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We can’t grasp the entirety of the gospel in the beginning because like you are saying there were not able to keep it all in the beginning and it would condemn us . So it’s revealed by hearing of faith as we grow and persevere

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a time when we’re born , and infants and toddlers when we aren’t yet educated in doscernement and aren’t accountable for the thkngs of an adult but we grow from faith to faith into his image



‬‬

 

[Guojing]

Don't you know THAT ? ? ? After the Rapture, we will be in our Glorified Body, and we cannot even THINK SIN.

So you also agree we will be impeccable, we cannot sin?

 

[throughfaith]

Do
Notice how submissive they are - no pecking at her, no arguing about the direction they’re headed, no expectation of safety if they climb off and go there own way.

It’s almost like they know they have to ABIDE in her if they are to get to their destination....

“The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib” ...but Christians??? 😉

Yes if a ' physical baby Duckling doesn't abide with their mummy duck he will lose his mummy or get killed by a predator, What does that have to do with new testament salvation?

 

[throughfaith]

Do
Notice how submissive they are - no pecking at her, no arguing about the direction they’re headed, no expectation of safety if they climb off and go there own way.

It’s almost like they know they have to ABIDE in her if they are to get to their destination....

“The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib” ...but Christians??? 😉

We are not physically walking around with Jesus. We cannot go anywhere where he doesn't abide in us . A mother duck does not indwel the ducklings . Nor are they Justifed ,have imputed righteousness and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit . There are many things that happen ,including our spirit is redeemed and we are predestined to the adoption rom 8.23 . None of these things happen to ducklings. Your duck analogy only really works with Religions such as Jehovah witnesses ect ,where its just a physical observation and following practices and rules ect .

 

[Phoneman-777]

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to learn to see things anew by accepting the knowledge of Christ

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19-20‬ ‭

it changes us into his image from glory to glory

“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV

“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭


“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:14, 63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and from faith to faith we are Made righteous

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We can’t grasp the entirety of the gospel in the beginning because like you are saying there were not able to keep it all in the beginning and it would condemn us . So it’s revealed by hearing of faith as we grow and persevere

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a time when we’re born , and infants and toddlers when we aren’t yet educated in doscernement and aren’t accountable for the thkngs of an adult but we grow from faith to faith into his image



‬‬

Yes, growth, not backsliding

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, growth, not backsliding

indeed never sinless perfection , but always looking up toward the goal and pressing on . When we stumble and we surely do from time to time we have grace and forgiveness through repentance and faith .

we have the lord with us willing to forgive and heal us pick us up and dust us off . We just have to get the perfect mindset and Christ power does the rest

“Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:

for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law,

but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:

but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3:8-9, 12-15‬ ‭

In my own thought it’s about the pursuit of Christ because we truly believe the gospel.

I often wonder how people get the doctrine they do from Paul’s writing he was very clear but he never spoke in a verse or two always it was a paragraph and chapter and a point from another of his letters being explained

I can see how if someone just insisted nothing applies but the verses they choose it could be deceptive but if we believe the gospel in the Bible it’s always going to be the truth

what I find is God teaching anyone who is willing to believe him , how to be saved and escape the second death to come.

often people insist they are already saved without question , but Paul never thought that way yet they get it from small Controlled portions of his words

Paul was along the lines of waiting for Christ to make everyone’s judgement even saying he didn’t know about himself and whether he would be found innocent just because he himself didn’t know of anything he was waiting until Christ judged him

“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness,

and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts:

and then shall every man have praise of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel in the world has been altered terribly by false doctrine to the point they teach that his words no longer apply to salvation because he teaches us what to actually do to be saved