Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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cv5

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Well, the first harvest is neutral, i.e. it doesn't infer whether it is good or bad. Where as the harvest of the grapes is obvious. That said, you could very well be right though. If the grape harvest represents all of the wicked on the earth, then what would the first harvest represent, since the grape harvest covers all of the wicked?

It seems revealing that the first harvest is silent in opposition to the second harvest of the grapes.
"It seems revealing that the first harvest is silent in opposition to the second harvest of the grapes."

Absolutely agree. Quite frankly I tend toward the first being a good harvest. Barely. Certainly could go either way though.
 

ewq1938

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Oh Sure, Looks Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below "NOT"!
Did you read it? Looks like he is allowed to be a ruler:

"power was given unto him to continue forty and two months"

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them"

"power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

The 2W have some power which is mainly in self defense but men can hurt them so they are not the "rulers" during the GT and what power they did have will be lost near the end.
 

Truth7t7

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Did you read it? Looks like he is allowed to be a ruler:

"power was given unto him to continue forty and two months"

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them"

"power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

The 2W have some power which is mainly in self defense but men can hurt them so they are not the "rulers" during the GT and what power they did have will be lost near the end.
The (Two Witnesses) Rule During The Tribulation, Representing Jesus Christ On Earth, Judgement In Plagues, The Warm Up!

Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?

Revelation 14:9-12KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?

Revelation 9:1-6KJV
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 

ewq1938

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[QUOTE="Truth7t7, post: 4480637, member: 297424"

Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?[/QUOTE]

The verses I posted show he is ruling most of the world. He can even have the 2w hurt, will kill the saints and ultimately one of his last acts is to kill the two prophets:

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
 

Truth7t7

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I agree that the Two Witnesses are commissioned in the role of OT judgment prophets. Likely Moses and Elijah resurrected. Just as the Israelites in Egypt were supernaturally protected, so shall be God's 144,000 sealed commandos.

The parallel types are inescapable. And absolutely valid. No doubt the 144,000 will be fearless.

Your error and continual stumbling is your notion that the Church is around during the GT. It is not.....it has been raptured. I mean there is just no doubt about the fact that the Church has been raptured. It's gone it's outta here.

What you fail to comprehend is the inevitable fact that the Tribulation/GT is Jewish Jewish Jewish. Two Witnesses (Moses and Elijah.....ISRAELITES) 144,000 ISRAELITES and judgment preaching!

Just listen to the proclamations of the flying angels in Rev 14. This is no longer the Gospel of Grace! This is the preaching of the Fear of God and judgment and warning of doom.
This is John the Baptist and Old Testament prophet style preaching of fearful imminent judgment.


This is the preaching that is typical of the Tribulation and GT. The Church age is over. The age of Grace is finished. There are no Christian preachers.......at all. Find them if you can. That task now falls to Israelites.

The Tribulation is the age of judgment my friend. It is the great and terrible Day of the Lord. Yes there are people who are being saved during this time. But you better believe that this is a completely different dispensation compared to the Church Age.
A Pre-Trib Rapture isnt found in scripture, its was invented by John N. Darby and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible.

The Church Will Be Present On Earth During The Tribulation, To Witness The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ, Just As Luke Below Writes

Luke 21:25-28KJV

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

cv5

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A Pre-Trib Rapture isnt found in scripture, its was invented by John N. Darby and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible.

The Church Will Be Present On Earth During The Tribulation, To Witness The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ, Just As Luke Below Writes

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
I know what you're selling but I'm not buying it buddy. I've got all this end time business pretty well sorted out. It took about 25 years.
 

ewq1938

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A Pre-Trib Rapture isnt found in scripture, its was invented by John N. Darby and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible.


It existed long before those guys. They just popularized it. Even Paul addressed that two important things had to happen before the second coming could take place so that is the earliest teaching against the whole "second coming can happen at any time" type of doctrine.
 

Truth7t7

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The verses I posted show he is ruling most of the world. He can even have the 2w hurt, will kill the saints and ultimately one of his last acts is to kill the two prophets:

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Read It Again, God's In Charge, Not The Antichrist :)

The (Two Witnesses) Rule During The Tribulation, Representing Jesus Christ On Earth, Judgement In Plagues, The Warm Up!

Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?

Revelation 14:9-12KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?

Revelation 9:1-6KJV
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 

ewq1938

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Read It Again, God's In Charge, Not The Antichrist :)
Everyone knows God is ultimately in charge but God allows the AC to rule. The 2W are not ruling during the Great Tribulation despite the great amount of power they have for awhile.
 

Truth7t7

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Yes, that is correct. Here is the scripture:

Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of many waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders."

The 144,000 would have to be in heaven in order to sing a new song before the throne, the four living beings and the elders. Would you not agree?

The Mount Zion that the Lamb and the 144,000 are standing on, I believe is speaking of the heavenly Mount Zion, the New Jerusalem, which is referred to in Hebrews:

"Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem."

In any case, the 144,000 are singing a song before the throne, which would demonstrate that at that time they will already have be in heaven. They were sealed while they were still on the earth in Rev.7 and in Rev.14 it shows them before the throne singing a new song that only they can learn.

In addition and as I have posted many other times, I believe that the Male Child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who are caught up to God and His throne, which is why we see them in Rev.14 as already in heaven and which is the same word 'harpazo' used to describe the living church being caught up.



The tribulation saints are resurrected after Jesus returns to the earth, as described in Rev.20:4-6:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

The first harvest in Rev.14 takes place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Regarding the harvest that follows of the grapes, I agree that it is a harvest of the wicked, as denoted by them being thrown into the winepress of God's wrath and the blood being as high as the horses bridle.

So, the question still remains with me, who is that first group being harvested prior to the grapes being gathered?

I've heard all the assumptions, but I need to know the answer myself from scripture in order to make my own conclusion.
His Name And His Fathers Name?

You Dont Present What You Are Quoting, It Appears To Be (Add To Gods Words), A Child's Paraphrase

Revelation 14:1-3KJV
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 22:18-19KJV
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 

GaryA

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Great Tribulation ends; Two Witnesses begin their testimony

Trumpets 1-4

Trumpet 5 - bottomless pit opened

Trumpet 6

Witnesses Killed by "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit"

Witnesses Raised

Heaven / Temple Opened

JESUS

Trumpet 7

Resurrection & Rapture

Pre-Wrath

Vials 1-6

Armageddon

Vial 7

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Source: http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html
 

ewq1938

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Great Tribulation ends; Two Witnesses begin their testimony
Not even close. The two prophets are killed 3.5 days before the Great Tribulation ends. The 2W began at the same or close start of the Great Tribulation. The 42 months of the beast is basically concurrent to the 1260 days of the 2W.
 

GaryA

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Not even close. The two prophets are killed 3.5 days before the Great Tribulation ends. The 2W began at the same or close start of the Great Tribulation. The 42 months of the beast is basically concurrent to the 1260 days of the 2W.
Please see post #235 in this thread.
 

GaryA

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The two prophets are killed 3.5 days before the Great Tribulation ends.
The two prophets are killed 3.5 days before Christ "shows up"; however, the end of the Great Tribulation is aligned with "when the Two Witnesses show up"...
 

ewq1938

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The two prophets are killed 3.5 days before Christ "shows up"; however, the end of the Great Tribulation is aligned with "when the Two Witnesses show up"...
They show up at the beginning of the Great Tribulation not at the end. They resurrect the day the Great Tribulation ends.
 

GaryA

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They show up at the beginning of the Great Tribulation not at the end. They resurrect the day the Great Tribulation ends.
The beginning of the Great Tribulation was ~70 A.D.; the end of it is in our future.

The worst is yet to come.

Revelation 13:1-10 is talking about the Dark Ages.

The "souls under the altar" in Revelation 6:9 are the martyrs from that 'era'. The 'fellowservants' in Revelation 6:11 'that should be killed as they were" are modern-era martyrs beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

All of these martyrs are 'tribulation saints'.