Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Truth7t7]

Yes, I know that. But there are going people who don't take the mark. What do you think is going to happen to them, here on earth? I mean scripture pretty much makes it clear. They will suffer on this earth, right.

Once Again And Again, The (Two Witnesses) are in control of the tribulation, bringing all plagues as Often as they will, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

How many plagues fell upon the Hebrews (None)

How many Hebrewswere running scared of Pharaoh's death squads (None)

You elevate the Antichrist and False prophet above the (Two Witnesses) as if they dont exist, sad

(Smite The Earth With All Plagues, As Often As The Will)

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

 

[1ofthem]

Once Again And Again, The (Two Witnesses) are in control of the tribulation, bringing all plagues as Often as the my will, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

How many plagues fell upon the Hebrews (None)

You elevate the Antichrist and False prophet above the (Two Witnesses) as if they dont exist, sad

What I am not elevating the Antichrist or False prophet above anyone??? Really just trying to understand here. How is it that the beast makes war with them and kills them? Not elevating the beast above them, but there are going to be overcome and killed aren't they?

Revelations 11
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also [c]our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations [d]will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Like I said before though, the plagues from God and the wrath of God will not fall on Christians. But the wrath of the enemy most likely will. Even the two prophets will be killed, if I'm reading the scriptures, right.

 

[Truth7t7]

What I am not elevating the Antichrist or False prophet above anyone??? Really just trying to understand here. How is it that the beast makes war with them and kills them? Not elevating the beast above them, but there are going to be overcome and killed aren't they?

Revelations 11
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also [c]our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations [d]will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Like I said before though, the plagues from God and the wrath of God will not fall on Christians. But the wrath of the enemy most likely will. Even the two prophets will be killed, if I'm reading the scriptures, right.

When the two witnesses finish their testimony, thay are killed,lay in the street 3.5 days, as the world has their last celebration

They are called to heaven in the sight of the world, in the (Same Hour) the great earthquake,the second woe is past, and the third comes quickly in the second coming, end of this world

Yes these two witnesses will be the focal point, all the way to the (End)

You will closely note the two Witnesses tormented the wicked world, they rule the 3.5 year tribulation, not the Antichrist

Revelation 11:3-15KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[KingdomBrat]

It say the innumerable number come out of the great tribulation

That still is not a timeline, just what will happen.

 

[cv5]

I'm not sure about putting it into the hands of other men like Chuck Missler or MacArthur. A lot of it, can all boil down to just someone's personal opinion of scripture. I will look into what they have to say, though, to see if it matches with scripture or not.

I have to tell you my friend I been around the block a few times. Nobody and I mean nobody knows the book of Revelation better than Chuck Missler.

I definitely do not agree with some of his other views. For example he completely blew it on the book of Hebrews. That exegesis was in the weeds badly. He has another view (which is actually the view of his wife I'm afraid) which I don't want to get into here which I completely disagree with. The equidistant letter Bible codes business is debunked. However there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the Bible IS written in various codes and patterns.......without a doubt.

MacArthur's end time eschatology is solid as well. Again I do not agree with some of MacArthur's views for example his view that all Christians are some kind of "slaves". We are NOT slaves we are now exalted to the position of brethren. Though in our pilgrimage here we are servants the same way Jesus was a servant. Furthermore we are willing servants....Doulos.

But I have to tell you that you can't possibly get better start to understanding of the book of Revelation than from Chuck Missler.

These videos are getting hard to find so you better snag this YouTube channel you might as well start today. As for me I'm going through this entire Revelation series again. I am about halfway through. Breathtaking stuff let me tell you....

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdv0MKN0wTj09fCGheEI5Nw/videos

 

[1ofthem]

I have to tell you my friend I been around the block a few times. Nobody and I mean nobody knows the book of Revelation better than Chuck Missler.

I definitely do not agree with some of his other views. For example he completely blew it on the book of Hebrews. That exegesis was in the weeds badly. He has another view (which is actually the view of his wife I'm afraid) which I don't want to get into here which I completely disagree with. The equidistant letter Bible codes business is debunked. However there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the Bible IS written in various codes and patterns.......without a doubt.

MacArthur's end time eschatology is solid as well. Again I do not agree with some of MacArthur's views for example his view that all Christians are some kind of "slaves". We are NOT slaves we are now exalted to the position of brethren. Though in our pilgrimage here we are servants the same way Jesus was a servant. Furthermore we are willing servants....Doulos.

But I have to tell you that you can't possibly get better start to understanding of the book of Revelation than from Chuck Missler.

These videos are getting hard to find so you better snag this YouTube channel you might as well start today. As for me I'm going through this entire Revelation series again. I am about halfway through. Breathtaking stuff let me tell you....

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdv0MKN0wTj09fCGheEI5Nw/videos

I will check it out, thanks.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

To be clear, I am not saying that a Christian will suffer any of the plagues or the wrath of God being poured out.

That is completely different than suffering at the hands of the enemy; beast, false prophet, anti-christ, etc.

It concerns me that that millions of Christians aren't being spiritually prepared for endurance because they are being falsely promised early escape. Will they think God has abandoned them because teachers ignored prophetic warnings?

Perish the thought.

We are advised in scripture we will enter a unique, short time of persecution by the enemy that calls for patient endurance on our part.
I don't think these warnings can be ignored or dismissed by man-made doctrine.

Dan 7:25 Rev 12:17 Rev 13:7-10 Rev 14:12

 

[1ofthem]

It concerns me that that millions of Christians aren't being spiritually prepared for endurance because they are being falsely promised early escape. Will they think God has abandoned them because teachers ignored prophetic warnings?

Perish the thought.

We are advised in scripture we will enter a unique, short time of persecution by the enemy that calls for patient endurance on our part.
I don't think these warnings can be ignored or dismissed by man-made doctrine.

Dan 7:25 Rev 12:17 Rev 13:7-10 Rev 14:12

Yes, I agree. That is my views on it as well. Thanks for the scriptures.

 

[cv5]

Once Again And Again, The (Two Witnesses) are in control of the tribulation, bringing all plagues as Often as they will, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

How many plagues fell upon the Hebrews (None)

How many Hebrewswere running scared of Pharaoh's death squads (None)

You elevate the Antichrist and False prophet above the (Two Witnesses) as if they dont exist, sad

(Smite The Earth With All Plagues, As Often As The Will)

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The only people supernaturally protected (from an untimely death) from these plagues are the SEALED 144,000 Israelite PREACHERS. Just as Noah and his family were saved through the flood (tribulation) so these will be saved through the end time tribulation. But certainly not without some trauma.

Everyone else is going to suffer these earthy judgements....including the tribulation saints in my opinion. Yes they will be martyred primarily but many will probably die in the devastating judgments along with the unsaved. But they will die believers and be counted among the tribulation saints. This is speculation on my part but my point is that the tribulation saints are by no means protected. But they are being NUMBERED......in the Lambs book of life.

 

[pottersclay]

As I have said before and say again if you study the appointed times you will understand revelation more clearly.
Revelation is mostly about the redemption of Israel.
Jesus second coming is to redeem Israel and to establish his reign on earth for 1000 yrs. Which fulfills biblical prophecy.
The rapture is also seen in the appointed times.

 

[cv5]

It concerns me that that millions of Christians aren't being spiritually prepared for endurance because they are being falsely promised early escape. Will they think God has abandoned them because teachers ignored prophetic warnings?

Perish the thought.

We are advised in scripture we will enter a unique, short time of persecution by the enemy that calls for patient endurance on our part.
I don't think these warnings can be ignored or dismissed by man-made doctrine.

Dan 7:25 Rev 12:17 Rev 13:7-10 Rev 14:12

I would recommend you take comfort in the Rapture which is accorded to us the Church.

I would also commend you to the advice and tutelage of TheDivineWatermark. The finest scholar on Christian Chat in my opinion. Everyone else pales in comparison I have to say lol. It just so happens that he and I agree on ALMOST every single point so far. We definitely agree on end time eschatology perfectly. Whoever this person is.........he's my boss that's for sure.

The only thing I've ever disagreed with from this person is our differing position on the sons of god/daughters of men (Genesis 6 - Jude - 1st&2nd Peter.....that's right 4 different places). In 20 years I have seen no substantial evidence whatsoever that these sons of god are actually human sons of Seth. On the contrary the more I learn the more resolute I am in my stance that these are definitely rebellious scheming fallen angels giving birth to inhuman offspring.

 

[cv5]

There will be no pre-trib rapture as you claim, a false teaching of John N. Darby, and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible

The Church will be present upon earth to witness the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

My friend I have to tell you I really do like you. I enjoy chatting with you here on this forum.
I appreciate your company.

But I've never in my entire life encountered someone who had such a ruinous messed-up end time eschatology. It's so bad that I don't know where to start even to find common ground.

Anyhoo.......carry on.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Because they immediately follow first fruit Jews.
They are the only group gathered by Jesus sitting on a cloud
They are , I believe, what was written at Jesus first miracle " you saved the best for last"
Also Romans speaks of the Jew eventually saved.,
Another thing is that in Ruth, Naomi accompanies Ruth and Boaz into the redemption and dwelling

It has to be the gathering of the Jews.
Imo....of course

Yeah, but the problem is, that there is nothing in the context that connects that first harvest with any group. It comes across as neutral, i.e. neither a good or bad harvest. It is just an assumption to apply that harvest to the Jews. I'm not saying that it couldn't be correct, because that is my best guess as well. I'm just saying that there is no group specifically linked to who are being harvested.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Because they immediately follow first fruit Jews.
They are the only group gathered by Jesus sitting on a cloud
They are , I believe, what was written at Jesus first miracle " you saved the best for last"
Also Romans speaks of the Jew eventually saved.,
Another thing is that in Ruth, Naomi accompanies Ruth and Boaz into the redemption and dwelling

It has to be the gathering of the Jews.
Imo....of course

Hello again, Absolutely!

Regarding this, I just wanted to present some information:

In Revelation 14:1-4, First we have the mention of the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel who were sealed in Chapter 7:1-8. Now you claim that the harvest is regarding this group. However, in between the information of the 144,000 and the harvest of verse 15-16, there is the information regarding the three angels, one announcing the everlasting gospel to all of the inhabitants of the earth. Then you have the second angel announcing Babylon the Great's fate. And then the third angel warning the inhabitants about the consequences for those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. My point being is that, the harvest information does not immediately follow the information regarding the 144,000. And here is another issue:

The scripture states that the 144,000 are with the Lamb standing on Mount Zion. It also states in verse 3 that "they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders," which would show that they have already been redeemed and are already in heaven. Where in verse 15-16 there is a harvest taking place. To have the 144,000 shown to already be in heaven and then the harvest to follow would not make sense, because the 144,000 are already in heaven. They would have to be, in order to sing a new song before the throne.

In further support of this, I believe that the 'Mount Zion' that the Lamb and the 144,000 are standing on, is figurative of the heavenly Mount Zion, the New Jerusalem, which is referred to in Hebrews 12:22. In addition, the fact that the 144,000 already have the Lamb's and the Father's name written on their foreheads demonstrates that they have already been redeemed and are in their immortal and glorified bodies.

So the question is, since the 144,000 are already shown to be in heaven, standing with the Lamb on the heavenly Mount Zion, how can that harvest that follows in verse 15-16 be referring to the 144,000? This is just my process of elimination.

Looking forward to your response regarding this.

 

[GaryA]

In 'event' terms, the two have nothing in common - they do not overlap, and actually have 3.5 years of time between them - which is the time of the Two Witnesses and the Trumpet events - which the Two Witnesses [actually] bring about by their prophecy and testimony.

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What 'event' occurs 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days'?

Is it this?

No - it is this.

Between 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days' in verse 29 and 'And then' in verse 30 is a 3.5-year span of time.

It is the time of the Two Witnesses.

It is the time of the Trumpet events.

The Two Witnesses cause the Trumpet events.

Compare scripture with scripture:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

 

[ewq1938]

God willing you're going to reach the conclusion that believers in this Church age are not appointed to wrath.

And that is not a biblical statement. Believers are promised to receive wrath:

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That war is known as the Great Tribulation where believers will receive the wrath mentioned above.

 

[GaryA]

Nobody and I mean nobody knows the book of Revelation better than Chuck Missler.

No.

But I have to tell you that you can't possibly get better start to understanding of the book of Revelation than from Chuck Missler.

No.

 

[ewq1938]

The PRE-TRIB Rapture is boilerplate doctrine. Extremely well represented and supported by Scripture.

Pre-trib rapture is not in the bible at all. It is a false and man made doctrine. Paul placed the rapture just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ which follows the second coming and Christ said the second coming comes immediately after the Great Tribulation has ended. That leaves the only timing of the rapture as post-trib.

 

[ewq1938]

Arguably, the last Day of the Day of Jesus Christ is......the Rapture event.

The Church has a beginning (Pentecost) and an ending (Rapture).

The church began before Pentecost and it doesn't end at the Rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

Where does Bill Gates star in this movie?

He writes a computer operating system called "Holes in the walls"