Who is the 12th apostle in Rev 21:14?

[Truth7t7]

We really should be thankful when someone corrects our bad theology or just points out our sin in general.

You mean like a poster teaching that satan has access to Gods 3rd heaven on a daily basis, beyond bad theology.

 

[Truth7t7]

When was Matthias shown to be in the Presence of Christ?
Then of the 12 is [past tense]. Don't you understand word usage?

No Mystery, Its Plain And Simple

Teacher, Do I Get A Gold Star On My Paper?

Acts 1:23-26KJV
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

 

[posthuman]

And it is Paul who wrote over half of the New Testament

by word count, Luke wrote more of the NT than Paul.



counting by # of books is misleading when they all vary greatly in length -- for example did Jude write 'just as much as Matthew' ?

 

[Guojing]

No Mystery, Its Plain And Simple

Teacher, Do I Get A Gold Star On My Paper?

Acts 1:23-26KJV
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Many people here like to ignore what Peter said about the criterion to be counted among the 12, in Acts 1

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Paul would not have qualified, but here, these people like to create their own "requirements to be among the 12".

 

[throughfaith]

1 cor15

1¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3¶For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, THEN OF THE TWELVE

6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9¶For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

And as an aside thats the Gospel today 😉

“Then of the twelve” (vs. 5). The next eyewitnesses that Paul lists are the twelve Jewish apostles. That’s important, because it doesn’t say “the eleven” as the Gospels do. So Paul did not count himself as one of the twelve apostles. Moreover, he does count Matthias (Acts 1:26) as the apostle to replace Judas, and Matthias is present with the eleven when Christ appears in the upper room. So the qualification laid down by Peter in Acts 1:21–22 was a legitimate one. Matthias had to be with the other apostles “to be a witness WITH US of his resurrection” (Acts 1:22).

 

[Evmur]

OK, the answer is Paul. Here is the evidence for him.

Jesus gave the Great Commission to "the 11".

Matt 28-
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Mark 16-
14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

Acts 1-
1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles*** whom he had chosen. 3 He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. 4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

2 passages mention 11 disciples, and Acts 1 says "to the apostles".

Mark 3:14 - And he appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach

This proves that the 11 remaining disciples were also apostles. Only them while Jesus was on earth, before and after His resurrection.

Was Matthias present when Jesus commissioned the 11? No. There is no evidence of anyone other than the 11. So Matthias' lot casting was a human thing, not a God thing.

So, who else was given a direct commission regarding the GC? Only Paul.

In Acts 9:15 Jesus in a vision told Ananias:
15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Jesus was telling Ananias that Paul was His "chosen instrument" to fulfill the GC.

Further evidence is from Paul's own testimony:

Acts 26-
19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven.
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

v.20 is a clear statement of the GC.

One of the criteria of being an apostle was physically seeing the Lord. That was fulfilled when Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus.

1 Cor 9:1 - Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?

So, Paul alone fits the requirements of being an apostle. And he fulfilled the GC more than any other apostle.

Not Paul ... the conditions for the 12 apostles upon whom the church is founded was that they had to be witness to "His coming in and going out [His life] His death, burial and resurrection" they had to be eye witnesses.

Even though Paul is the great apostle he acknowledged that he was not one of the pillars of the church. In his calling for the great council in Jerusalem he was submitting himself to them. I am SURE if the council had gone against Paul he would have become a break away apostle and there would have been schism..

 

[throughfaith]

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

“This ministry and apostleship” (vs. 25) shows clearly that Paul could not have qualified. Paul was NOT baptized by John the Baptist, and he did NOT “company” (vs. 21) with the other eleven apostles until years after Acts 1:10.

 

[throughfaith]

Several men are called apostles besides “THE TWELVE.” These men are Andronicus (Rom. 16:7), Junia Apollos (1 Cor. 4:6,9), Sosthenes (1 Cor. 1:1, 4:9), Silas (1 Thess. 1:1 2:6), and Timothy

 

[posthuman]

There are actually 13 tribes of Israel; there is no tribe of Joseph instead he is represented as Jacob's son by both of his own sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, adopted by Jacob.

Depending on how and why they are being listed in scripture, we're given different lists in different orders, because the 13 are called 12. One ((Joseph)) becomes two and another is omitted.

Perhaps in spirit both Paul and Matthias are taking the place of Judas. In that case the question of which one has his name on the foundation is like asking which of the 13 tribes do we leave out when we are going to list 12 of them? The answer has to do with why we are making the list and what the list is representing - it's not about one being greater than another or not being a son of Jacob.

 

[Live4Him]

You mean like a poster teaching that satan has access to Gods 3rd heaven on a daily basis, beyond bad theology.

Only to someone like you who doesn't understand how to rightly divide God's word.

 

[KingdomBrat]

[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: Paul is saying that Jesus was seen of Peter on one occasion and then Jesus was seen by the 12 on another occasion. Paul is referring to 12 apostles seeing Jesus all at the same time. Judas was not there. Who was he talking about? Since it was not him (Paul) he must be including Matthias even though Matthias was not chosen by lot until the day of Pentecost he was at this meeting with Jesus Paul is referring to.

I think you're adding another sighting when it's all speaking of the same event.

 

[KingdomBrat]

Right here:

Acts chapter 1

[15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
[19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
[21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
[23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Matthias was there "ALL THE TIME THAT THE LORD JESUS WENT IN AND OUT AMONG US", with the "us" being the apostles, "BEGINNING WITH THE BAPTISM OF JOHN, UNTO THAT SAME DAY THAT HE", Jesus, "WAS TAKEN UP FROM US", with the "us" being the other apostles.

Got it?


Of course, it's past tense.

Again, Paul said:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

After Jesus rose from the dead, he was seen by Cephas or Simon Peter, and then of the twelve (including Matthias because Judas was already dead).

Here is the account:

Luke chapter 24

[33] And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
[34] Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
[35] And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
[36] And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

The "they" in verse 33 were the two men that Jesus walked with on the road to Emmaus after his resurrection from the dead.

When they returned to Jerusalem, they "found the eleven gathered together, AND THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM" (vs. 33).

Of course, as we've already established from what Peter said in Acts chapter 1, this "them that were with them" INCLUDED MATTHIAS.

Well, what were these two men told when they arrived in Jerusalem?

"The Lord is risen indeed, AND HATH APPEARED TO SIMON" (vs. 34) or Cephas, just like Paul said (I Cor. 15:5).

Now, we're looking for the time when Jesus also appeared to "the twelve" (I Cor. 15:5), with Matthias being the twelfth.

It's right here:

"And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them" (vs. 36), with the "them" being "the eleven gathered together, AND THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM", and Matthias was there "with them" (Acts 1:21-23).

Got it?

I already knew he was part of the [72] sent out. I just wanted to see if someone else knew that.

 

[KingdomBrat]

No Mystery, Its Plain And Simple

Teacher, Do I Get A Gold Star On My Paper?

Acts 1:23-26KJV
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

He was part of the 72 sent out by Christ, naturally he, like the other 59 excluding the Disciples themselves, were all sent out.

 

[KingdomBrat]

There are actually 13 tribes of Israel; there is no tribe of Joseph instead he is represented as Jacob's son by both of his own sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, adopted by Jacob.

Depending on how and why they are being listed in scripture, we're given different lists in different orders, because the 13 are called 12. One ((Joseph)) becomes two and another is omitted.

Perhaps in spirit both Paul and Matthias are taking the place of Judas. In that case the question of which one has his name on the foundation is like asking which of the 13 tribes do we leave out when we are going to list 12 of them? The answer has to do with why we are making the list and what the list is representing - it's not about one being greater than another or not being a son of Jacob.

Excellent Point Made!

 

[CS1]

But he was called The 11 apostle used lots. This is a biblical way before Pentecost ( Paul was certainly chosen aswell).

Numbers 26:55; 33:54.
Proverbs 16:33
Jonah 1:7
Acts 1:26


Sounds like to me you are saying that the 11 Apostles made a very bad mistake which they should never have done?

On the contrary we have in Scripture that Matthias was Chosen by the 11 (we can presume he was already a believer unlike Paul when he was called). So in scripture we have proof that Matthias was indeed an apostle as was Paul.

What we do not have in scripture is that Matthias was an illegitimate apostle because the 11 Apostles made a blunder. If the 12 had made such a serious blunder as you are suggesting then I am sure God would have let us know in his word.

I think your position on Paul is an untenable position. Its more speculation than exegesis.

Whatever you think it sounds like I said I did not even suggest it was a bad mistake. I never said Matthais was NOT an apostle.
IF you want more Proof that Jesus made a distinction between those he personally called over those after He ascended we must go to what Jesus said about the 12 original.

In context to the 12 , The Gospel of John 15:19 Jesus speaking He says:

in verse 19

“If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Jesus here is speaking to the 12 and to those HE has chosen. Can't be much clearer than that. We know that God is still calling and choosing, however, that application to us is right but the context of what Jesus said here was to the !@ HE has chosen.

Paul is the only one after the ascension where Jesus came to and personally called.

 

[CS1]

Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said...[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: . Therefore Paul stated that there were the 12 that saw Jesus and he recognized them as 12. You cannot dismiss that. Your speculation about Paul being one of the 12 when Paul himself states that other 12 were the 12 cannot be dismissed with your theory. Nice try but you must concede that Paul is correct and you were wrong.

Very good point Paul was speaking in 1cor 15 of the resurrected Lord too. So who is the 12th spoken of in REV?

 

[phil36]

Whatever you think it sounds like I said I did not even suggest it was a bad mistake. I never said Matthais was NOT an apostle.
IF you want more Proof that Jesus made a distinction between those he personally called over those after He ascended we must go to what Jesus said about the 12 original.

In context to the 12 , The Gospel of John 15:19 Jesus speaking He says:

in verse 19

“If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Jesus here is speaking to the 12 and to those HE has chosen. Can't be much clearer than that. We know that God is still calling and choosing, however, that application to us is right but the context of what Jesus said here was to the !@ HE has chosen.

Paul is the only one after the ascension where Jesus came to and personally called.

Again, your making an argument that does not prove your point that Paul was number '12'. Matthias was chosen by God. The apostles prayed and asked God who shall they choose and they used lots (as they did previously in scripture before Pentecost --

They prayed first:

Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen Acts 1:24


Numbers 26:55; 33:54.
Proverbs 16:33
Jonah 1:7
Acts 1:26


1 Corinthians 15

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.


Now to put this in context of the OP:

Eph 2.

12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

..............consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.



and then..........


The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21:14

 

[Scribe]

Very good point Paul was speaking in 1cor 15 of the resurrected Lord too. So who is the 12th spoken of in REV?

Do you mean who are the 12 apostles names on the foundations of the New Jerusalem? If someone really needs an answer to that I would go with Matthias. However, I don't think that is the point. It is not about the specific names so much as the theological truth represented in the vision of the apostles teachings that make up the foundation of the church. So Paul is included in that foundation whether his name is inscribed or not.

But so are you and I. Called as ministers of the Gospel we are building on that foundation. We must make sure we build with gold, silver, precious stones of Jesus Christ and not wood, hay, and stubble, senseless debates that do not result in knowing Christ and making him Known.

 

[CS1]

Do you mean who are the 12 apostles names on the foundations of the New Jerusalem? If someone really needs an answer to that I would go with Matthias. However, I don't think that is the point. It is not about the specific names so much as the theological truth represented in the vision of the apostles teachings that make up the foundation of the church. So Paul is included in that foundation whether his name is inscribed or not.

But so are you and I. Called as ministers of the Gospel we are building on that foundation. We must make sure we build with gold, silver, precious stones of Jesus Christ and not wood, hay, and stubble, senseless debates that do not result in knowing Christ and making him Known.

I was waiting for someone to make that point, I should have known my brother Scribe would have.

is it possible the 12 spoken in Rev has nothing to do with a person but more of the message given from the Holy Spirit to the churches? and are the foundational truths of the church?

 

[CS1]

Again, your making an argument that does not prove your point that Paul was number '12'. Matthias was chosen by God. The apostles prayed and asked God who shall they choose and they used lots (as they did previously in scripture before Pentecost --

They prayed first:

Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen Acts 1:24


Numbers 26:55; 33:54.
Proverbs 16:33
Jonah 1:7
Acts 1:26


1 Corinthians 15

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.


Now to put this in context of the OP:

Eph 2.

12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

..............consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.



and then..........


The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21:14

Yes, you are correct, yet I did not say Mattias was not an apostle or with certainty, he is the 12th spoken in Rev or paul for that matter. But I am very much thinking it has to do more of what Scribe was speaking about.