The key to the Pre-Trib Rapture:

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Mar 4, 2020
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#21
You project a tribulation where Satan rules, as Christian's run from Satan in fear of being martyred?

The bible teaches that the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 will bring literal plagues upon the wicked world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, the (Sealed) Church will be protected, just as the Hebrews were protected.

The Two Witnesses Rule The Tribulation, Not Satan, Dont Be Deceived.

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

A Remake Of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, the Two Witnesses Are In Control, Through Gods Plagues In Judgement, don't be deceived.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Never looked at it like that before, but I'm open to it. I think there will be a lot of wrath being flung about.

There will be Gods wrath and Satan's wrath present on the Earth during the great tribulation. This will be the time right before the end of the world.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,177
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#22
John the 3.5 year tribulation starts when the (Man of Sin/Antichrist) is revealed to the world in Jerusalem, proclaiming to be God Messiah

The living church present on earth at this time will go through the 3.5 year tribulation.

I can't be any more descriptive than that, there will be no pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, a false teaching of John N. Darby 1850's and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference bible, better known as (Dispensationalism)
It would be better to die and be with the Lord.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
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#23
Pre-tribulation rapture doesn't exist. Compare the texts of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
The Olivet Discourse does not (anywhere) cover the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]".

Jesus was not covering that Subject there, but rather the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [see also Lk12:36 passage parallel to the Matt24 sections]), and that which immediately precedes and LEADS UP to THAT--all "earthly-located" things. (He is NOT covering the Subject of "our Rapture" in the Olivet Discourse, anywhere. EVERYTHING in Matt24 (for example) FOLLOWS "our Rapture". ["the beginning of birth PANGS" are equivalent the "SEALS" for example])



[BTW, no one is denying that there will indeed exist "saints / believers" IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib years, but these "come to faith" FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
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#24
Never looked at it like that before, but I'm open to it. I think there will be a lot of wrath being flung about.

There will be Gods wrath and Satan's wrath present on the Earth during the great tribulation. This will be the time right before the end of the world.
It was (Commanded) Only those men which have not the seal of God will be tormented, five months, desiring to die, and death flees?

Yes the (Sealed) Church is protected, the (Two Witnesses) rule the tribulation through plagues and judgement, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, don't be deceived.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 9:2-6KJV
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
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#25
The Olivet Discourse does not (anywhere) cover the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]".

Jesus was not covering that Subject there, but rather the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [see also Lk12:36 passage parallel to the Matt24 sections]), and that which immediately precedes and LEADS UP to THAT--all "earthly-located" things. (He is NOT covering the Subject of "our Rapture" in the Olivet Discourse, anywhere. EVERYTHING in Matt24 (for example) FOLLOWS "our Rapture". ["the beginning of birth PANGS" are equivalent the "SEALS" for example])



[BTW, no one is denying that there will indeed exist "saints / believers" IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib years, but these "come to faith" FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved
, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God
, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#26
I would believe in a pre-tribulation rapture if and only if that's what the Bible says. We have studied this topic, debated, and hashed out repeatedly on this message board.

Pre-tribulation rapture doesn't exist. Compare the texts of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

The bottom line is there is no undoing what Matthew 24:29-31 says and what all other rapture verses confirm: a rapture occurs at the once and only second coming of Christ, at the last trumpet, immediately after the tribulation.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Yes we agree Jesus returns after the trib.
The rapture is NOT THAT postrib return.

The debate is mostly that dynamic.

( the dynamic that is never initiated by postribbers)

Really someone should start that thread to force you guys to debate.

You guys only dimension is to repeat over and over non applicable verses.

The white horses blacken the sky, and an already destroyed earth sees the army of evil destroyed in unprecedented slaughter.

It is a massive military operation.

Now you guys say Jesus sitting on a cloud with a SICKLE is that same dynamic.(rev 14)

You guys actually Believe in acts 1 the angels say a non military solo ascention of Jesus as a loving meek savior is EXACTLY the SAME as the warrior with billions of horses??????

The angels say LIKE MANNER!!!
YOUR RAPTURE PERCEPTION says they are the same thing.
You guys actually think those opposites are EXACTLY alike.

Plus you have the dead in Christ raised AFTER THE LIVING


...and then say the other side has no verses.

And i am not even warmed up.

Pretrib rapture is a slam dunk.

One of the easiest doctrines to defend
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,388
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#27
Do not fear there is no evidence that you will be included. If you do not desire to be with the Savior when judgment falls upon this world then you may stay and endure the tribulation with them.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

For the cause of Christ
Roger
We wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#28
The Olivet Discourse does not (anywhere) cover the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]".
You say that the Olivet Discourse does not cover the subject of rapture, but, in fact, it does.

According to Mark 23:27, angels will gather Jesus' elect from the earth and then take them to the sky.

There are no people in the sky to gather meaning this verse is not talking about gathering people from the heavens (sky.)

The location is Earth, the time is after the tribulation, the setting is the return of Christ.

People will be taken from the surface of earth to the sky. It's the rapture.

This is also referenced in Matthew 24:31.

Mark 13:27
27And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
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#29
Yes we agree Jesus returns after the trib.
The rapture is NOT THAT postrib return.

The debate is mostly that dynamic.

( the dynamic that is never initiated by postribbers)

Really someone should start that thread to force you guys to debate.

You guys only dimension is to repeat over and over non applicable verses.

The white horses blacken the sky, and an already destroyed earth sees the army of evil destroyed in unprecedented slaughter.

It is a massive military operation.

Now you guys say Jesus sitting on a cloud with a SICKLE is that same dynamic.(rev 14)

You guys actually Believe in acts 1 the angels say a non military solo ascention of Jesus as a loving meek savior is EXACTLY the SAME as the warrior with billions of horses??????

The angels say LIKE MANNER!!!
YOUR RAPTURE PERCEPTION says they are the same thing.
You guys actually think those opposites are EXACTLY alike.

Plus you have the dead in Christ raised AFTER THE LIVING


...and then say the other side has no verses.

And i am not even warmed up.

Pretrib rapture is a slam dunk.

One of the easiest doctrines to defend
More of man's opinions, without scriptural support to validate the claims made.

There is no such thing as a Pre-Trib rapture of the Church to heaven found in the Holy Bible

A false teaching of John N. Darby 1850's, and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofields 1909 reference bible, better known as (Dispensationalism)

By all means, post scriptural support for your claims made, waiting? :giggle:
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#30
You say that the Olivet Discourse does not cover the subject of rapture, but, in fact, it does.

According to Mark 23:27, angels will gather Jesus' elect from the earth and then take them to the sky.

There are no people in the sky to gather meaning this verse is not talking about gathering people from the heavens (sky.)

The location is Earth, the time is after the tribulation, the setting is the return of Christ.

People wj be taken from the surface of earth to the sky. It's the rapture.

This is also discusses in Matthew 24:31.

Mark 13:27
27And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
nope

The rapture verses debunk that

Read mat 24. After the trib ANGELS GATHER FROM HEAVEN

NOT JESUS.

BUT HEY JUST IGNORE IT.
.....AND THE RAPTURE VERSES.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
#31
nope

The rapture verses debunk that

Read mat 24. After the trib ANGELS GATHER FROM HEAVEN

NOT JESUS.

BUT HEY JUST IGNORE IT.
.....AND THE RAPTURE VERSES.
More of man's opinions, without scriptural support to validate the claims made.

There is no such thing as a Pre-Trib rapture of the Church to heaven found in the Holy Bible

A false teaching of John N. Darby 1850's, and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofields 1909 reference bible, better known as (Dispensationalism)

By all means, post scriptural support for your claims made, waiting? :giggle:
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
#32
You say that the Olivet Discourse does not cover the subject of rapture, but, in fact, it does.

According to Mark 23:27, angels will gather Jesus' elect from the earth and then take them to the sky.

There are no people in the sky to gather meaning this verse is not talking about gathering people from the heavens (sky.)

The location is Earth, the time is after the tribulation, the setting is the return of Christ.

People wj be taken from the surface of earth to the sky. It's the rapture.

This is also discusses in Matthew 24:31.

Mark 13:27
27And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
Already covered this in a different thread (perhaps even with you :) ).

The text is not making to point that the "destination-location" is "TO the ENDS of heaven"... it is making the point that they will be gathered "from all over--from the extremities [no place left out]..." like saying, "gathered FROM here TO Timbuktu" is not making the point that "Timbuktu" is the "destination" (but rather, that they're "gathered" FROM THE EXTREMITIES--NO PLACE LEFT OUT from whence they'll be "gathered").




Consider:

Matt24:29-31 (and its parallels) CORRESPONDS with Isaiah 27:12-13 (note WHO and TO WHERE and BY WHICH TRUMPET and WHEN [and WHO "HE SHALL SEND" to do said gathering, and IN WHAT MANNER: "ONE by ONE"--in EVERY WAY completely DISTINCT from that of "our Rapture" ;) ], etc)... this is not "our Rapture [to the meeting of the Lord in the air / OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM, there / CAUGHT-UP/AWAY/SNATCH ("AS ONE" [the "ONE BODY" in ONE SNAP ACTION])]"... no. Not the same event AT ALL.

[again see Lk12:36-37 [parallel Matt24-something], "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"--see?! (not "our Rapture"!)]
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,177
3,700
113
#33
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved
, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God
, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
I would say, you're mixing Jewish passages with the church. The church has not replaced Israel.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#34
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved
, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God
, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Some of the dumbest stuff anyone could post. God is sovereign so He is not concerned that you do not believe. What you have you have not received from the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
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#35
I would say, you're mixing Jewish passages with the church. The church has not replaced Israel.
John I would say your in denial of the very simple and clear scripture before your eyes, Jesus Christ returns in fire and Final judgement, the heavens and earth are (Dissolved) by the Lords fire.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved
, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God
, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#36
Rodger there isnt one scripture in Gods word that teaches of a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, not one.

This is a false teaching, promoted by John N. Darby, and Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible, that was the greatest world influence, planting this false teaching

Scofields prodigy and student, (Lewis S. Chafer) founded Dallas Theological Cemetary, as an extension of the church Adulterer Scofield pastored.

Gods judgement will come upon the unsaved, (Unsealed) world during the tribulation, the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 will bring plagues upon this world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the church will be protected, just as the Hebrews were.
Well scripture does clearly identify those who accuse the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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113
#37
nope

The rapture verses debunk that

Read mat 24. After the trib ANGELS GATHER FROM HEAVEN

NOT JESUS.

BUT HEY JUST IGNORE IT.
.....AND THE RAPTURE VERSES.

All of the rapture verses are in context of the return of Jesus. Jesus returns after the great tribulation. The elect are gathered when Jesus returns. It's very plain in the Bible.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#38
All of the rapture verses are in context of the return of Jesus. Jesus returns after the great tribulation. The elect are gathered when Jesus returns. It's very plain in the Bible.
Yes we agree. The rapture is in sink with this return for her.

He returns for his bride.

He returns 7 yearrs later with his bride.

All very simple


In no way is the return on horses the rapture .....which is auhenticated by scripture
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
#39
Well scripture does clearly identify those who accuse the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Your claim of accusation of saints is false, a distraction from Gods words of truth presented, Jesus Christ returns in fire and Final judgement, (Fact)
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
#40
It was (Commanded) Only those men which have not the seal of God will be tormented, five months, desiring to die, and death flees?

Yes the (Sealed) Church is protected, the (Two Witnesses) rule the tribulation through plagues and judgement, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, don't be deceived.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 9:2-6KJV
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
God, the two witnesses, and the church.

The devil, the anti-Christ and false prophet, and their followers.

Is this like the final showdown?

Edit: just had a breakthrough realization with the part about the seals mentioned in those verses. 🤯