The key to the Pre-Trib Rapture:

[Truth7t7]

I am lost here. Well how did "Thomas Ice" come into this? So that man is known but we are to toss him out and believe you over him simple because you disagree? Some of your facts are wrong here which are not back up by the word.

From the bottom up you.... not the word of God you said the Church will be protected , just as the hebrews were. I could just stop here. You say this and then say there is no pre-trib verse. You know there is no verse saying the Church will or has to go through the great tribulation. Playing with speculation is fun but very unwise. No need to go on here.

Caught up was talked preached about going back to 100ad. I searched found hymn writer and preacher talked about caught up happening before the great tribulation and this was between 300-400 ad. This was wow.. also on TV where the man talked about and showed this one and many other scrolls. Which proves what? Nothing other then it was talked about. This alone shows me how many truly studied search on this. Again it just means they did preach about it.

For me Jesus said He went back to make us a home..pfft just post it "In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." So where is He? Where are these rooms? Paul didn't say "those that remain" nor "they that remain". He said "WE" which remain will be caught up".

So please don't tell others there is no verse for pre trib when you know there is no verse for mid or post trib. When you also know there is no verse saying the Church will or has to go through the great tribulation. I also wonder.. WHY is Satan not out in the open doing lying wonders now? Well he can't. As long as we are here he wont ever come out in the open. Hello Christ gave us all power all authority over the enemy. You gong to tell me the Church will be here and the Antichrist and false prophet out in the open and you me the Church have no power over him? Is it not written greater is He that is in you then he thats in the world. I give you all power over the enemy.. and nothing <----NOTHING shall by any means hurt you. Something has to be taken out of the way before the antichrist can come out in the open and do lying wonders.

So we know where Christ went and why. We know He will come back and receive us unto Him self so where He is we will be. We know voice,shout,trump will sound as Christ shows up in the air and we know dead will rise and we which remain will be caught up. We know something is holding back the lawless one and before that lawless one comes out in the open he/it that hold him back will be taken out of the way. What each one of us ADD to or TAKE way from what is written.. we did it not Him.

Oh I also can not find where I was promised tomorrow. So I in this moment watch am ready for Christ right now! I will never miss Him. Christ has never once went against you will.

So lets speak nice words of life about people that do not believe the same as us. I post this before about John Paul Jackson. Don't get stuck on the man. Never followed him but liked what he said once about CAUGHT UP. "I am post rapture BUT if Jesus comes pre? I am ready now". That man like so many others knows there is no PRE MID POST verse. Be ready NOW.. this moment is what matters. Are you ready NOW?

Oh.. not here to come back and debate.. there is nothing to debate. Thousand of years ago it would have been asked "who are you? Who knows you? How long have you been walking in what your teach preach" Then all would go pray.

I know of Thomas Ice.. never read anything of him but I know of him. His words have more weight then some unknown on the internet.. like me also..unknown

You have not provided one verse of scripture, to support your claim of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church to heaven, waiting for those verses

 

[Truth7t7]

Indeed the pre-trib rapture position is very tight Scripturally. It ties up all of those loose ends.

A pre-trib rapture is very tight scripturally?

So tight you didn't provide one verse to support your claim

 

[Runningman]

That is another problem for the post-trib position, there is no one who can go to the millenium. As the wicked are destroyed by the Lord at His coming, and all the righteous are raptured at the second coming. Who is left?

The period you're referring to is known as the 1,000 year reign of Christ because Satan will be bound for 1,000 years before roaring back to life, resurfacing, and then briefly persecuting the world.

Satan bound for 1,000 years mean that people won't be corrupted by demonic influence.

This occurs after the wicked are dealt with after the great tribulation at the return of Christ and rapture of the church and the first resurrection of the saints.

Satan comes back, deceives the nations again, battle of Gog and Magog, God destroys all of the wicked again.

Next is the second resurrection of the wicked, great white throne judgement, new heavens and earth where only righteousness dwells, eternity begins. No loose ends.

Check Revelation 16 and Revelation 20.

 

[Scribe]

I am always surprised that people misapprehend the point of the entire passage.

The Thessalonians were bewildered frightened and dismayed because they thought they were now GOING THROUGH the Tribulation.......CONTRARY to the earlier teachings that Paul had provided them. They are in fact "shaken" and "troubled" (NOT filled with joyful anticipation), thinking that they are in the Tribulation..........and had missed the departure a.k.a. a Rapture.

Paul then reconfirms his earlier teachings that they will NOT be going through the Tribulation.

All of the other relevant passages only support this position and never defy it.

I could say it surprises me that you would think they were thinking Tribulation rather than the "Day of Christ" . They may be the same think in your mind but getting in their minds means thinking in 1st century understanding of what prophesy said about the Day of the Lord, which was a Day of Judgment.

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

You have inserted the idea that they thought they were going through the tribulation. That surprises me, because it does not fit the text.

I would rather abide with the text and say they might have been shaken by a letter supposedly from the apostles that the Day of Christ was at hand and it is safe to call it the "Day of the Lord" which spoken of through out scripture would be a day of judgment which included many prophesies.

This may be splitting hairs, but if we stick to the "Day of Judgment" or Day of the Lord spoken of throughout the prophets including Daniel which he uses to remind them, then he could be explaining that if they had entered into the final Day of the Lord they would have seen this prophesy, that of the Wicked being revealed, standing in the temple, etc.

But seeing that would be proof that they were in the Day of the Lord they were not to be shaken since they don't see that.

Does that mean Paul was saying that they will see it? Not necessarily. Their gathering to the Lord could be something that happens right before that Wicked is revealed. Say the same year. This would mean that the rapture or appearing of the Lord to those who are ready for the Bridegroom could occur at any moment. Don't be shaken that you have missed it because if you had you would see that Wicked revealed which is the marked evidence that the Day of the Lord or the Day of Christ's Judgments being poured out on the earth (the Tribulation) had begun.

I think it is important not to rephrase Day of the Lord as Tribulation even though they might be considered the same thing. The Day of the Lord is more familiar in prophesy and the emphasis in those prophesies is that of judgment.

I could be wrong.

 

[Evmur]

2 Thess 2:3
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

2 Thess 2:6
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

2 Thess 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Our departure a.k.a. Rapture has nothing whatever to do with seven years of signs and escalating judgments. It is definitively linked to the man of sin being revealed, and must needs occur beforehand. That's it and that's all.

It does not say that at all

It says that day [when we meet the Lord in the clouds] will not come unless the apostases has come first and the man of sin is revealed the son of perdition who opposes everything god so call or object of worship who takes his seat in the temple claiming that he is himself God.

apostases is rebellion and the man of sin is the man of rebellion.

The way you put it is
that day [the rapture] will not come unless the rapture comes first ... no sense at all.

Darby was practicing pure deceit when he substituted falling away for departure, he was smart, too smart to have made a simple mistake. It is a deception.

 

[Truth7t7]

The period you're referring to is known as the 1,000 year reign of Christ because Satan will be bound for 1,000 years before roaring back to life, resurfacing, and then briefly persecuting the world.

Satan bound for 1,000 years mean that people won't be corrupted by demonic influence.

This occurs after the wicked are dealt with after the great tribulation at the return of Christ and rapture of the church and the first resurrection of the saints.

Satan comes back, deceives the nations again, battle of Gog and Magog, God destroys all of the wicked again.

Next is the second resurrection of the wicked, great white throne judgement, new heavens and earth where only righteousness dwells, eternity begins. No loose ends.

Check Revelation 16 and Revelation 20.

What Are You Going To Do With All That Fire Seen Below In Scripture, "At The Second Coming" Of Jesus Christ, Pretend Like It Dosent Exist?

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Scribe]

It does not say that at all

It says that day [when we meet the Lord in the clouds] will not come unless the apostases has come first and the man of sin is revealed the son of perdition who opposes everything god so call or object of worship who takes his seat in the temple claiming that he is himself God.

apostases is rebellion and the man of sin is the man of rebellion.

The way you put it is
that day [the rapture] will not come unless the rapture comes first ... no sense at all.

Darby was practicing pure deceit when he substituted falling away for departure, he was smart, too smart to have made a simple mistake. It is a deception.

I would guess that any article you have read trying to convince you that the word meant departure like departing on journey or leaving a room is passing on bad information or is attempting to deceive those ignorant of the Greek texts.

The following is from a commentary from Gordon Fee:

The Greek word rendered “rebellion” (apostasia) occurs in the New Testament only here and in Acts 21:21.

In Acts it clearly means “to turn away from,” thus “to become ‘apostate,’ ” picking up in its English expression the same meaning as in the Greek.

Furthermore, the several occurrences of the cognate verb44 usually refer to a “turning away” that amounts to “apostasy,” a deliberate and antagonistic rejection of Christ.

But despite the usual meaning meaning of this noun in Acts 21, it can hardly have that sense here, its earliest usage, since Paul clearly expects perseverance on the part of these believers. After all, nothing in the context indicates that believers will be deceived by the “lawless one.”

Therefore, this noun, which was rendered “falling away” in the KJV, in more recent English translations has been correctly rendered “rebellion.” In secular Greek, in fact, the word was used to refer to a political or military revolt, not in the sense of “falling away” from a position once held, but of a rebellion against a power or deity to whom one was not committed.

Historically, therefore, this word has been understood to refer to some of God’s own people (either believers or Jews) who have chosen to rebel against God and Christ in one way or another. But that seems to place far more emphasis on the primary meaning of the word as such, and not enough on its usage in the present context. Moreover, one should note further that in verses 10–12 part of “the revelation of the Rebel” involves his powers and deceptions among “the perishing,” not among believers.

Therefore, in the present case, just as “the mystery of lawlessness” is already at work (v. 7), to be revealed in all its fullness and intensity with the “parousia” of the Rebel, so the language “rebellion” is used at the outset to describe this great satanic event.


44. Gk. ἀφίστημι; see esp. 1 Tim 4:1; Luke 8:13; Heb 3:12, which thus reflect a common usage of the cognate ἀφίσταναι in the LXX, which occurs most often as referring to a “turning away” from God (e.g., Isa 57:8; 59:13; Jer 2:5; et al.), in each case also reflecting what amounts to “rebellion.”

Fee, Gordon D.. The First and Second Letters to the Thessalonians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament) (pp. 281-282). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co

I do agree that the rebellion, (falling away) here is explained in the rest of the passage. It is all one event.
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
The Falling Away IS the man of sin being revealed and deceiving people to follow him and worship him. That is the Falling Away.

 

[Runningman]

What Are You Going To Do With All That Fire Seen Below In Scripture, "At The Second Coming" Of Jesus Christ, Pretend Like It Dosent Exist?

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

I agree with that there will be a new heaven and earth. The elements will melt and all will be made new. What is the reference to a 1,000 year reign of Christ then? Is it literal or symbolic?

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree with that there will be a new heaven and earth. The elements will melt and all will be made new. What is the reference to a 1,000 year reign of Christ then? Is it literal or symbolic?

The things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 aren't found below?

1.) NO Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) NO Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) NO Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist), A 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Is A Man Made Fairy Tale (Fact)

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time, one day is a thousand years in the Lords spiritual realm (Fact)

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% Is The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

(Symbolic Not Literal)

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

The period you're referring to is known as the 1,000 year reign of Christ because Satan will be bound for 1,000 years before roaring back to life, resurfacing, and then briefly persecuting the world.

Satan bound for 1,000 years mean that people won't be corrupted by demonic influence.

This occurs after the wicked are dealt with after the great tribulation at the return of Christ and rapture of the church and the first resurrection of the saints.

Satan comes back, deceives the nations again, battle of Gog and Magog, God destroys all of the wicked again.

Next is the second resurrection of the wicked, great white throne judgement, new heavens and earth where only righteousness dwells, eternity begins. No loose ends.

Check Revelation 16 and Revelation 20.

Many are confused with the term (First Resurrection) in Revelation 20:5, and believe this suggest different "Times" and multiple resurrections?

There will be one future "Time" of resurrection on the (Last Day) "All" that are in the graves will hear the Lords voice and come forth as seen below in John 5:28-29

There is (Two) resurrections on this last day, (First) the believers to the resurrection of life, (Second) the wicked to eternal damnation in the (Second Death) Lake Of Fire.

The righteous believers are blessed to be in the (First) resurrection unto eternal life.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40 below gives you the time of this resurrection of all, that takes place on the (Last Day) at the final judgement.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The (Last Day), Final Judgement Of All

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

All mens work, both righteous and wicked will be judged by the Lords fire at the second coming, this is the Final judgement, this is the (Last Day)

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

 

[tribesman]

Amillenialism does solve a lot of problems, doesn't it?

 

[Truth7t7]

Amillenialism does solve a lot of problems, doesn't it?

The scripture is very clear, and easy to understand

At the second coming of the Lord in fire, the resurrection of all takes place, the living righteous are caught up, as the Lord dissolves the heavens and earth by fire

Yes it is then, the New Heavens, Earth, Jerusalem, are revealed for eternity

(Behold I Make All Things New)

Jesus Christ Reigns, For Ever And Ever Amen!

 

[Nehemiah6]

At the second coming of the Lord in fire, the resurrection of all takes place, the living righteous are caught up, as the Lord dissolves the heavens and earth by fire

You are VERY SERIOUSLY CONFUSED my friend. You have simply made a mishmash of Bible prophecy. So here is the correct biblical sequence.

1. The Resurrection/Rapture of the Church

2. The reign of the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years (the Tribulation)

3. The Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years)

4. The supernatural shaking of the heavens and the earth

5. The Second Coming of Christ and the battle of Armageddon

6. The millennial reign of Christ for 1,000 years

7. The battle of Gog and Magog

8. The Great White Throne Judgment (preceded by the resurrection of the unrighteous dead)

9. The supernatural burning up of the heavens and the earth

10. The establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth.

 

[cv5]

It does not say that at all

It says that day [when we meet the Lord in the clouds] will not come unless the apostases has come first and the man of sin is revealed the son of perdition who opposes everything god so call or object of worship who takes his seat in the temple claiming that he is himself God.

apostases is rebellion and the man of sin is the man of rebellion.

The way you put it is
that day [the rapture] will not come unless the rapture comes first ... no sense at all.

Darby was practicing pure deceit when he substituted falling away for departure, he was smart, too smart to have made a simple mistake. It is a deception.

Not interested in what Darby has to say. I am however very interested in what Paul has to say....

Find out what the Old Testament has to say about "That Day". And understand that what I said was that the Rapture occurs beforehand.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are VERY SERIOUSLY CONFUSED my friend. You have simply made a mishmash of Bible prophecy. So here is the correct biblical sequence.

1. The Resurrection/Rapture of the Church

2. The reign of the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years (the Tribulation)

3. The Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years)

4. The supernatural shaking of the heavens and the earth

5. The Second Coming of Christ and the battle of Armageddon

6. The millennial reign of Christ for 1,000 years

7. The battle of Gog and Magog

8. The Great White Throne Judgment (preceded by the resurrection of the unrighteous dead)

9. The supernatural burning up of the heavens and the earth

10. The establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth.

The Sequesnce Events:

1. The Man Of Sin/Antichrist revealed in Jerusalem, proclaiming to be God Messiah, the 3.5 year tribulation starts

2. The Two Witnesses Of Rev Capter 11 stand before the Man of Sin/Antichrist for his entire 42 months, bringing all plagues as Often as they will, as the sealed Church is protected, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

3. At the end of this 3.5 year tribulation, the nations of the world are gathered towards Jerusalem, because of the Two Witnesses, and plagues that torment the world

4. The Two Witnesses are killed, lay in the street for 3.5 days, as the nations are gathered in Megiddo, the witnesses are raised to heaven in the sight of the world, as the final hour of earths temptation takes place

5. The Great Earthquake, islands and mountain moved, as Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection of all takes place, the living righteous are caught up, as the Lord returns to Armegeddon, in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire, as the wicked are caught in it, the Lake of Fire, the righteous pass through it, judgement complete

6. On the other side of the Lords fire in judgement, The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, are revealed to the righteous

7.7.7. Jesus Christ Reigns For Ever And Ever, Amen!

 

[Truth7t7]

Not interested in what Darby has to say. I am however very interested in what Paul has to say....

Find out what the Old Testament has to say about "That Day". And understand that what I said was that the Rapture occurs beforehand.

No such thing as a Pre-Trib rapture found in scripture.

You should study Darby and Scofield, they are the very foundations of your belief in Dispensationalism

 

[Evmur]

Not interested in what Darby has to say. I am however very interested in what Paul has to say....

Find out what the Old Testament has to say about "That Day". And understand that what I said was that the Rapture occurs beforehand.

"That day" is the day Paul is speaking about. Concerning the coming of the Lord and our gathering to meet Him THAT day.

He doesn't pause mid sentence and without so much as drawing breath change subject and start talking about an entirely different event. The teaching that "that day" must always refer to the day of judgement is also a Darby teaching.

It is exactly why he manipulated the word apostasis to mean departure rather than rebellion. His teaching was repudiated every British theologian, so he took it to America.

 

[Evmur]

I would guess that any article you have read trying to convince you that the word meant departure like departing on journey or leaving a room is passing on bad information or is attempting to deceive those ignorant of the Greek texts.

The following is from a commentary from Gordon Fee:

The Greek word rendered “rebellion” (apostasia) occurs in the New Testament only here and in Acts 21:21.

In Acts it clearly means “to turn away from,” thus “to become ‘apostate,’ ” picking up in its English expression the same meaning as in the Greek.

Furthermore, the several occurrences of the cognate verb44 usually refer to a “turning away” that amounts to “apostasy,” a deliberate and antagonistic rejection of Christ.

But despite the usual meaning meaning of this noun in Acts 21, it can hardly have that sense here, its earliest usage, since Paul clearly expects perseverance on the part of these believers. After all, nothing in the context indicates that believers will be deceived by the “lawless one.”

Therefore, this noun, which was rendered “falling away” in the KJV, in more recent English translations has been correctly rendered “rebellion.” In secular Greek, in fact, the word was used to refer to a political or military revolt, not in the sense of “falling away” from a position once held, but of a rebellion against a power or deity to whom one was not committed.

Historically, therefore, this word has been understood to refer to some of God’s own people (either believers or Jews) who have chosen to rebel against God and Christ in one way or another. But that seems to place far more emphasis on the primary meaning of the word as such, and not enough on its usage in the present context. Moreover, one should note further that in verses 10–12 part of “the revelation of the Rebel” involves his powers and deceptions among “the perishing,” not among believers.

Therefore, in the present case, just as “the mystery of lawlessness” is already at work (v. 7), to be revealed in all its fullness and intensity with the “parousia” of the Rebel, so the language “rebellion” is used at the outset to describe this great satanic event.


44. Gk. ἀφίστημι; see esp. 1 Tim 4:1; Luke 8:13; Heb 3:12, which thus reflect a common usage of the cognate ἀφίσταναι in the LXX, which occurs most often as referring to a “turning away” from God (e.g., Isa 57:8; 59:13; Jer 2:5; et al.), in each case also reflecting what amounts to “rebellion.”

Fee, Gordon D.. The First and Second Letters to the Thessalonians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament) (pp. 281-282). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co

I do agree that the rebellion, (falling away) here is explained in the rest of the passage. It is all one event.
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
The Falling Away IS the man of sin being revealed and deceiving people to follow him and worship him. That is the Falling Away.

Great.

I would say that the falling away and rebellion is from the world not the church, that final throwing off of all belief and devotion to God.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"That day" is the day Paul is speaking about. Concerning the coming of the Lord and our gathering to meet Him THAT day.

He doesn't pause mid sentence and without so much as drawing breath change subject and start talking about an entirely different event.

But that wouldn't be the case (that he's doing that).

In the context of these 2 chpts, Paul is covering various "points-in-time" (and much "spans-of-time") as what all he is covering (again, just like the RELATED passage ALSO show [Rev4-19 / Dan9:27(26b) / Olivet Discourse / 2Th1-2 -- each covering the entire SEVEN YEARS]).

For example, most ppl do not believe that "the man of sin BE REVEALED" at the same exact moment that "the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and SHALL DESTROY by the appearance of the presence of Him." Most acknowledge a spans of time occurring between these two points in the chronology (though differing, perhaps, in their views of just "how much time").

One key to ascertaining "what happens when, in relation to what other thing/things" in this text, is the fact that, 1) in every place where the phrases "the day of the Lord" [v.2 (v.3a's Subject)] and "IN THAT DAY" [1:10] occur elsewhere in Scripture, they always refer to the SAME time-period [and always earthly-located]; and 2) Paul's use of the phrase "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (1Th5:2-3--which is the point-in-time of "the DOTL's" ARRIVAL, he's saying) hailing back to Jesus' words when He spoke in His Olivet Discourse re: "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (which is just the START of MANY MORE "birth pangs [plural]" which FOLLOW ON from these, and which "BoBPs" are equivalent [we can note] with the "SEALS" which were later disclosed via John's writings in 95ad).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[...] is also a Darby teaching.

It is exactly why he manipulated the word apostasis to mean departure rather than rebellion.

The thing is, he didn't.

You speak as though you know him... but a simple "Search" would prove that he indeed did NOT teach "apostasia [/apostasis]" means "departure" (rather than "rebellion" [from some faith issue])... and the reader can readily ascertain this / his view by looking at his Commentary of this passage, where he is explaining that word in the same way that you all are understanding it (not its most basic definition, as "departure," as you are suggesting he did):

[quoting from one small portion of Darby's commentary, but it is sprinkled THROUGHOUT, in just such a way]

"[...] the already known fact is asserted, that the apostacy must previously take place, and then the man of sin be revealed. Solemn truth! Everything takes its place. The forms and the name of Christianity have long been maintained; true Christians have been disowned; but now there should be a public renunciation of the faith an apostacy. True Christians should have their true place in heaven. But, besides this, there should be a person who would fully realise in sin the character of man without God. He is the man of sin. He does his own will it is but Adam fully developed; and incited by the enemy, he opposes himself to God (it is open enmity against God), and he exalts himself above all that bears the name of God; he assumes the place of God in His temple. So that there is apostacy, that is, the open renunciation of Christianity in general, and an individual who concentrates in his own person (as to the principles of iniquity) the opposition that is made against God.

[and quoting further down]

"Now when the assembly (the assembly, that is, as composed of the true members of Christ) is gone, and consequently the Holy Ghost as the Comforter is no longer dwelling here below, then the apostacy takes place, [See Note #6] the time to remove the hindrance is come, the evil is unbridled, and at length (without saying how much time it will take) the evil assumes a definite shape in him who is its head. The beast comes up from the abyss. Satan not God gives him his authority; and in the second beast all the energy of Satan is present. The man of sin is there.
[...]

" Note #6
"The principle of this may be widely at work individually, as in 1 John 2, it had begun, but the open public manifestation was to come. Jude gives the creeping in to produce corruption John, the going out which characterises the Antichrist.

"Note #7
"We may remark that the apostacy develops itself under the three forms in which man has been in relationship with God; Nature it is the man of sin unrestrained, who exalts himself; Judaism he sits as God in the temple of God; Christianity it is to this that the term apostacy is directly applied in the passage before us."

-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/darby/2_thessalonians/2.htm

[end quoting from Darby's commentary on 2Th2... but again, he mentions this, this way, throughout the piece! I'm not seeing HIM define the word as "DEPARTURE [/RAPTURE]" ANYWHERE in this commentary of that chpt... if he does, plz point it out to me... and yes, my eyesight is BAD lol]

____________


So, no, Darby did not speak of the text in the manner that you suggest he did (at least that I can tell!)... his viewpoint was closer to *all you-all's* explanation of the word "apostasia [/apostasis]," rather than the explanation a few of us have been presenting ("THE Departure," as in, a "spatial / geographical departure" [verse 1, previously mentioned in the CONTEXT qualifies! (esp with regard to that "otherwise unnecessary" usage of the DEFINITE ARTICLE ['THE'])] and which is a totally LEGIT "definition" of said word).

Let's not wander too far afield of things, here, simply to try to drive your [faulty] points home, and convince the readers of things that are not actually factual in nature. = )