Who is the 12th apostle in Rev 21:14?

[Scribe]

Ummm...NO.

Acts chapter 1

[15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
[19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
[21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
[23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

According to Peter, Matthias "companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us", so there's the evidence that you claim doesn't exist.

As far as your dismissal of God in relation to Matthias' calling as an apostle is concerned, you couldn't possibly be more wrong.

For starters, God had foretold "in the book of Psalms" (vs . 20), as Peter so rightly noted, that somebody was going to need to take Judas' place or "his bishoprick let another take" (vs. 20).

This is what Peter was referring to:

"Let his days be few; and let another take his office." (Psalm 109:8)

GOD is the one who foreordained Judas' replacement, and GOD is the one to whom those gathered in the upper room prayed:

[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

With such being the case, who are you to allege that "Matthias' lot casting was a human thing, not a God thing"?

Furthermore, PAUL HIMSELF recognized Matthias as one of the twelve, when he said:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
[6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Jesus "was seen of Cephas" or Peter AFTER HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, AND AFTER JUDAS HAD DIED, AND "THEN OF THE TWELVE", and "the twelve" included Matthias.

Just for the record.

BINGO You won.

[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

Let's see if there is a concession. Don't hold your breath. No one ever concedes on CC.

 

[Scribe]

crossnote said:
I'll go with Paul.
Well over half the Letters to the Churches were written by Paul. (not one by Mattias)

crossnote has it exactly right!

The key is the Great Commission. Jesus gave the GC personally to the 11 and to Paul. Bingo. That's all the proof needed.

Jesus personally charged 12 men with tshe GC. And we'll see their names on the foundation of the New Jerusalem.

Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said...[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: . Therefore Paul stated that there were the 12 that saw Jesus and he recognized them as 12. You cannot dismiss that. Your speculation about Paul being one of the 12 when Paul himself states that other 12 were the 12 cannot be dismissed with your theory. Nice try but you must concede that Paul is correct and you were wrong.

 

[Scribe]

1 Cor 15 5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

By making this statement Paul declares that the 12 apostles include Matthias. Judas was already dead. Matthias was with them when they saw Jesus. Later the lot fell on Matthias. Paul knew about the choosing of Matthias. Paul considered him one of the 12. Not himself. Paul numbers himself outside of this 12 as one born out of due time.

Now that we have answered the question accurately with Matthias, it is important to remember that none of the specific names are as important as the whole unit.

it does not really matter what name is on the 12 foundation. Most of the apostles are never heard from again in scripture. The point is that the New Jerusalem is made up of the redeemed built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets and the 12 gates of the tribes of Israel speak of the fact that all are made one in Christ and inherit the covenant promises. It is a symbolic representation of theological redemption and inheritance promises fulfilled. It is a promise of what we will inherit who are adopted and made part of this redeemed people that God was working out from the beginning with the call of Abraham, the establishment of Israel, to bring forth the redeemer from the house of David and the Gospel preached by the Apostles to all nations so that they may be included.

 

[Live4Him]

BINGO You won.

[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

Let's see if there is a concession. Don't hold your breath. No one ever concedes on CC.

Someone actually thanked me earlier today for pointing out that they had quoted something way out of context.

I couldn't believe it.

We really should be thankful when someone corrects our bad theology or just points out our sin in general.

As David said:

"Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities." (Psalm 141:5)

 

[Guojing]

Someone actually thanked me earlier today for pointing out that they had quoted something way out of context.

I couldn't believe it.

We really should be thankful when someone corrects our bad theology or just points out our sin in general.

As David said:

"Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities." (Psalm 141:5)

I happen to agree with you here , Matthias is the 12th apostle, and he will be sitting on one of 12 thrones during the millennial reign as promised by Jesus.

I think one major reason why so many here want Paul to be the 12th apostle is because they hold the doctrine that Paul preached exactly the same gospel as the other 11.

For me, as you can already tell, Paul preached Jesus Christ according to the mystery (Romans 16:25), and not according to prophecy (Acts 3:21).

He was the first member of the Body of Christ (1 Timothy 1:16)

 

[Live4Him]

Most of the apostles are never heard from again in scripture.

Although it's true that most of them are never mentioned again by name, there are several references to them that we can glean some information from.

For example:

Acts chapter 2

[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[40] And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
[41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
[42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
[43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Apparently, "the rest of the apostles" were with Peter as he preached his sermon on the day of Pentecost.

Not only that, but the three thousand souls who were added that day "continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers...and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles".

There are several other references to the other apostles as well, so we can get a pretty decent idea of what they were up to after Christ's ascension back to heaven.

 

[MattforJesus]

Was Matthias present when Jesus commissioned the 11? No. There is no evidence of anyone other than the 11. So Matthias' lot casting was a human thing, not a God thing

Paul was not present either when Jesus commissioned the 11 disciples.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

It states that Matthias was numbered with the 11 apostles to take part in the same ministry and apostleship as the 11 disciples, and replace Judas.

 

[crossnote]

And nothing from most of the other Apostles either!! So I think your argument fails at the first hurdle.

It wasn't an 'argument', just an edookated hunch. There's no absolute proof either way, so I won't get deep into it.

 

[Guojing]

i agree also that it is not at all insignificant that the works and words of Matthias are not recorded in scripture, but Paul's are, in abundance. and it's a good point that neither are the works or words of several of the 11.

One of the rare occasions when I see "triple negation" in one sentence

 

[CS1]

Firstly I never said Jesus called all the original twelve by lots or Paul.

Secondly, Was Matthias an apostle.. you seem reticent to answer?


Thirdly, as with crossnotes post. Where do most of the 11 stand as effectiveness and a witness? Next to Peter, John, Paul? How many books did Thomas write etc?

And lastly, The only argument you have is that you say the 11 where wrong in casting lots and praying to God to guide them in it (Acts 1:24)..

Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen.

No, I did answer if you look at what you asked LOL. the contrast between Mattias and Paul is very clear.

Paul was called by Jesus Personally Matthias was not.

 

[CS1]

i don't consider Matthias 'not an apostle' -- the scripture records a tradition of casting lots, including Jonah and the choosing of king Saul and the Urim & Thummim ((probably)), and Solomon even explicitly states it's decisions are from the LORD.

i agree also that it is not at all insignificant that the works and words of Matthias are not recorded in scripture, but Paul's are, in abundance. and it's a good point that neither are the works or words of several of the 11.

i don't know the answer to the OP question. i'm not going to pretend i do

I want to be clear I never said Mattias was not an apostle, as Acts says Matthias was a witness of the resurrected Lord, if not, he would not been placed in the possibility of being chosen. BUT Paul the Lord Jesus came to Paul and called him personally.

 

[Edify]

WHERE was it written in scripture a person had to be called PERSONALLY by Christ in order to be an apostle?

WHO would be so foolish to argue with the Bible that Matthias wasn't the 12th apostle? It had to be of God or it wouldn't have made it into scripture.

Is it not the unadulterated Word of God?

WHO gave us the right to pick & choose our own favorite?

It is written, & so it is!!

 

[Live4Him]

WHERE was it written in scripture a person had to be called PERSONALLY by Christ in order to be an apostle?

WHO would be so foolish to argue with the Bible that Matthias wasn't the 12th apostle? It had to be of God or it wouldn't have made it into scripture.

Is it not the unadulterated Word of God?

WHO gave us the right to pick & choose our own favorite?

It is written, & so it is!!

WHO would be so foolish to argue with the Bible?

Unfortunately, quite a large number of people on this forum in general, and some on this very thread.

And so it goes...

 

[Edify]

And so it goes...

To me it says volumes when what is written in scripture no longer has absolute significance, & those who call themselves conservative christians are now as liberal as the liberals were 10-20 years ago.

I sure hope Jesus comes real soon, otherwise we won't know if many conservatives will go with Him.

 

[KingdomBrat]

Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said...[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: . Therefore Paul stated that there were the 12 that saw Jesus and he recognized them as 12. You cannot dismiss that. Your speculation about Paul being one of the 12 when Paul himself states that other 12 were the 12 cannot be dismissed with your theory. Nice try but you must concede that Paul is correct and you were wrong.

When was Matthias shown to be in the Presence of Christ?
Then of the 12 is [past tense]. Don't you understand word usage?

 

[KingdomBrat]

Paul, through the Holy Spirit, IDENTIFIES Peter as 1 of the 12.
They had to meet eventually. God revealed to Paul who Peter was, he was back then one of the 12.

 

[Scribe]

When was Matthias shown to be in the Presence of Christ?
Then of the 12 is [past tense]. Don't you understand word usage?

[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: Paul is saying that Jesus was seen of Peter on one occasion and then Jesus was seen by the 12 on another occasion. Paul is referring to 12 apostles seeing Jesus all at the same time. Judas was not there. Who was he talking about? Since it was not him (Paul) he must be including Matthias even though Matthias was not chosen by lot until the day of Pentecost he was at this meeting with Jesus Paul is referring to.

 

[JaumeJ]

Mattias was is prophesied as having been selected by faith in our Father's decision by lot.

 

[Live4Him]

When was Matthias shown to be in the Presence of Christ?

Right here:

Acts chapter 1

[15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
[19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
[21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
[23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Matthias was there "ALL THE TIME THAT THE LORD JESUS WENT IN AND OUT AMONG US", with the "us" being the apostles, "BEGINNING WITH THE BAPTISM OF JOHN, UNTO THAT SAME DAY THAT HE", Jesus, "WAS TAKEN UP FROM US", with the "us" being the other apostles.

Got it?

Then of the 12 is [past tense]. Don't you understand word usage?

Of course, it's past tense.

Again, Paul said:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

After Jesus rose from the dead, he was seen by Cephas or Simon Peter, and then of the twelve (including Matthias because Judas was already dead).

Here is the account:

Luke chapter 24

[33] And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
[34] Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
[35] And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
[36] And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

The "they" in verse 33 were the two men that Jesus walked with on the road to Emmaus after his resurrection from the dead.

When they returned to Jerusalem, they "found the eleven gathered together, AND THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM" (vs. 33).

Of course, as we've already established from what Peter said in Acts chapter 1, this "them that were with them" INCLUDED MATTHIAS.

Well, what were these two men told when they arrived in Jerusalem?

"The Lord is risen indeed, AND HATH APPEARED TO SIMON" (vs. 34) or Cephas, just like Paul said (I Cor. 15:5).

Now, we're looking for the time when Jesus also appeared to "the twelve" (I Cor. 15:5), with Matthias being the twelfth.

It's right here:

"And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them" (vs. 36), with the "them" being "the eleven gathered together, AND THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM", and Matthias was there "with them" (Acts 1:21-23).

Got it?

 

[Nehemiah6]

BUT Paul the Lord Jesus came to Paul and called him personally.

Not only that, but Paul was chosen from his mother's womb to be Christ's apostle to the Gentiles. This is not said of any other apostle (even though it may be applicable). And it is Paul who wrote over half of the New Testament (the Word of God), and it is Peter who testified that all of Paul's epistles were Scripture. In view of this anyone contending for the inclusion of Matthias is simply ignoring the facts.

Also when Paul speaks of the resurrected Christ having been seen of "the twelve" he is using that term metaphorically in the absence of Judas Iscariot. It is possible that he may be including Matthias, but that is immaterial. The twelve apostles of the Lamb must of necessity include Paul.