Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?
- Thread starter BenjaminN
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9 The daughters of kings are among your honored women;
the queen stands at your right hand,
adorned with the gold of Ophir.
10 Listen, O daughter! Consider and incline your ear:
Forget your people and your father’s house,
11 and the king will desire your beauty;
bow to him, for he is your lord.
12 The Daughter of Tyre will come with a gift;
men of wealth will seek your favor.
13 All glorious is the princess in her chamber;
her gown is embroidered with gold.
14 In colorful garments she is led to the king;
her virgin companions are brought before you.
15 They are led in with joy and gladness;
they enter the palace of the king.
16 Your sons will succeed your fathers;
you will make them princes throughout the land.
17 I will commemorate your name through all generations;
therefore the nations will praise you forever and ever.
Here's what Gaebelein has to say on this section (with which I tend to agree):
"[...] He receives the kingdom. With Him is the queen at His right hand in gold of Ophir, the Lamb’s wife, to share His rule and reign with Him. The King’s daughter is Israel, now all glorious within, born again, with garments of wrought gold, the symbol of glory. Her companions are nations now brought to the King. From henceforth the Name, which is above every other name, will be remembered and His people will praise Him forever and ever."
[end quoting Gaebelein; bold, underline, and color mine]
I don't see the word "chamber"... I do see "and the door was shut" (meaning [basically], that no one else will ENTER)...
I believe this corresponds with (such passages as the following):
Luke 13 -
The Narrow Door
(Matthew 7:13-14)
22 And He was going through by towns and villages, teaching and making progress toward Jerusalem. 23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, if those being saved are few?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in through the narrow door; for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and will not be able. 25 From the time the master of the house shall have risen up and shall have shut the door, then you shall begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’
And he answering, will say to you, ‘I do not know from where you are.’
26 Then will you begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
27 And he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know from where you are; depart from me, all you workers of unrighteousness.’
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth [<--see also Matt24:51] when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you are being cast out. 29 And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline [G347 - around a table / at the MEAL] in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”
[see these two underlined sentences/phrases also in Matt22:13-14 (which passage [esp vv.9-14] speaks of the "INVITATION" of the "guests [plural]" to the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" per v.2, which is on the earth
i.e. the EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there] (see G347 also in Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]--not speaking of what msg we are sending forth today/in this present age, which instead pertains to asking ppl to be a part of the MARRIAGE [now, to be clear, either way, believers are "saved/saints," to be sure, it just depends on "WHEN" they come to faith [whether NOW (BEFORE "our Rapture") or THEN (FOLLOWING "our Rapture, in the TRIB YRS])]
Again, Jesus is NOT coming, at that point, to MARRY 10 or even 5 VirginS [PLURAL]... He will be coming at that point as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom (WITH His "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" of whom "the MARRIAGE" itself [having taken place IN HEAVEN] pertains, alone!) There is NO "bride/wife" mentioned in any of the passages in the gospels (pertaining to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" Subject or "the MEAL [G347]... but OTHERS who will also be involved AT THAT POINT [His "RETURN" to the earth, where THEY are located--never having "lifted off" the earth!--these are not "Rapture" CONTEXTS])
ALL "There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth [<--see also Matt24:51]" passages speak of those who WILL NOT ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [-age], upon His "RETURN" to the earth
I believe this corresponds with (such passages as the following):
Luke 13 -
The Narrow Door
(Matthew 7:13-14)
22 And He was going through by towns and villages, teaching and making progress toward Jerusalem. 23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, if those being saved are few?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in through the narrow door; for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and will not be able. 25 From the time the master of the house shall have risen up and shall have shut the door, then you shall begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’
And he answering, will say to you, ‘I do not know from where you are.’
26 Then will you begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
27 And he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know from where you are; depart from me, all you workers of unrighteousness.’
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth [<--see also Matt24:51] when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you are being cast out. 29 And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline [G347 - around a table / at the MEAL] in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”
[see these two underlined sentences/phrases also in Matt22:13-14 (which passage [esp vv.9-14] speaks of the "INVITATION" of the "guests [plural]" to the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" per v.2, which is on the earth
i.e. the EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there] (see G347 also in Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]--not speaking of what msg we are sending forth today/in this present age, which instead pertains to asking ppl to be a part of the MARRIAGE [now, to be clear, either way, believers are "saved/saints," to be sure, it just depends on "WHEN" they come to faith [whether NOW (BEFORE "our Rapture") or THEN (FOLLOWING "our Rapture, in the TRIB YRS])]Again, Jesus is NOT coming, at that point, to MARRY 10 or even 5 VirginS [PLURAL]... He will be coming at that point as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom (WITH His "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" of whom "the MARRIAGE" itself [having taken place IN HEAVEN] pertains, alone!) There is NO "bride/wife" mentioned in any of the passages in the gospels (pertaining to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" Subject or "the MEAL [G347]... but OTHERS who will also be involved AT THAT POINT [His "RETURN" to the earth, where THEY are located--never having "lifted off" the earth!--these are not "Rapture" CONTEXTS])
ALL "There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth [<--see also Matt24:51]" passages speak of those who WILL NOT ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [-age], upon His "RETURN" to the earth
I don't see the word "chamber"... I do see "and the door was shut" (meaning [basically], that no one else will ENTER)...
I believe this corresponds with (such passages as the following):
Luke 13 -
The Narrow Door
(Matthew 7:13-14)
22 And He was going through by towns and villages, teaching and making progress toward Jerusalem. 23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, if those being saved are few?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in through the narrow door; for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and will not be able. 25 From the time the master of the house shall have risen up and shall have shut the door, then you shall begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’
And he answering, will say to you, ‘I do not know from where you are.’
26 Then will you begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
27 And he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know from where you are; depart from me, all you workers of unrighteousness.’
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth [<--see also Matt24:51] when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you are being cast out. 29 And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline [G347 - around a table / at the MEAL] in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”
[see these two underlined sentences/phrases also in Matt22:13-14 (which passage [esp vv.9-14] speaks of the "INVITATION" of the "guests [plural]" to the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" per v.2, which is on the earth i.e. the EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there] (see G347 also in Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]--not speaking of what msg we are sending forth today/in this present age, which instead pertains to asking ppl to be a part of the MARRIAGE [now, to be clear, either way, believers are "saved/saints," to be sure, it just depends on "WHEN" they come to faith [whether NOW (BEFORE "our Rapture") or THEN (FOLLOWING "our Rapture, in the TRIB YRS])]
Again, Jesus is NOT coming, at that point, to MARRY 10 or even 5 VirginS [PLURAL]... He will be coming at that point as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom (WITH His "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" of whom "the MARRIAGE" itself [having taken place IN HEAVEN] pertains, alone!) There is NO "bride/wife" mentioned in any of the passages in the gospels (pertaining to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" Subject or "the MEAL [G347]... but OTHERS who will also be involved AT THAT POINT [His "RETURN" to the earth, where THEY are located--never having "lifted off" the earth!--these are not "Rapture" CONTEXTS])
ALL "There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth [<--see also Matt24:51]" passages speak of those who WILL NOT ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [-age], upon His "RETURN" to the earth
I believe this corresponds with (such passages as the following):
Luke 13 -
The Narrow Door
(Matthew 7:13-14)
22 And He was going through by towns and villages, teaching and making progress toward Jerusalem. 23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, if those being saved are few?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in through the narrow door; for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and will not be able. 25 From the time the master of the house shall have risen up and shall have shut the door, then you shall begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’
And he answering, will say to you, ‘I do not know from where you are.’
26 Then will you begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
27 And he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know from where you are; depart from me, all you workers of unrighteousness.’
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth [<--see also Matt24:51] when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you are being cast out. 29 And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline [G347 - around a table / at the MEAL] in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”
[see these two underlined sentences/phrases also in Matt22:13-14 (which passage [esp vv.9-14] speaks of the "INVITATION" of the "guests [plural]" to the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" per v.2, which is on the earth
i.e. the EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there] (see G347 also in Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]--not speaking of what msg we are sending forth today/in this present age, which instead pertains to asking ppl to be a part of the MARRIAGE [now, to be clear, either way, believers are "saved/saints," to be sure, it just depends on "WHEN" they come to faith [whether NOW (BEFORE "our Rapture") or THEN (FOLLOWING "our Rapture, in the TRIB YRS])]Again, Jesus is NOT coming, at that point, to MARRY 10 or even 5 VirginS [PLURAL]... He will be coming at that point as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom (WITH His "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" of whom "the MARRIAGE" itself [having taken place IN HEAVEN] pertains, alone!) There is NO "bride/wife" mentioned in any of the passages in the gospels (pertaining to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" Subject or "the MEAL [G347]... but OTHERS who will also be involved AT THAT POINT [His "RETURN" to the earth, where THEY are located--never having "lifted off" the earth!--these are not "Rapture" CONTEXTS])
ALL "There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth [<--see also Matt24:51]" passages speak of those who WILL NOT ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [-age], upon His "RETURN" to the earth
but we do see a "room" because they went IN AND THE DOOR WAS SHUT.
For some reason,you want "door" to be a metaphor.
I see you making it "festivities" with a symbolic "door"
I am wondering why you are doing that?
OK nevermind
I am seeing what you are doing.
You think you are connecting the dots with Jesus coming back and establishing the mil
He is coming "from the wedding"
"to the kingdom"
and you are using some other verses to make the wedding supper on earth in the mil.
The thing is, you are making those verses say what you want to MAKE THE SUPPER IN THE MIL.
what do you think the rapture is?????
and what do you think rev 14 the catching up of the main harvest Jews is?????
And why did Jesus say "in my fathers house are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for you, THAT WHERE I AM YOU MAY ALSE BE"
AND
"I will not drink of the fruit of the vine again till i drink it anew in my fathers kingdom (heaven).
Here it is;
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Now mark;
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
now luke;
11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
now jn (after the supper);
11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
ALL AFTER THE SUPPER.
T
Yes. Resurrection day is the time of the Rapture, which is His Second Coming. No pre-trib supporter has shown me a verse where the dead in Christ are resurrected twice 7 years apart.
Joh 11:21 Martha then said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
23 Jesus *said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
Joh 11:21 Martha then said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
23 Jesus *said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
Besides the posts I've made on the fact that all OT saints were WELL-ACQUAINTED with the fact of [their] "Resurrection" (at the latter day / in/at the last day [not consisting of merely a singular 24-hr day]), Job [Job19:25-27], Daniel [Dan12:13], Martha [Jn11:24]),...
Paul tells the Corinthians [/members of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY], that "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY" and then goes on to inform of "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (meaning, this SPECIFIC set to whom this truth/doctrine pertains to, 1Cor15:51-54 [2Cor5:3-4])...
but aside from that (and many other points)...
[note to the readers: this is not may MAIN arguments (for "pre-trib"), which I've put in numerous other posts elsewhere, this is just ONE POINT among many "supporting" points, which I've also made in past posts]
Consider:
"[re: resurrection] but EACH [G1538] in his own ORDER" ... this means that there is an ORDER to it, and that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE (yet to occur):
[quoting from BibleHub]
[re: "EACH"] "1538 hékastos (from hekas, "separate") – each (individual) unit viewed distinctly, i.e. as opposed to "severally" (as a group)." [under the "Strong's" heading]
[and]
"each (of more than two)" [under the "HELPS Word-studies"]
[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline mine]
Note that Paul goes to great lengths to tell us (that which pertains to US / all those saved "in this present age [singular]" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]) that we are:
--called "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... the "ONE BODY"
--thus, that... "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ"
--that there is such a thing (as James 1:18 says), "[ye are] a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there's more than one "KIND" of FIRSTFRUIT, i.e. more than one "harvest" told of both in Scripture and in nature); "the 144,000" (per Rev14:4) correspond with the SECOND of TWO "firstfruit" (i.e. of the "WHEAT" harvest) spoken of in Lev23 (namely in v.17), where it says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (whereas "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is said to be we are "ONE BREAD [/LOAF]" 1Cor10:17, and "ye are UNleavened" 1Cor5:7 [stating these as "fact"])
--"and so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with / IDENTIFIED-with] HIM" (distinct from the "with [G3326]" word that is used of, say, the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" who will go in with [/ACCOMPANYING-G3326] Him to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" aka the earthly MK age (not "the MARRIAGE" itself!--He's not "MARRYING" FIVE VirginS [PLURAL]!!! )
--that's just the start of what all I could say on this topic (in relation to the verse under discussion, at present)... there's much more...
Paul tells the Corinthians [/members of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY], that "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY" and then goes on to inform of "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (meaning, this SPECIFIC set to whom this truth/doctrine pertains to, 1Cor15:51-54 [2Cor5:3-4])...
but aside from that (and many other points)...
[note to the readers: this is not may MAIN arguments (for "pre-trib"), which I've put in numerous other posts elsewhere, this is just ONE POINT among many "supporting" points, which I've also made in past posts]
Consider:
"[re: resurrection] but EACH [G1538] in his own ORDER" ... this means that there is an ORDER to it, and that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE (yet to occur):
[quoting from BibleHub]
[re: "EACH"] "1538 hékastos (from hekas, "separate") – each (individual) unit viewed distinctly, i.e. as opposed to "severally" (as a group)." [under the "Strong's" heading]
[and]
"each (of more than two)" [under the "HELPS Word-studies"]
[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline mine]
Note that Paul goes to great lengths to tell us (that which pertains to US / all those saved "in this present age [singular]" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]) that we are:
--called "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... the "ONE BODY"
--thus, that... "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ"
--that there is such a thing (as James 1:18 says), "[ye are] a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there's more than one "KIND" of FIRSTFRUIT, i.e. more than one "harvest" told of both in Scripture and in nature); "the 144,000" (per Rev14:4) correspond with the SECOND of TWO "firstfruit" (i.e. of the "WHEAT" harvest) spoken of in Lev23 (namely in v.17), where it says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (whereas "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is said to be we are "ONE BREAD [/LOAF]" 1Cor10:17, and "ye are UNleavened" 1Cor5:7 [stating these as "fact"])
--"and so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with / IDENTIFIED-with] HIM" (distinct from the "with [G3326]" word that is used of, say, the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" who will go in with [/ACCOMPANYING-G3326] Him to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" aka the earthly MK age (not "the MARRIAGE" itself!--He's not "MARRYING" FIVE VirginS [PLURAL]!!!
)--that's just the start of what all I could say on this topic (in relation to the verse under discussion, at present)... there's much more...
^ EDIT to add a bit:
--"the DEAD *IN* Christ" (as well as the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" who are ALSO *IN* Christ") = "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (the "ONE BODY") [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]; ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]";
--other "saints" of OTHER time periods (OT saints, Trib saints) = "those that *ARE[or, "OF THE"]* Christ's..."
--"the DEAD *IN* Christ" (as well as the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" who are ALSO *IN* Christ") = "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (the "ONE BODY") [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]; ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]";
--other "saints" of OTHER time periods (OT saints, Trib saints) = "those that *ARE[or, "OF THE"]* Christ's..."
T
[QUOTE="
God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the entire earth, then the church cannot be here during that time, because what is coming will be God's direct wrath, which believers are not appointed to suffer. Believers in Christ have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God.
All of the above are apart of the first resurrection. Just fyi, 'first' does not mean 'only.' The first resurrection refers to all resurrections which take place prior to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years.[/QUOTE]
_____________________________________________________
Was Job put through God's Wrath? Did God torment the only righteous man on earth he loved? No, but He allowed Satan to "test" him. That is the picture of the 7-year Tribulation. God will "allow" Satan to test His Church, to take peace from the earth and to kill in various ways - this is Satan's "wrath or fury" with permission granted by The Father for a 7-year period.
The hour of testing referred to in Rev. 3:10, is God's Wrath that will occur in the future (at the end of the 7-year Tribulation), this section of the verse shows the hour the Saints will be kept from:
Examples of "testing" vs "God's Wrath":
On-the-other hand, the church at Thyratira, although they were commended for their patience, charity, works and service, they suffered Jezebel to teach and seduce His servants, and work all kinds of evil in the church (kind of like today). God warned them to repent because he was going to pour out His Wrath upon any one of them found committing adultery with her:
When I decided to test the pre-trib Rapture (using only the Holy Spirit's guidance) that I believed, as taught, for 40 years, it soon became clear no Scripture contained a secret resurrection of the dead in Christ followed by the Rapture of the living EXCEPT post Tribulation at His Second Coming. I no longer believe that any Saint is entitled to escape persecution and tribulation - it is just a matter of degree that is visited upon us. Tribulation will be great during the final 3.5 years, but He will cut it short at some time close to the end. Such a blessing God has given us to not be caught off guard as to when He's coming, so we don't have to lose heart wondering (as so many already are). The thief will be taken by surprise when He comes, but we will not be surprised - we know when He is coming:
God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the entire earth, then the church cannot be here during that time, because what is coming will be God's direct wrath, which believers are not appointed to suffer. Believers in Christ have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God.
All of the above are apart of the first resurrection. Just fyi, 'first' does not mean 'only.' The first resurrection refers to all resurrections which take place prior to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years.[/QUOTE]
_____________________________________________________
Was Job put through God's Wrath? Did God torment the only righteous man on earth he loved? No, but He allowed Satan to "test" him. That is the picture of the 7-year Tribulation. God will "allow" Satan to test His Church, to take peace from the earth and to kill in various ways - this is Satan's "wrath or fury" with permission granted by The Father for a 7-year period.
God grants power to Satan:
- Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
- Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The hour of testing referred to in Rev. 3:10, is God's Wrath that will occur in the future (at the end of the 7-year Tribulation), this section of the verse shows the hour the Saints will be kept from:
- ...that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth
The church will not experience this "hour", because it's not a time of tribulation (all Saints will experience that) but it's the "hour of God's Wrath", that will "test" the ones left on earth - these are the unrighteous ones who took the Mark, the ones who loved their lives here and the things of this world and who turned down the offer of salvation in Christ.
(The Rapture and Resurrection have already occurred before this hour comes, as He already descended and harvested the Saints to Himself in the clouds. ( See Revelation 14:14-20 as Jesus descends in the clouds, reaps the harvest, gathers the wheat to Himself in the clouds (Resurrection/Rapture) and orders the tares bundled for burning. This is followed by God's Wrath being poured out and then the final Battle of Armageddon (putting the spoiled grapes through the vinepress).
Examples of "testing" vs "God's Wrath":
To the church at Smyrna, God understood and loved their faithfulness, obedience, and that they confessed His name boldly. Despite this, they were subject to tribulation (testing) and persecution, especially by the synagogue of Satan:
- Rev 2:9 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
- Rev 2:10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. *Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
*Notice Jesus tells them to be faithful until they are put to death. He tells the same to the church saints in the tribulation. That God won't "beat up His Bride" in the Tribulation doesn't stand up against these words.
On-the-other hand, the church at Thyratira, although they were commended for their patience, charity, works and service, they suffered Jezebel to teach and seduce His servants, and work all kinds of evil in the church (kind of like today). God warned them to repent because he was going to pour out His Wrath upon any one of them found committing adultery with her:
- Rev 2:22 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
- 2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
When I decided to test the pre-trib Rapture (using only the Holy Spirit's guidance) that I believed, as taught, for 40 years, it soon became clear no Scripture contained a secret resurrection of the dead in Christ followed by the Rapture of the living EXCEPT post Tribulation at His Second Coming. I no longer believe that any Saint is entitled to escape persecution and tribulation - it is just a matter of degree that is visited upon us. Tribulation will be great during the final 3.5 years, but He will cut it short at some time close to the end. Such a blessing God has given us to not be caught off guard as to when He's coming, so we don't have to lose heart wondering (as so many already are). The thief will be taken by surprise when He comes, but we will not be surprised - we know when He is coming:
- 1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
- 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
- Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
- Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
- Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
- 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
- 1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
T
You might get this in duplicate...
Was Job put through God's Wrath? Did God torment the only righteous man on earth he loved? No, but He allowed Satan to "test" him. That is the picture of the 7-year Tribulation. God will "allow" Satan to test His Church, to take peace from the earth and to kill in various ways - this is Satan's "wrath or fury" with permission granted by The Father for a 7-year period.
The hour of testing referred to in Rev. 3:10, is God's Wrath that will occur in the future (at the end of the 7-year Tribulation), this section of the verse shows the hour the Saints will be kept from:
Examples of "testing" vs "God's Wrath":
On-the-other hand, the church at Thyratira, although they were commended for their patience, charity, works and service, they suffered Jezebel to teach and seduce His servants, and work all kinds of evil in the church (kind of like today). God warned them to repent because he was going to pour out His Wrath upon any one of them found committing adultery with her:
When I decided to test the pre-trib Rapture (using only the Holy Spirit's guidance) that I believed, as taught, for 40 years, it soon became clear no Scripture contained a secret resurrection of the dead in Christ followed by the Rapture of the living EXCEPT post Tribulation at His Second Coming. I no longer believe that any Saint is entitled to escape persecution and tribulation - it is just a matter of degree that is visited upon us. Tribulation will be great during the final 3.5 years, but He will cut it short at some time close to the end. Such a blessing God has given us to not be caught off guard as to when He's coming, so we don't have to lose heart wondering (as so many already are). The thief will be taken by surprise when He comes, but we will not be surprised - we know when He is coming:
Was Job put through God's Wrath? Did God torment the only righteous man on earth he loved? No, but He allowed Satan to "test" him. That is the picture of the 7-year Tribulation. God will "allow" Satan to test His Church, to take peace from the earth and to kill in various ways - this is Satan's "wrath or fury" with permission granted by The Father for a 7-year period.
God grants power to Satan:
- Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
- Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The hour of testing referred to in Rev. 3:10, is God's Wrath that will occur in the future (at the end of the 7-year Tribulation), this section of the verse shows the hour the Saints will be kept from:
- ...that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth
The church will not experience this "hour", because it's not a time of tribulation (all Saints will experience that) but it's the "hour of God's Wrath", that will "test" the ones left on earth - these are the unrighteous ones who took the Mark, the ones who loved their lives here and the things of this world and who turned down the offer of salvation in Christ.
(The Rapture and Resurrection have already occurred before this hour comes, as He already descended and harvested the Saints to Himself in the clouds. ( See Revelation 14:14-20 as Jesus descends in the clouds, reaps the harvest, gathers the wheat to Himself in the clouds (Resurrection/Rapture) and orders the tares bundled for burning. This is followed by God's Wrath being poured out and then the final Battle of Armageddon (putting the spoiled grapes through the vinepress).
Examples of "testing" vs "God's Wrath":
To the church at Smyrna, God understood and loved their faithfulness, obedience, and that they confessed His name boldly. Despite this, they were subject to tribulation (testing) and persecution, especially by the synagogue of Satan:
- Rev 2:9 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
- Rev 2:10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. *Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
*Notice Jesus tells them to be faithful until they are put to death. He tells the same to the church saints in the tribulation. That God won't "beat up His Bride" in the Tribulation doesn't stand up against these words.
On-the-other hand, the church at Thyratira, although they were commended for their patience, charity, works and service, they suffered Jezebel to teach and seduce His servants, and work all kinds of evil in the church (kind of like today). God warned them to repent because he was going to pour out His Wrath upon any one of them found committing adultery with her:
- Rev 2:22 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
- 2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
When I decided to test the pre-trib Rapture (using only the Holy Spirit's guidance) that I believed, as taught, for 40 years, it soon became clear no Scripture contained a secret resurrection of the dead in Christ followed by the Rapture of the living EXCEPT post Tribulation at His Second Coming. I no longer believe that any Saint is entitled to escape persecution and tribulation - it is just a matter of degree that is visited upon us. Tribulation will be great during the final 3.5 years, but He will cut it short at some time close to the end. Such a blessing God has given us to not be caught off guard as to when He's coming, so we don't have to lose heart wondering (as so many already are). The thief will be taken by surprise when He comes, but we will not be surprised - we know when He is coming:
- 1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
- 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
- Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
- Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
- Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
- 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
- 1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
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T
Besides the posts I've made on the fact that all OT saints were WELL-ACQUAINTED with the fact of [their] "Resurrection" (at the latter day / in/at the last day [not consisting of merely a singular 24-hr day]), Job [Job19:25-27], Daniel [Dan12:13], Martha [Jn11:24]),...
Paul tells the Corinthians [/members of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY], that "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY" and then goes on to inform of "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (meaning, this SPECIFIC set to whom this truth/doctrine pertains to, 1Cor15:51-54 [2Cor5:3-4])...
but aside from that (and many other points)...
[note to the readers: this is not may MAIN arguments (for "pre-trib"), which I've put in numerous other posts elsewhere, this is just ONE POINT among many "supporting" points, which I've also made in past posts]
Consider:
"[re: resurrection] but EACH [G1538] in his own ORDER" ... this means that there is an ORDER to it, and that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE (yet to occur):
[quoting from BibleHub]
[re: "EACH"] "1538 hékastos (from hekas, "separate") – each (individual) unit viewed distinctly, i.e. as opposed to "severally" (as a group)." [under the "Strong's" heading]
[and]
"each (of more than two)" [under the "HELPS Word-studies"]
[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline mine]
Note that Paul goes to great lengths to tell us (that which pertains to US / all those saved "in this present age [singular]" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]) that we are:
--called "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... the "ONE BODY"
--thus, that... "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ"
--that there is such a thing (as James 1:18 says), "[ye are] a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there's more than one "KIND" of FIRSTFRUIT, i.e. more than one "harvest" told of both in Scripture and in nature); "the 144,000" (per Rev14:4) correspond with the SECOND of TWO "firstfruit" (i.e. of the "WHEAT" harvest) spoken of in Lev23 (namely in v.17), where it says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (whereas "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is said to be we are "ONE BREAD [/LOAF]" 1Cor10:17, and "ye are UNleavened" 1Cor5:7 [stating these as "fact"])
--"and so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with / IDENTIFIED-with] HIM" (distinct from the "with [G3326]" word that is used of, say, the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" who will go in with [/ACCOMPANYING-G3326] Him to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" aka the earthly MK age (not "the MARRIAGE" itself!--He's not "MARRYING" FIVE VirginS [PLURAL]!!! )
--that's just the start of what all I could say on this topic (in relation to the verse under discussion, at present)... there's much more...
Paul tells the Corinthians [/members of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY], that "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY" and then goes on to inform of "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (meaning, this SPECIFIC set to whom this truth/doctrine pertains to, 1Cor15:51-54 [2Cor5:3-4])...
but aside from that (and many other points)...
[note to the readers: this is not may MAIN arguments (for "pre-trib"), which I've put in numerous other posts elsewhere, this is just ONE POINT among many "supporting" points, which I've also made in past posts]
Consider:
"[re: resurrection] but EACH [G1538] in his own ORDER" ... this means that there is an ORDER to it, and that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE (yet to occur):
[quoting from BibleHub]
[re: "EACH"] "1538 hékastos (from hekas, "separate") – each (individual) unit viewed distinctly, i.e. as opposed to "severally" (as a group)." [under the "Strong's" heading]
[and]
"each (of more than two)" [under the "HELPS Word-studies"]
[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline mine]
Note that Paul goes to great lengths to tell us (that which pertains to US / all those saved "in this present age [singular]" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]) that we are:
--called "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... the "ONE BODY"
--thus, that... "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ"
--that there is such a thing (as James 1:18 says), "[ye are] a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there's more than one "KIND" of FIRSTFRUIT, i.e. more than one "harvest" told of both in Scripture and in nature); "the 144,000" (per Rev14:4) correspond with the SECOND of TWO "firstfruit" (i.e. of the "WHEAT" harvest) spoken of in Lev23 (namely in v.17), where it says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (whereas "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is said to be we are "ONE BREAD [/LOAF]" 1Cor10:17, and "ye are UNleavened" 1Cor5:7 [stating these as "fact"])
--"and so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with / IDENTIFIED-with] HIM" (distinct from the "with [G3326]" word that is used of, say, the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" who will go in with [/ACCOMPANYING-G3326] Him to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" aka the earthly MK age (not "the MARRIAGE" itself!--He's not "MARRYING" FIVE VirginS [PLURAL]!!!
)--that's just the start of what all I could say on this topic (in relation to the verse under discussion, at present)... there's much more...
I'm new here. I was actually answering the post above yours, and somehow mistakenly I sent it to you.
I see the verse very simply. Christ is the first fruits, He's resurrected first (done), then next comes the resurrection of every one that are His ---- at His Second Coming. I don't see how anything else can be read into the text.
God Bless You - so glad to meet another studying His Word. It encourages me.
Yes, and welcome... I do realize you were speaking directly with another poster... my apologies for "sticking in"... my whole point (of my doing so) was simply the "Consider [this]" that I'd put (more toward the CENTER of my Post #547 [to you])...
I believe that at the time of Jesus' FIRST ascension [Jn20:17] (ON Firstfruit--His Resurrection Day--thus fulfilling "Firstfruit" [Lev23:10-12]), that "the Church which is His body" (ALL believers/the saved of "this present age [singular]) is who He took with Him [positionally/legally], and that this is what Paul discloses all throughout his epistles, in numerous ways;
...and that this was distinct from His LATER [Acts 1] ascension (which was VISIBLE) and which is the manner in which He will "so come" (that is, to the earth [Rev19], and VISIBLY);
these TWO being separated by some "40 DAYS" ("40" = "trial, testing, judgment, etc")... so we're also seeing a sort of template or outline, in this, if you will...
Glad to meet you as well. = )
Hope to see you around the boards.
I believe that at the time of Jesus' FIRST ascension [Jn20:17] (ON Firstfruit--His Resurrection Day--thus fulfilling "Firstfruit" [Lev23:10-12]), that "the Church which is His body" (ALL believers/the saved of "this present age [singular]) is who He took with Him [positionally/legally], and that this is what Paul discloses all throughout his epistles, in numerous ways;
...and that this was distinct from His LATER [Acts 1] ascension (which was VISIBLE) and which is the manner in which He will "so come" (that is, to the earth [Rev19], and VISIBLY);
these TWO being separated by some "40 DAYS" ("40" = "trial, testing, judgment, etc")... so we're also seeing a sort of template or outline, in this, if you will...
Glad to meet you as well. = )
Hope to see you around the boards.
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That is incorrect! God is the One responsible for the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which He will pour out upon the earth, not Satan. As I have reminded people so many times, what the apostles and the first century church experienced was not the wrath of God, but the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have because of their faith in Him. In contrast, God's coming wrath, also called 'the Day of the Lord' will be God's direct wrath upon the earth, which we the church are not appointed to suffer.
False! People have continued to move God's wrath all over the place, saying God's wrath takes place after the sixth seal is opened or that only the bowls make up God's wrath, etc. These are all false! God's wrath is the entire seven year period, which is represented by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will unleash. It is the fulfillment of that last seven years of those seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24
The church will be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath, because we are children of the day and of the light, We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. Since Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, then the wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God.
The next prophetic event to take place will be the fulfillment of the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 to come and gather His church and take them back to the Father's house (heaven) to those places that He went to prepare for us. The detailed account of that event is found in I Thess.4:13-18. Therefore, comfort each other with those words. Suffice to say, if the living church was to go through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which span the entire seven years, then we would have no reason to comfort each other, because you and others would have us going through the same punishment as the wicked. Paul also referred to the Lord's coming to gather believers as 'the Blessed Hope.' Again, it would be no blessed hope if we were in fact to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
To say that God's wrath only takes place at the end of the seven years, is due to not understanding the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the reason for it and those who will experience it.
If you believe that the Lord is going to put you through the seals, trumpets and bowls which make up His wrath, then you are just not believing that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath on your behalf. And by teaching this, you are not comforting other believers with those words.
God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the whole earth, then we, the church, must be removed before that time of wrath begins. Therefore, for everyone who is reading this, be comforted knowing that believers will not go through God's coming, unprecedented wrath.
-
- Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.[/quote]
False! People have continued to move God's wrath all over the place, saying God's wrath takes place after the sixth seal is opened or that only the bowls make up God's wrath, etc. These are all false! God's wrath is the entire seven year period, which is represented by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will unleash. It is the fulfillment of that last seven years of those seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24
The church will be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath, because we are children of the day and of the light, We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. Since Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, then the wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God.
The next prophetic event to take place will be the fulfillment of the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 to come and gather His church and take them back to the Father's house (heaven) to those places that He went to prepare for us. The detailed account of that event is found in I Thess.4:13-18. Therefore, comfort each other with those words. Suffice to say, if the living church was to go through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which span the entire seven years, then we would have no reason to comfort each other, because you and others would have us going through the same punishment as the wicked. Paul also referred to the Lord's coming to gather believers as 'the Blessed Hope.' Again, it would be no blessed hope if we were in fact to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
To say that God's wrath only takes place at the end of the seven years, is due to not understanding the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the reason for it and those who will experience it.
If you believe that the Lord is going to put you through the seals, trumpets and bowls which make up His wrath, then you are just not believing that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath on your behalf. And by teaching this, you are not comforting other believers with those words.
God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the whole earth, then we, the church, must be removed before that time of wrath begins. Therefore, for everyone who is reading this, be comforted knowing that believers will not go through God's coming, unprecedented wrath.
Regarding our Lord's conversation with Martha, good point. He made the same point himself 3 other times in scripture.
John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
(40) For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day
He must have been trying to tell us something.
Like Paul:
2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
(40) For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day
He must have been trying to tell us something.
Like Paul:
2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
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I’m wondering what passivity and inaction you are referring to? What are Christians to do but share the Good News? We can still do that at any time..though we will be allowed to be overcome by the antichrist.
When the Christians who believe the pre trib rapture are still here could we see..
Matthew 24:9-10
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Revelation 13:7
It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
Mark 13:9
You will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.
You will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.
Revelation 6:9
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained
I think that the false teaching of the pre trib rapture is to deceive Christians..just like verse 3 says will happen. The apostasy comes first.When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained
When the Christians who believe the pre trib rapture are still here could we see..
Matthew 24:9-10
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Those who are currently in Christ (the Church) will never see the antichrist. Revelation 13:7 is referring to the great tribulation saints, those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath, which we are introduced to in Revelation 7:9-17. The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group which no man can count demonstrates that this is not the church. In addition, John says that he doesn't know who they are. And they are never referred to collectively as the church. It is this group that the beast will be given to make war against and to overcome them.
Not to say that it won't happen again, but Peter and Paul, as well as others have already fulfilled this prophecy. Remember when Paul stood before King Agrippa, his wife and Felix?
Revelation 6:9
This group under the altar in heaven, will be those who will have died during the first 3 1/2 years. Their brothers and fellow servants will be those great tribulation saints who die during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.
You are just following along with this on-going error, in that you are not paying attention to what 2 Thess.2 is actually saying.Verse 1: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him
Verse 2: asserting that the day of the Lord has already come
The coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him and the Day of the Lord (though closely linked), are not the same event. The gathering of the church takes place first, which is then followed by the Day of the Lord, the wrath of God. The problem is that many don't take into consideration the change that Paul makes from one to the other.
2 Thessalonians 2 Paul's response is to a letter written by the Thessalonians, which we don't get to see. However, in his first letter, Paul had taught the Thessalonians that the Lord would descend from heaven where the dead would rise first, with the living being changed and caught up. After that event, the world would enter into the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. So, the reason why Paul starts the letter with "Concerning the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" is because there were some false teachers in Thessalonica teaching that 'the Day of the Lord' had already come, i.e. the time period of God's wrath. So, the Thessalonians were basically writing to Paul saying, "Hey Paul, if the Day of the Lord has already come, how come we haven't been changed and caught up, as you taught us. Then Paul comforts them by saying that the proof that 'the Day of the Lord' has come will be when the apostasy takes place and the man of lawlessness being revealed.
The underlying principle in all of this, is that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those who believe in Him. They have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God."Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed."
Therefore, this is why believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and that because Jesus already did. Anyone who believes and teaches that the Lord will gather His church after His wrath, is not believing what Jesus already accomplished.
Your point would be good, if "the last day" were a "singular 24-hr day". But it is not.
A great many things transpire "IN the last day," and this is one of them... the "resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth]" of the OT saints (and Trib saints who die in the trib yrs).
That happens "IN [/AT] The Last Day"
^ Verse 39 is referring to [Jesus'] THINGS (His "governance/rule/reign," "throne" kinds of things)
^ Verse 40 is referring to PERSONS (all persons who are still IN THE GRAVES [bodily]--that is, the OT saints; and the Trib saints who will have DIED in the trib yrs [not 100% of trib saints will DIE, some will be "still-living" to ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies: one example, Dan12:12 "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" [corresponding to about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of the SAME time-slot/and thing])
[ditto what I said above]
He was, just like Hosea 5:14-6:3 speaks of "after TWO DAYS," and "IN THE THIRD DAY" (i.e. the THIRD of THREE [total] Days since His resurrection/ascension, per vv.14-15,6:2--this CONTEXT is speaking of ISRAEL who will "live in His sight" [in the earthly MK age]), i.e. "[IN] THE LAST" [Day] (same as the "seventh" [day] elsewhere spoken of, like in Ex31:13,15,17 "but in the SEVENTH is the sabbath of REST, holy to the Lord... It [the sabbath/SEVENTH DAY (the "LAST" day)] is a SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever" (see also Heb4:9 - "there remaineth a sabbatismos for the people of God").
But, as far as "the MARRIAGE" of the "Bridegroom" and His "Bride/Wife," she will be "brought [her] UNTO THE MAN" in the SIXTH DAY (not in "the LAST [/SEVENTH]"), per Genesis 2:22,
"And the rib, which the LORD had taken out-FROM THE MAN, made he a woman, and BROUGHT HER UNTO THE MAN."
[Paul and Peter both said they don't want us to be IGNORANT of certain things.]
See "having been created IN CHRIST JESUS"/"to create IN HIMSELF...," and... Eph5:25,27-32 "This MYSTERY is GREAT, but I speak as to Christ and as to the church"
["the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" (v.1) is speaking of the "intimate" event that pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (like Eph5 is referring to), i.e. "the MARRIAGE" itself ("to present her TO HIMSELF"... and taking place IN HEAVEN prior to His [and "our" ("WITH [G4862] HIM")] RETURN to the earth (IN "the LAST DAY") FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" (i.e. the "BLESSED"-related verses, some 8 or 10 of them, speaking of that point in the chronology of events);
...Thus, Verse 1 is distinct from v.8b's "the epiphaneia [/manifestation / appearing / glorious DISPLAY] of His coming" which is His "RETURN" to the earth time-slot (distinct from the event of v.1--following which [meaning, following "our Rapture"] is the "whose coming [arrival/advent/presence/parousia]" of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME [the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the DOTL" earthly time-period, i.e. his "be revealed" thing, to DO all he is prophesied to DO during THAT time-period, the [7] Trib yrs)]
A great many things transpire "IN the last day," and this is one of them... the "resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth]" of the OT saints (and Trib saints who die in the trib yrs).
That happens "IN [/AT] The Last Day"
^ Verse 39 is referring to [Jesus'] THINGS (His "governance/rule/reign," "throne" kinds of things)
^ Verse 40 is referring to PERSONS (all persons who are still IN THE GRAVES [bodily]--that is, the OT saints; and the Trib saints who will have DIED in the trib yrs [not 100% of trib saints will DIE, some will be "still-living" to ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies: one example, Dan12:12 "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" [corresponding to about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of the SAME time-slot/and thing])
[ditto what I said above]
He was, just like Hosea 5:14-6:3 speaks of "after TWO DAYS," and "IN THE THIRD DAY" (i.e. the THIRD of THREE [total] Days since His resurrection/ascension, per vv.14-15,6:2--this CONTEXT is speaking of ISRAEL who will "live in His sight" [in the earthly MK age]), i.e. "[IN] THE LAST" [Day] (same as the "seventh" [day] elsewhere spoken of, like in Ex31:13,15,17 "but in the SEVENTH is the sabbath of REST, holy to the Lord... It [the sabbath/SEVENTH DAY (the "LAST" day)] is a SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever" (see also Heb4:9 - "there remaineth a sabbatismos for the people of God").
But, as far as "the MARRIAGE" of the "Bridegroom" and His "Bride/Wife," she will be "brought [her] UNTO THE MAN" in the SIXTH DAY (not in "the LAST [/SEVENTH]"), per Genesis 2:22,
"And the rib, which the LORD had taken out-FROM THE MAN, made he a woman, and BROUGHT HER UNTO THE MAN."
[Paul and Peter both said they don't want us to be IGNORANT of certain things.]
See "having been created IN CHRIST JESUS"/"to create IN HIMSELF...," and... Eph5:25,27-32 "This MYSTERY is GREAT, but I speak as to Christ and as to the church"
["the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" (v.1) is speaking of the "intimate" event that pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (like Eph5 is referring to), i.e. "the MARRIAGE" itself ("to present her TO HIMSELF"... and taking place IN HEAVEN prior to His [and "our" ("WITH [G4862] HIM")] RETURN to the earth (IN "the LAST DAY") FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" (i.e. the "BLESSED"-related verses, some 8 or 10 of them, speaking of that point in the chronology of events);
...Thus, Verse 1 is distinct from v.8b's "the epiphaneia [/manifestation / appearing / glorious DISPLAY] of His coming" which is His "RETURN" to the earth time-slot (distinct from the event of v.1--following which [meaning, following "our Rapture"] is the "whose coming [arrival/advent/presence/parousia]" of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME [the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the DOTL" earthly time-period, i.e. his "be revealed" thing, to DO all he is prophesied to DO during THAT time-period, the [7] Trib yrs)]
Hi!
My question is why would God have tribulation saints..when He already has saints? Why wouldn’t we go through the trib? Why would God feel the need to get us out of the trib and put others in our place? That doesn’t make sense to me.
Aren’t they the ones from the rapture?
Obviously no one was there with John when he first arrived in heaven...maybe that’s why he was confused as to who those people were?
Who now a days have stood before rulers and kings of this day? No one that I’ve heard.
We will be those tribulation saints.
So, you don’t think that’s going to be a physical event then? Paul says that we will meet him in the air.
My question is why would God have tribulation saints..when He already has saints? Why wouldn’t we go through the trib? Why would God feel the need to get us out of the trib and put others in our place? That doesn’t make sense to me.
John 17:15
I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Aren’t they the ones from the rapture?
1 Thessalonians 4:14-15, 17
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Obviously no one was there with John when he first arrived in heaven...maybe that’s why he was confused as to who those people were?
Who now a days have stood before rulers and kings of this day? No one that I’ve heard.
We will be those tribulation saints.
So, you don’t think that’s going to be a physical event then? Paul says that we will meet him in the air.
Because, as I previously demonstrated, since Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. It is a legal precedent. It's been accomplished. And because God's wrath will affect the entire earth, there will be no where to go to be safe. I would suggest that you do an indepth study on the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and then ask yourself the same question, as you did here.
As for the great tribulation saints, they become believers after the church has been gathered, which is why they are present on the earth during that time.
Regarding the above, Jesus was praying for His disciples to not take them out of the world. If God had taken the disciples out of the world, who would have preached the gospel? It would have died with the disciples if they had been removed form the earth. However, you need to also include all related scriptures and not just the ones that benefit your interpretation, such as what Jesus said to His disciples in John 13
========================================================================
"Little children, I am with you only a little while longer. You will look for Me, and as I said to the Jews, so now I say to you: ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’
"Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.
Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later
===============================================================================
The scripture above is in reference to the gathering of the church. The problem is that you and others are not recognizing the gathering of the church and the Lord's returns to the earth as being two separate events, which take place at different times and have different purposes.
When the Lord comes to gather His church, He will descend to the atmosphere, where the dead in Christ from the on-set of the church, will rise. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive, will be changed and caught up with those who will have resurrected. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be in the air with the Lord. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, so that where He is, we may be also.
Previous to John being introduced to this group which no man could count, he was told to write to the seven churches. So, in chapter 7 when the elder asks him who these in white robes are, John doesn't know who they are. And as I said, the fact that the elder is asking John this question after he just wrote letters to the seven churches, demonstrates that this group is not the church, but another group.
By no means! I don't know where you got the idea that I said it wouldn't be a physical event. I have always believed the gathering of the church to be a literal, imminent event. It is the next prophetic event that is going to take place, which will be followed by the time of God's wrath, leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age.
I feel that you are eager for the truth, but I believe that you have a lot more study in this to do regarding this subject. I pray that God will give you understanding as dig into them. Just try to stay away from the many teachings of men on this subject, because many are wrong. As you study, just keep in mind this one principle which is that Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon us. Since God's wrath must take place prior to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, then the church must be gathered before the first seal is opened, which initiates God's wrath.
As for the great tribulation saints, they become believers after the church has been gathered, which is why they are present on the earth during that time.
Regarding the above, Jesus was praying for His disciples to not take them out of the world. If God had taken the disciples out of the world, who would have preached the gospel? It would have died with the disciples if they had been removed form the earth. However, you need to also include all related scriptures and not just the ones that benefit your interpretation, such as what Jesus said to His disciples in John 13
========================================================================
"Little children, I am with you only a little while longer. You will look for Me, and as I said to the Jews, so now I say to you: ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’
"Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.
Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later
===============================================================================
When the Lord comes to gather His church, He will descend to the atmosphere, where the dead in Christ from the on-set of the church, will rise. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive, will be changed and caught up with those who will have resurrected. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be in the air with the Lord. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, so that where He is, we may be also.
Previous to John being introduced to this group which no man could count, he was told to write to the seven churches. So, in chapter 7 when the elder asks him who these in white robes are, John doesn't know who they are. And as I said, the fact that the elder is asking John this question after he just wrote letters to the seven churches, demonstrates that this group is not the church, but another group.
By no means! I don't know where you got the idea that I said it wouldn't be a physical event. I have always believed the gathering of the church to be a literal, imminent event. It is the next prophetic event that is going to take place, which will be followed by the time of God's wrath, leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age.
I feel that you are eager for the truth, but I believe that you have a lot more study in this to do regarding this subject. I pray that God will give you understanding as dig into them. Just try to stay away from the many teachings of men on this subject, because many are wrong. As you study, just keep in mind this one principle which is that Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon us. Since God's wrath must take place prior to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, then the church must be gathered before the first seal is opened, which initiates God's wrath.