Not By Works

[VCO]

It's funny how you keep referring to my Scripturally sound spiritual propositions as "lies" - speaks volumes about your estimation of the Word.

No matter how much you try to set it down and clean it up and dress it up so it can go to church, OSAS is nothing more than a false "License to Sin" doctrine which claims we may by dead faith obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

Please read all of your Bible, not just the passages that appeal to your carnally minded interpretations.

No, they really are lying about what OSAS Churches teach and believe. And you really are blind to the truth, probably because you are wilfully blind, and do not ever really read any of our Posts. So be it.

 

[Phoneman-777]

do you believe in forgiveness of sin, or do you not believe in forgiveness of sin?

is that an uncomfortable question? why?

Do you believe "abide in the Vine" means the Christian must be continuously unconditionally surrendered to Jesus, or can he take time off to "abide with the Satan Holly tree"?

As in the case of a husband and wife who each fully surrender their will to the other, does the idea of fully surrendering your will to Jesus make you uncomfortable? Why, if "His commandments are not grievous"?

 

[Phoneman-777]

why is it so hard for you to confess that Christ died to forgive sin?

Why do I not hear you rejoicing that you are fully surrendered to Jesus and are laying aside habitual, known sin as the Holy Spirit reveals it to you as you walk day by day with the Lord?

 

[posthuman]

Why do I not hear you rejoicing that you are fully surrendered to Jesus and are laying aside habitual, known sin as the Holy Spirit reveals it to you as you walk day by day with the Lord?

because you don't read any post with more than 50 words in it.

as you said.

 

[VCO]

why is it so hard for you to confess that Christ died to forgive sin?

Okay, I give up trying to reach that guy. I sure do not want to be in his shoes.

 

[Phoneman-777]

So are you saying, saints will have the free will to choose to rebel after the 2nd coming, some of them might and if they do, they will also join Satan and his rebellion?

Perhaps you missed my earlier answer: Before the Second Coming, Jesus will close His Heavenly Sanctuary ministry of Intercession with "let him who is unjust be unjust still...let him who is holy be still" -- at this point, there will be no more switching sides ever.

Then, He will change out of His High Priestly robes and don His Kingly apparel and then make the journey back to Earth aka the Second Coming for His bride (no secret rapture 7 years earlier).

 

[Guojing]

Perhaps you missed my earlier answer: Before the Second Coming, Jesus will close His Heavenly Sanctuary ministry of Intercession with "let him who is unjust be unjust still...whoever is holy, let him be holy still", after which there will be no switching sides ever, because the wicked will be destroyed and the righteous will from that moment forward ever choose righteousness.

So when you say "ever choose righteousness", you are also saying they cannot chose otherwise correct?

 

[CherieR]

I'm certain there are many OSAS believers who are surrendered to Christ and would sooner die rather than commit deliberate, habitual, known sin aka iniquity...my fight is not with them.

It's with those who claim "we can't keep the law" and thus rely on their OSAS License to Sin while reading with both eyes open where Paul says in Hebrews 12 if we've yet to paint the ground red with bloody sweat in our fight against temptation, as did our Lord in Gethsemane, we need to sit down and shut up.

In a way, everyone commits habitual sin because people sin everyday in some way, shape or form. It doesn’t have to be very obvious, could be as simple as not doing something to one ought to or an attitude of the heart. One may do wrong and not be apparent to the individual.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Okay, I give up trying to reach that guy. I sure do not want to be in his shoes.

No you won't, my friend. You keep coming back because you're in a spiritual battle and your sincere heart won't allow you to let it drop. Please keep reasoning and praying. I assure you there is NO DANGER in a knowledge that we may walk away from God at any time and miss heaven if pick up our cross daily and follow Jesus fully surrendered. The only danger is trusting in a false doctrine that traps us in false security.

 

[JBTN]

Unlike many of my opponents who cling to "proof texts" while ignoring mine and stubbornly refuse any attempts at textual harmony because anything less than their rigid interpretations totally undermines them, I always seek textual harmony without fear of the same.

But, before I address 1 John 3:6 KJV, please consider one of many examples that can be given to overthrow OSAS:

Matthew 24:12-13 KJV:​

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love (agape) of many shall wax cold, but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."​

​

No one is going to argue that the unrighteous are partakers of "agape", which means these "many" who through the practice of iniquity kill their agape cold and dead, fail to endure to the end, and end up not saved....are saints.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, regarding the "known" of 1 John 3:6 KJV:
If we compare this verse with 1 John 2:3 KJV where "know" is used twice, in the Greek it is two different verb tenses and to convey the distinction, the clause may be rendered, "We are knowing that we have come to know and still know". So, when John says, "Neither known Him", doesn't necessarily mean "ever known" but can easily mean "has not known since lapsing into rebellion".

If we rigidly interpret 1 John 3:6 KJV "neither known Him" as "never known Him at all", then we introduce textual disharmony - we cause a contradiction with 1 John 2:3 KJV, as well as with several other passages that clearly depict saints falling back into a state which is "worse than the beginning" of them. What say you?

“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/mat.24.9-13.kjv

I don’t understand how this overthrows OSAS. The Christians won’t be the ones guilty of iniquity here. Remember 1 John 2:4.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/1jn.2.4.kjv

”The love of many shall wax cold”. We are commanded to love one another. 1 John 3:23. Again, remember 1 John 2:4. Are Christians part of the many. I would say no, they are part of those who resist this temptation and endure to the end.
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/1jn.2.3.kjv

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/1jn.3.6.kjv

I don’t understand the textual disharmony you mentioned here.
What are your thoughts on Matthew 7:23?

“And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/mat.7.23.kjv

Think back to Matthew 24:12-13 that we discussed above. Jesus clearly tells us here that those who work iniquity are not saved and never were.

 

[Phoneman-777]

So when you say "ever choose righteousness", you are also saying they cannot chose otherwise correct?

Doesn't the concept of "choice" demand two different options? (unless we're talking politics, in which "choice" is only an illusion since boththe left and right candidates are preselected by the Luciferians who run the world LOL)

 

[Phoneman-777]

“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/mat.24.9-13.kjv

I don’t understand how this overthrows OSAS. The Christians won’t be the ones guilty of iniquity here. Remember 1 John 2:4.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/1jn.2.4.kjv

”The love of many shall wax cold”. We are commanded to love one another. 1 John 3:23. Again, remember 1 John 2:4. Are Christians part of the many. I would say no, they are part of those who resist this temptation and endure to the end.
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/1jn.2.3.kjv

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/1jn.3.6.kjv

I don’t understand the textual disharmony you mentioned here.
What are your thoughts on Matthew 7:23?

“And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/mat.7.23.kjv

Think back to Matthew 24:12-13 that we discussed above. Jesus clearly tells us here that those who work iniquity are not saved and never were.

I thought I was clear, but I'll repeat:

In Matthew 24:12 KJV, the "many" are recipients of "agape" love of God. No one is going to argue that these recipients are unconverted sinners - they are the saints, for only saints partake of "agape" love, right or wrong?

Therefore, these "many" are saints who, through the practice of iniquity, kill their agape cold and dead, fail to endure to the end, and are not saved in the end.

 

[posthuman]

Doesn't the concept of "choice" demand two different options? (unless we're talking politics, in which "choice" is only an illusion since boththe left and right candidates are preselected by the Luciferians who run the world LOL)

but you didn't answer his question, and it's an excellent question:

in the resurrection will we saints be able to choose sin?
why or why not?

 

[Phoneman-777]

because you don't read any post with more than 50 words in it.

as you said.

I'm know I'm Southern and a bit slow...but 50 words I can handle

 

[JBTN]

I thought I was clear, but I'll repeat:

In Matthew 24:12 KJV, the "many" are recipients of "agape" love of God. No one is going to argue that these recipients are unconverted sinners - they are the saints, for only saints partake of "agape" love, right or wrong?

Therefore, these "many" are saints who, through the practice of iniquity, kill their agape cold and dead, fail to endure to the end, and are not saved in the end.

Matthew 7:23

“And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/mat.7.23.kjv

Those who work iniquity are not saints and never knew Christ.

 

[posthuman]

I'm know I'm Southern and a bit slow...but 50 words I can handle

how about 6 and a half minutes?

listen to this, it's accurate:

la CA Vrei (Take What You Want)​

​

I’ve been wrong more than I’ve been right​

Fooling myself painted with pride​

Angels of death darkness and light​

Kissing my forehead​

Beautifully tasted their dreams - sown shut my eyes​

​

What do you want from me?​

​

Mongrels and goats​

They were the golden hooks in my nose​

Fall on my knees Lift up my face​

No longer deny Wonderful grace​

You make me cry - with one drop of blood​

​

What do you want from me?​

​

You took my hate​

replaced it with love​

You took the coal that healed my tongue​

You took my death​

replaced it with life​

You drove out the horrors that possessed my mind​

You showed me peace​

when I had none​

Shown me forgiveness​

forgot what I’d done​

You gave me the sky​

You gave me the sea​

​

Take what You want from me
​

it's because i know what he did that i know nothing can snatch me from His hand.
it's because i am utterly in love that i cling to Him. not because i'm afraid and have no trust in Him.
He's not a terror to me; He's a Saviour; He is my Husband.

 

[Phoneman-777]

In a way, everyone commits habitual sin because people sin everyday in some way, shape or form. It doesn’t have to be very obvious, could be as simple as not doing something to one ought to or an attitude of the heart. One may do wrong and not be apparent to the individual.

You're referring to unconscious habitual sin...like when an unskilled archer who doesn't pay attention in class is told to go out and take the shot and misses terribly...but eventually he is able to do it. There's plenty of mercy for him.

I'm talking about the best student in the class who turns completely around in the wrong direction and deliberately shoots his arrow away from the target.

 

[CherieR]

how about 6 and a half minutes?

listen to this, it's accurate:

la CA Vrei (Take What You Want)​

​

I’ve been wrong more than I’ve been right​

Fooling myself painted with pride​

Angels of death darkness and light​

Kissing my forehead​

Beautifully tasted their dreams - sown shut my eyes​

​

What do you want from me?​

​

Mongrels and goats​

They were the golden hooks in my nose​

Fall on my knees Lift up my face​

No longer deny Wonderful grace​

You make me cry - with one drop of blood​

​

What do you want from me?​

​

You took my hate​

replaced it with love​

You took the coal that healed my tongue​

You took my death​

replaced it with life​

You drove out the horrors that possessed my mind​

You showed me peace​

when I had none​

Shown me forgiveness​

forgot what I’d done​

You gave me the sky​

You gave me the sea​

​

Take what You want from me​

​

it's because i know what he did that i know nothing can snatch me from His hand.
it's because i am utterly in love that i cling to Him. not because i'm afraid and have no trust in Him.
He's not a terror to me; He's a Saviour; He is my Husband.

This part of your post that I made the color red is beautiful words.

 

[CherieR]

You're referring to unconscious habitual sin...like when an unskilled archer who doesn't pay attention in class is told to go out and take the shot and misses terribly...but eventually he is able to do it. There's plenty of mercy for him.

I'm talking about the best student in the class who turns completely around in the wrong direction and deliberately shoots his arrow away from the target.

In my view, much of sin is deliberate and known though some can be unconscious. I think in the majority of cases, sin is known.

 

[Guojing]

Doesn't the concept of "choice" demand two different options? (unless we're talking politics, in which "choice" is only an illusion since boththe left and right candidates are preselected by the Luciferians who run the world LOL)

So after the 2nd coming, even though we have free choice, we will always end up choosing not to sin.

Is that what you are saying?