Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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No where in church history is this type of thing taught. Not until in the 1800s when Darby began teaching it. This is a big problem, that the entire church for until the 1800s were just wrong. And yes we have the sermons, confessions, letters written, and none of this dispensationalist twattle was ever written about, until John Darby, which kind of makes me think of, Charles Russell, Charles Parham, Charles Finney, Joseph Smith, and Ellen White. They all just decided to reinvent the wheel and we see the results to this day. Millions of people lead way off track.
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We were led off track 2,000 years ago by Constantine who turned relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit who was sent to guide us in all truth, Christianity became "religion" based on the Roman model of government where the top person is venerated and people are to jump through hoops of rituals and practices to make themselves right with God, when we know that Jesus paid it all on the cross.
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My friend I have seen nothing whatsoever to convince me in the least.......that there is an alternative to a pre-trib rapture. The case is so overwhelming that it is quite frankly breathtaking in terms of boilerplate doctrine.
Tragically nobody understands the patterns. The Old Testament patterns vs the book of Revelation. The fact that chapter 6 and beyond is the fulfillment of the OT Day of the Lord.
The fact that there is not one scrap or scintilla of textual evidence that the Church is anywhere beyond chapter 5.
The fact that the Church is nowhere alluded to in Matthew 24 Mark 13 or Luke 21.
For the simple reason that the Day of the Lord does not affect the Church in the least.
The complete breakdown of the understanding of the difference between the Day of Jesus Christ (a mystery revealed and FULLY EXPLAINED by Paul in Ephesians ch 3) and the Day of the Lord.
The unequivocal reality that the Day of Jesus Christ (the Day of Grace) has a distinct beginning (Pentecost) and a distinct ending (the Rapture).
The woeful misunderstanding of how the Jewish wedding ceremony parallels the Church to perfection. A parallelism that Jesus Himself testifies to again and again and again and Paul amplifies and explains.
I can say more so much more but this is impossible on a mere message board.
In my opinion the doctrine of the Rapture is one of the most substantially supportable in all of the Bible. I hear the same old worn out arguments to the contrary.....all of which are rooted in ignorance deception and denial.
Is far as I'm concerned the doctrine of the pre-trib Rapture is a wrap. Done and done with no wiggle room. No alternative. No contender. In fact his time goes on I become even more resolute because the alternative arguments that I hear are so pathetic.
And my assessment has absolutely nothing to do with Darby or anybody else.
Tragically nobody understands the patterns. The Old Testament patterns vs the book of Revelation. The fact that chapter 6 and beyond is the fulfillment of the OT Day of the Lord.
The fact that there is not one scrap or scintilla of textual evidence that the Church is anywhere beyond chapter 5.
The fact that the Church is nowhere alluded to in Matthew 24 Mark 13 or Luke 21.
For the simple reason that the Day of the Lord does not affect the Church in the least.
The complete breakdown of the understanding of the difference between the Day of Jesus Christ (a mystery revealed and FULLY EXPLAINED by Paul in Ephesians ch 3) and the Day of the Lord.
The unequivocal reality that the Day of Jesus Christ (the Day of Grace) has a distinct beginning (Pentecost) and a distinct ending (the Rapture).
The woeful misunderstanding of how the Jewish wedding ceremony parallels the Church to perfection. A parallelism that Jesus Himself testifies to again and again and again and Paul amplifies and explains.
I can say more so much more but this is impossible on a mere message board.
In my opinion the doctrine of the Rapture is one of the most substantially supportable in all of the Bible. I hear the same old worn out arguments to the contrary.....all of which are rooted in ignorance deception and denial.
Is far as I'm concerned the doctrine of the pre-trib Rapture is a wrap. Done and done with no wiggle room. No alternative. No contender. In fact his time goes on I become even more resolute because the alternative arguments that I hear are so pathetic.
And my assessment has absolutely nothing to do with Darby or anybody else.
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It may well be that the type of treading the grapes is ALWAYS a reference to judgment.
Isa 63:1-6
Who is this that is come from Edom, with red garments from Bosor? thus fair in his apparel, with mighty strength? I speak of righteousness and saving judgment.
Wherefore are thy garments red, and thy raiment as if fresh from a trodden winepress?
I am full of trodden grape, and of the nations there is not a man with me; and I trampled them in my fury, and dashed them to pieces as earth, and brought down their blood to the earth.
For the day of recompence has come upon them, and the year of redemption is at hand.
And I looked, and there was no helper; and I observed, and none upheld: therefore my arm delivered them, and mine anger drew nigh.
And I trampled them in mine anger, and brought down their blood to the earth.
Isa 63:1-6
Who is this that is come from Edom, with red garments from Bosor? thus fair in his apparel, with mighty strength? I speak of righteousness and saving judgment.
Wherefore are thy garments red, and thy raiment as if fresh from a trodden winepress?
I am full of trodden grape, and of the nations there is not a man with me; and I trampled them in my fury, and dashed them to pieces as earth, and brought down their blood to the earth.
For the day of recompence has come upon them, and the year of redemption is at hand.
And I looked, and there was no helper; and I observed, and none upheld: therefore my arm delivered them, and mine anger drew nigh.
And I trampled them in mine anger, and brought down their blood to the earth.
I will explain this:
Daniel ch 9......the 70th week.....pertains only to Israel. A fact which the book of Revelation makes clear. There are only Jews and gentiles on the earth beyond ch 5. Nobody can deny this.
Furthermore the commission to preach is now bestowed upon Israelites. Again no one can deny this. That's what the text says and that's what the text supports.
The Church is in heaven chapters 4 and 5. They are the kings and priests that John describes (of himself....and all Christians) in chapter 1.
Daniel ch 9......the 70th week.....pertains only to Israel. A fact which the book of Revelation makes clear. There are only Jews and gentiles on the earth beyond ch 5. Nobody can deny this.
Furthermore the commission to preach is now bestowed upon Israelites. Again no one can deny this. That's what the text says and that's what the text supports.
The Church is in heaven chapters 4 and 5. They are the kings and priests that John describes (of himself....and all Christians) in chapter 1.
Biblically speaking, "the GREAT tribulation" consists only of the SECOND HALF (i.e. 3.5 yrs).
The Tribulation in its ENTIRETY *starts* back at the FIRST SEAL, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (and Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 makes clear the the "future" aspect of the Book is describing "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"), i.e. the 7-yr trib yrs.
So yes, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE," it will be similar to THESE PASSAGES:
Habakkuk 1 -
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans [/Babylonians], that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
[...]
12b [...] O LORD, thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians] for judgment [i.e. to execute judgment]; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians] for correction.
Lamentations 2 -
3 He hath cut off in his fierce anger [LXX - orge G3709] all the horn of Israel:
he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [i.e. lifting His RESTRAINT; see 2Th2:[7b-]8a ],
and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire [see 2Th1:8 "in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON" (and not merely for a split-second, nor a mere "24-hr day"
)],
which devoureth round about.
4 He hath bent his bow like an enemy:
he stood [see Rev5:6 when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13] with his right hand as an adversary,
and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion:
he poured out his fury [LXX - thymos / thumos G2372] like fire.
The Tribulation in its ENTIRETY *starts* back at the FIRST SEAL, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (and Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 makes clear the the "future" aspect of the Book is describing "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"), i.e. the 7-yr trib yrs.
So yes, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE," it will be similar to THESE PASSAGES:
Habakkuk 1 -
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans [/Babylonians], that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
[...]
12b [...] O LORD, thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians] for judgment [i.e. to execute judgment]; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians] for correction.
Lamentations 2 -
3 He hath cut off in his fierce anger [LXX - orge G3709] all the horn of Israel:
he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [i.e. lifting His RESTRAINT; see 2Th2:[7b-]8a ],
and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire [see 2Th1:8 "in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON" (and not merely for a split-second, nor a mere "24-hr day"
)],which devoureth round about.
4 He hath bent his bow like an enemy:
he stood [see Rev5:6 when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13] with his right hand as an adversary,
and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion:
he poured out his fury [LXX - thymos / thumos G2372] like fire.
You are way off because billions are beheaded right away in the trib.
Then to further diminish your position, those marters are said to come from GREAT TRIBULATION.
IOW the entire 7 years is great tribulation
There may be three "raptures" or removal of His Own before it is all done, and there is supporting scripture for each, we know the love of God is so great that He would ask His only begotten Son to live His sinless life and die for our sin and He did so, and that love is so great were any one of us the only person on earth He would have done this.
So often we think it is "this or that" when in His complete full knowledge it is "both and more".
No wonder He is VERY clear we are not to lean on our own understanding and in ALL our ways acknowledge Him that He may make our path straight.
I see very little if any of that in this thread.
best wishes
So often we think it is "this or that" when in His complete full knowledge it is "both and more".
No wonder He is VERY clear we are not to lean on our own understanding and in ALL our ways acknowledge Him that He may make our path straight.
I see very little if any of that in this thread.
best wishes
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Gary I believe you deny that the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation 11, are Literal prophets returned, that will wear literal sackcloth, that will bring literal plagues, upon a literal world, that will have literal bodies that die, and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem?
Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Sorry, the beast 42 months and two witnesses 1260 days are (Parallel) times of the exact same 3.5 year tribulation
The book of Revelation is taught in (Parallel) teachings of same events, not chronological as dispensationalism falsely teaches
As God's words "Clearly Teach" below, the (Two Witnesses) are present on earth before the beast, until the final (Hours) of earth's existence
(Fact) When the two Witnesses are raised to heaven as the world watches, the great earthquake, then the 3rd woe comes (QUICKLY) in the 7th Trump (It Is Finished)
Revelation 11:7-15KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The book of Revelation is taught in (Parallel) teachings of same events, not chronological as dispensationalism falsely teaches
As God's words "Clearly Teach" below, the (Two Witnesses) are present on earth before the beast, until the final (Hours) of earth's existence
(Fact) When the two Witnesses are raised to heaven as the world watches, the great earthquake, then the 3rd woe comes (QUICKLY) in the 7th Trump (It Is Finished)
Revelation 11:7-15KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
God's In Charge, Not The Antichrist
A Complete Remake Of Moses/Aaron Against Pharaoh Of Egypt, Isaiah 26:20-21 Below, Gods Protection Of The Church, During The Final Hour Of Earths Temptation, Enter The Dwelling And Shut The Door, Just Like The Passover In Egypt "Read And Heed"!
Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
The (Two Witnesses) Rule During The Tribulation, Representing Jesus Christ On Earth, Judgement In Plagues, The Warm Up!
Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?
Revelation 14:9-12KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below, A Remake Of Moses/Aaron Against Pharaoh Of Egypt!
Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below, Torment Five Months, Unable To Die, Death Flees?
Revelation 9:1-6KJV
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
A Complete Remake Of Moses/Aaron Against Pharaoh Of Egypt, Isaiah 26:20-21 Below, Gods Protection Of The Church, During The Final Hour Of Earths Temptation, Enter The Dwelling And Shut The Door, Just Like The Passover In Egypt "Read And Heed"!
Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
The (Two Witnesses) Rule During The Tribulation, Representing Jesus Christ On Earth, Judgement In Plagues, The Warm Up!
Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?
Revelation 14:9-12KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below, A Remake Of Moses/Aaron Against Pharaoh Of Egypt!
Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below, Torment Five Months, Unable To Die, Death Flees?
Revelation 9:1-6KJV
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.