Who is the 12th apostle in Rev 21:14?

Live4Him · Mar 8, 2021

"But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." (Gal. 1:19)

Jesus himself is called an Apostle in scripture:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;" (Heb. 3:1)

CS1 · Mar 8, 2021

phil36 said:

What I am saying is we do not see in the word of God Matthias being chosen as the first 12 were. he was voted in by a lot cast. Although Matthias was an eyewitness of the Resurrected Lord Jesus did not call as he did the others.

Jesus came to Paul and Jesus said I have chosen him ( paul)
Acts 9:15-16

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children[c] of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

phil36 · Mar 8, 2021

CS1 said:

But he was called The 11 apostle used lots. This is a biblical way before Pentecost ( Paul was certainly chosen aswell).

Numbers 26:55; 33:54.
Proverbs 16:33
Jonah 1:7
Acts 1:26

Sounds like to me you are saying that the 11 Apostles made a very bad mistake which they should never have done?

On the contrary we have in Scripture that Matthias was Chosen by the 11 (we can presume he was already a believer unlike Paul when he was called). So in scripture we have proof that Matthias was indeed an apostle as was Paul.

What we do not have in scripture is that Matthias was an illegitimate apostle because the 11 Apostles made a blunder. If the 12 had made such a serious blunder as you are suggesting then I am sure God would have let us know in his word.

I think your position on Paul is an untenable position. Its more speculation than exegesis.

Nehemiah6 · Mar 8, 2021

Guojing said:

Yes, poor Mathias. After one mention of his name, he disappears altogether. But the apostle Paul dominates the New Testament. So who else could it be but Paul?

Which also means that there were no more apostles after those twelve.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 8, 2021

Live4Him said:

Ummm...NO.

Acts chapter 1

[15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
[19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
[21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
[23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

According to Peter, Matthias "companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us", so there's the evidence that you claim doesn't exist.

As far as your dismissal of God in relation to Matthias' calling as an apostle is concerned, you couldn't possibly be more wrong.

For starters, God had foretold "in the book of Psalms" (vs . 20), as Peter so rightly noted, that somebody was going to need to take Judas' place or "his bishoprick let another take" (vs. 20).

This is what Peter was referring to:

"Let his days be few; and let another take his office." (Psalm 109:8)

GOD is the one who foreordained Judas' replacement, and GOD is the one to whom those gathered in the upper room prayed:

[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

With such being the case, who are you to allege that "Matthias' lot casting was a human thing, not a God thing"?

Furthermore, PAUL HIMSELF recognized Matthias as one of the twelve, when he said:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
[6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Jesus "was seen of Cephas" or Peter AFTER HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, AND AFTER JUDAS HAD DIED, AND "THEN OF THE TWELVE", and "the twelve" included Matthias.

Just for the record.

Are you suggesting that Peter was the 12th and whose name will be on one of the layers of foundations of the New Jerusalem?

But he is already part of the of the 11.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 8, 2021

phil36 said:

Didn't you read my answer? Paul was given the GC face to face, just like all of the original 11 disciples/apostles.

No I don't. All I have to do (and have done so) is prove that Matthias was NEVER present when Jesus gave the GC to the 11.

But Paul did get the GC face to face with Jesus. Just as the 11 did.

That's the proof.

Acts 1 indicates that the group of disciples after Jesus' ascension was 120 (v.15). And Jesus NEVER gave any of them the GC.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 8, 2021

posthuman said:

Yes. Barnabas.

Acts 14:14 - But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:

phil36 · Mar 8, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Didn't you read my answer? Paul was given the GC face to face, just like all of the original 11 disciples/apostles.

No I don't. All I have to do (and have done so) is prove that Matthias was NEVER present when Jesus gave the GC to the 11.

But Paul did get the GC face to face with Jesus. Just as the 11 did.

That's the proof.

Acts 1 indicates that the group of disciples after Jesus' ascension was 120 (v.15). And Jesus NEVER gave any of them the GC.

Hi FreeGrace2,

What is GC?

Pilgrimshope · Mar 8, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Jesus personally appeared to and chose each of the first eleven , he also personally appeared to and chose Paul

Matthias was chosen by casting lots before the Holy Spirit was given.

“And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭

Jesus had instructed them to go wait in the city until the spirit came Paul’s choosing is what an apostle requires to see the lord and be chosen as his witness.

personally I feel as if Peter jumped the gun just a bit and decided to appoint an apostle before he was given the holy ghost

I would say Paul is the official replacement for Judas , given also that Paul was present and approving of stephens stoning death.

I believe Paul’s choosing was of God for the purpose of taking someone who was utterly opposed to Christ Jesus and his message and making him an apostle and crusader and even a hero of faith to the church , for Christ Jesus and the gospel.

Christ choosing a former Pharisee who has set out to destroy the church , to be one of the leaders of the church shows Gods transforming power to the world who needs it

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

sometimes God chooses the most unlikely for an example of his glory and power to save and change us

crossnote · Mar 8, 2021

I'll go with Paul.
Well over half the Letters to the Churches were written by Paul. (not one by Mattias)

CS1 · Mar 8, 2021

phil36 said:

Jesus did not use a lot to call the 12. Jesus did not use a lot to call Paul.

and FYI I never said Matthias was illegitimate,. Matthias was too an eyewitness of the Resurrected Lord. Paul had a specific calling and job that no other "A" postle was able to do.

out of all the Apostles who are mentioned where does Mattias stand as effectiveness and a witness?

Next to : Peter, John, Paul,

phil36 · Mar 8, 2021

crossnote said:

And nothing from most of the other Apostles either!! So I think your argument fails at the first hurdle.

tourist · Mar 8, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

The suspense was killing me.

phil36 · Mar 8, 2021

CS1 said:

Firstly I never said Jesus called all the original twelve by lots or Paul.

Secondly, Was Matthias an apostle.. you seem reticent to answer?

Thirdly, as with crossnotes post. Where do most of the 11 stand as effectiveness and a witness? Next to Peter, John, Paul? How many books did Thomas write etc?

And lastly, The only argument you have is that you say the 11 where wrong in casting lots and praying to God to guide them in it (Acts 1:24)..

Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen.

posthuman · Mar 8, 2021

phil36 said:

i take it he means GC as shorthand for 'great commission' -- what evangelical tradition calls Matthew 28:16-20

i just call it Matthew 28:16-20, personally. but it's a common jargon in the Church

posthuman · Mar 8, 2021

CS1 said:

i don't consider Matthias 'not an apostle' -- the scripture records a tradition of casting lots, including Jonah and the choosing of king Saul and the Urim & Thummim ((probably)), and Solomon even explicitly states it's decisions are from the LORD.

i agree also that it is not at all insignificant that the works and words of Matthias are not recorded in scripture, but Paul's are, in abundance. and it's a good point that neither are the works or words of several of the 11.

i don't know the answer to the OP question. i'm not going to pretend i do

FreeGrace2 · Mar 8, 2021

phil36 said:

The point is that Matthias was chosen by a human plan. The 11 and Paul were chosen by Christ Himself.

Did Jesus give the GC to Matthias? No.

Not at all. They were just trying to figure things out. They quoted Scripture to justify their actions. It appears they were trying to help God out.

Being a believer isn't proof of being an apostle.

Again, Jesus personally gave the GC to the 11 and Paul. Only them.

If Matthias' name will appear on the foundation of the New Jerusalem, why? What ever did he do? Scripture is totally silent on any action on his part.

You've missed the point. Which was about whose name will be on the foundation of the New Jerusalem. Rev 21:14 - The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I'm not charging anyone with anything. I'm proving that the honor of having one's name on one of the 12 layers of foundation would be Paul. For reasons already noted.

Paul was given the GC directly by Jesus, just as the 11 did. How is that "untenable"? It is the MOST tenable position of anyone.

What we know is that there will be 12 names on the foundation of the New Jerusalem. Matthias, chosen by the 11 casting lots and giving God the credit for THEIR actions, is NEVER mentioned again in the "Acts of the Apostles", the full title of the Book we call "Acts".

Even though Barnabas and Jesus' half-brother James are described as being apostles, neither of them received the GC from Jesus face to face, as the 11 and Paul did.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 8, 2021

phil36 said:

The Great Commission. It was given directly to the 11 and Paul by Jesus. They were the only ones. Even though the groups of disciples when Jesus ascended was about 120 people, according to Acts 1:15.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 8, 2021

crossnote said:
I'll go with Paul.
Well over half the Letters to the Churches were written by Paul. (not one by Mattias)

phil36 said:

crossnote has it exactly right!

The key is the Great Commission. Jesus gave the GC personally to the 11 and to Paul. Bingo. That's all the proof needed.

Jesus personally charged 12 men with tshe GC. And we'll see their names on the foundation of the New Jerusalem.

phil36 · Mar 8, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Hi freegrace,

Thanks for that I wasn't sure what you mean't by GC

.

As my posts above. I think you have failed to prove biblically that Matthias is not an Apostle. I think Scripture makes a clear case that Matthias was chosen as an Apostle and through the use of lots and prayer of the 11 (Acts 1:24) and the fulfillment of scripture (which the Holy Spirit inspired( Acts 1:20-21)).

First they prayed and then cast lots:

--And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, Acts 1:24

Numbers 26:55; 33:54.
Proverbs 16:33
Jonah 1:7
Acts 1:26

So,

1) Did God choose Matthias or not? (In answer to the Apostles prayer)
2) Did the 11 Apostles make a major mess in the fulfilment of scripture (Acts 1:20-21)
3) Was Matthias an Apostle

Who is the 12th apostle in Rev 21:14?

Live4Him

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