Is it a sin to drink alcohol
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Calling me names does not look like forgiveness to me. I don't believe you.
In fact you remind me of someone else, who falsely accused me of all manner of things, offered up a phony apology, and then proceeded to smear me in multiple other threads while breaking the rules by using his girlfriend's account to repeat his false allegations because his account was suspended. I do not accept phony apologies or pretend forgiveness.
This may or may not be pertinent at this point. I dont know who to credit it to because it is a random note from a while back.
Drink offering
The first recorded occurrence of a drink offering was that given by Jacob in Genesis 35:14, right after God changed his name to Israel. Drink offerings were also included with burnt and grain offerings in God-ordained sacrifices, including the morning and evening sacrifices of Exodus 29:40. One-quarter hin, about one quart, of wine was poured out into the altar fire for each lamb sacrificed (Numbers 15:4-5). A ram sacrifice required one third of a hin (Numbers 15:6), and a bull required one half (Numbers 15:10).
It has been speculated that the offering of an animal, grain, oil, and wine—the smoke making a “soothing aroma to the LORD”—is a metaphor for providing food for God, an important cultural requirement in the Middle East. What we do know is that the pouring out of a drink offering is a metaphor for the blood Jesus spilled on the cross. Jesus spoke to this directly in Luke 22:20 when He instituted the New Covenant. He picked up a cup of wine and said, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.” Jesus’ sacrifice fulfilled the need of a drink offering, His blood literally pouring out when the soldier pierced His side with a spear (John 19:33).
Paul took the metaphor further, twice using the image of a drink offering to describe his own service. In Philippians 2:17, he challenged the church in Philippi to live a life worthy of his dedication to them. In 2 Timothy 4:6, he sensed the end of his ministry, again comparing his efforts to wine poured out of a vessel onto an altar.
Drink offering
The first recorded occurrence of a drink offering was that given by Jacob in Genesis 35:14, right after God changed his name to Israel. Drink offerings were also included with burnt and grain offerings in God-ordained sacrifices, including the morning and evening sacrifices of Exodus 29:40. One-quarter hin, about one quart, of wine was poured out into the altar fire for each lamb sacrificed (Numbers 15:4-5). A ram sacrifice required one third of a hin (Numbers 15:6), and a bull required one half (Numbers 15:10).
It has been speculated that the offering of an animal, grain, oil, and wine—the smoke making a “soothing aroma to the LORD”—is a metaphor for providing food for God, an important cultural requirement in the Middle East. What we do know is that the pouring out of a drink offering is a metaphor for the blood Jesus spilled on the cross. Jesus spoke to this directly in Luke 22:20 when He instituted the New Covenant. He picked up a cup of wine and said, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.” Jesus’ sacrifice fulfilled the need of a drink offering, His blood literally pouring out when the soldier pierced His side with a spear (John 19:33).
Paul took the metaphor further, twice using the image of a drink offering to describe his own service. In Philippians 2:17, he challenged the church in Philippi to live a life worthy of his dedication to them. In 2 Timothy 4:6, he sensed the end of his ministry, again comparing his efforts to wine poured out of a vessel onto an altar.
I recall being in Belfast 1997 and attending Dr. Paisley's church. Some of the brethren went to the pub to have a little one afterwards.
You can't overthink it though. That's no fun. Then again, I must be blessed by God not to be affected by alcohol easily. I never get why people worry so much about alcohol. It is a lot more good than bad in my experience, and always under control. Then again, I'm blessed by the ability to notice and stop myself after a certain moderate limit of alcohol enters my system after which I couldn't drink more even if I wanted to no matter how hard I try. I developed this in my late 20s. In my early 20s I was reckless when drinking with friends. Thankfully, no more.
That said, I prefer your revision to my statement:
"if you are going to drink alcohol and you are not drinking socially then you are missing out."
Godspeed.
If you saw the kind of wreckage that I've seen that the use of Alcohol causes not only to recreational drinkers but also to friends, family, innocent bystanders and taxpayers... I'd bet you'd change your tune. Alcohol is one of the oldest, most [infamously, addictive, psychoactive drugs in history. I'm not a crusader for prohibition or abstinence for everyone.
I left the Salvation Army Corps Soldiers (not the charity, the denomination) training because they required us to take a vow to militantly oppose; alcoholic drink. tobacco, the non-medical use of addictive drugs. gambling, pornography, the occult, and all else that could enslave the body or spirit. (Borrowed from the)
That's like banning firearms to prevent murder & suicide, so I quit.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
If you saw the kind of wreckage that I've seen that the use of Alcohol causes not only to recreational drinkers but also to friends, family, innocent bystanders and taxpayers... I'd bet you'd change your tune. Alcohol is one of the oldest, most [infamously, addictive, psychoactive drugs in history. I'm not a crusader for prohibition or abstinence for everyone.
I left the Salvation Army Corps Soldiers (not the charity, the denomination) training because they required us to take a vow to militantly oppose; alcoholic drink. tobacco, the non-medical use of addictive drugs. gambling, pornography, the occult, and all else that could enslave the body or spirit. (Borrowed from the)Soldier's Covenant - The Articles of War
That's like banning firearms to prevent murder & suicide, so I quit.
But that was done for a reason. William Booth and his wife were in the trenches. They weren't churchified. They were dealing with the worst of the worst. They were reaching people for the Lord that no one else at the time wanted to reach out to. What testimony would it be for them to haul people from the gutter to turn around and socially drink?
I realize that of course. One of my favorite post Constantine preachers/ evangelists to quote is General Booth! Regarding what you said about returning to social drinking after recovery. Well. I've never seen it done successfully. My only point was that; we still have the freedom to drink if it hasn't and/or dosn't effect our relationship with the Lord and others, our ability to witness and credibility.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Neither has any benefit, and I say that as someone who is married to a smoker. I don't think either should be supported by the church. Habits to get rid of, both are bondage.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
And I've never seen that done successfully either. I recall a pastor wrote an article a few years back. He said he had no issue with sipping saints and drank socially himself. One evening he was out with friends, got carried away and got in a scrap with one of his buddies and the police were called. In that moment he realized what he had done to his testimony. He changed his mind on drinking that night. No reason good reason to support it. No one has ever given me a positive reason for drinking yet. Having freedom doesn't make it wise nor a good testimony. And yes, Booth was certainly one of a kind. What did you think of Billy Sunday?
I've never heard of Billy Sunday. I'm familiar with Gen. Booth through my association with the Salvation Army. For those who don't know. The Salvation Army was founded by William and Catherine Booth. It's a denomination that was focused on ministering to the needs of the down & outers. Alcoholic & Opium addicts, homeless men & women especially bums and prostitutes in 1860's London streets. (Originally) W. Booth was a Methodist minister who realized the hypocrisy of preaching Salvation to the saved at church while meanwhile ignoring the sick people dying in sin outside of church doors. He said:
"No sort of defense is needed for preaching outdoors, but it would take a very strong argument to prove that a man who has never preached beyond the walls of his meetinghouse has done his duty. A defense is required for services within buildings rather than for worship outside of them."
And; "You cannot warm the hearts of people with God's love if they have an empty stomach and cold feet."
William Booth
It's not his opposition to alcohol that I respect him for. It was his dedication to helping those most in need. He was a true street missionary. He also helped very much in creating child labor laws. His wife Catherine was an early Women's suffrage pioneer. She said:
"And we find from Church history that the primitive Christians thus understood it; for that women did actually speak and preach amongst them we have indisputable proof."
And; "Cast off all bonds of prejudice and custom, and let the love of Christ, which is in you, have free course to run out in all conceivable schemes and methods of labour for the souls of men."
Catherine Booth
She was ordained too!
I appreciate it. I'm not saying there is NO way to enjoy responsibly. What I do suggest is that I'm not going to "talk it up" because of the wreckage it causes for some. The problem is you can't really know who will struggle and who will not. You can make an educated guess, but still it's a guess. On some level it's frustrating because there are some positives...but generally speaking the negatives outweigh the positives. I can certainly see why temperance propaganda is supported by some and I won't go that far but I respect people that feel such a burden and am willing to operate in but it's a person by person basis. The last thing I want is people to be turned off to the church because of an anti alcohol stance. So I settle with "mostly" anti-alcohol and let it be a personal decision with no encouragement on my end except in a private way if I am CONVINCED that it's not going to open a door with the onus falling on me in any way.
I think we are all responsible for each other in sometimes small ways and rarely in big ways. Ultimately, we all have to work out our own salvation
Knowing the potential pitfalls, I see no reason to talk about the positives unless someone is wrestling with temperance propaganda and feels it's alright for them and is sincere and not rationalizing in order to skirt their own issue.
We ALL have weaknesses and working around others as best we can is loving to me.
Can you clarify what you mean by "in and of themselves"?
Oh and I do agree with you about not supporting militancy in the S.A. I think it works for some when they have to be militant and indeed those that walk that road get a SOLID thumbs up from me. It's just projecting that onto everyone is incorrect and damaging to unilaterally impose from my perspective. That's where they fight and I thank God for what they do...
There is of course, more to be said though. It's worth a try for someone that needs freedom but it's definitely not for everyone.
I appreciate it. I'm not saying there is NO way to enjoy responsibly. What I do suggest is that I'm not going to "talk it up" because of the wreckage it causes for some. The problem is you can't really know who will struggle and who will not. You can make an educated guess, but still it's a guess. On some level it's frustrating because there are some positives...but generally speaking the negatives outweigh the positives. I can certainly see why temperance propaganda is supported by some and I won't go that far but I respect people that feel such a burden and am willing to operate in but it's a person by person basis. The last thing I want is people to be turned off to the church because of an anti alcohol stance. So I settle with "mostly" anti-alcohol and let it be a personal decision with no encouragement on my end except in a private way if I am CONVINCED that it's not going to open a door with the onus falling on me in any way.
I think we are all responsible for each other in sometimes small ways and rarely in big ways. Ultimately, we all have to work out our own salvation
Knowing the potential pitfalls, I see no reason to talk about the positives unless someone is wrestling with temperance propaganda and feels it's alright for them and is sincere and not rationalizing in order to skirt their own issue.
We ALL have weaknesses and working around others as best we can is loving to me.
I don't know. I am a responsible adult and I shared my honest opinion. Take it or leave it. I'm not gonna stop enjoying alcohol just because other people can't enjoy it (in fact, I'm enjoying some wine right now). Besides, if you don't agree with me, then just "react" to my reply by downvoting or disagreeing, thanks to the power of Internet forums. That way, other people who might not have good tolerance for alcohol could just skoot by my reply. I trust that everyone is responsible.
Anyways, always see the positive in my replies, and if you can't, then imagine a positive explanation or alternative. I always mean good even if I don't come across that way.
Godspeed.
Idk, some reactions send a vague message. I would rather engage a disagreement than give a simple reaction that can be misunderstood. Like, there are some things that I like but some I don't so putting dislike or disagree would be lying to me ha. Some also seem pretty impersonal
It's difficult speaking to multiple people at once because it changes how I interact alas.
Certainly I am not suggesting you stop enjoying something because other people aren't built to be responsible in a particular area. That's like saying no one should get married because some it might tempt them toward adultery and if they just stayed single and not date or talk to anyone everything would be alright.
Maybe we just won't see eye to eye right now. Thanks for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it. Feedback is most often a good learning opportunity though sometimes it's unpleasant lol
Peace.
Sure. Matthew 15:11 "It's Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” NKJV
Gambling and alcohol for example are relatively benign to most people. Most people can safely and responsibly Enjoy some beer on or after a hard days work or on a hot day and or drink wine with dinner or to toast a wedding for example. Gambling is fairly harmless to most also. I can afford to bet $5 that the San Diego Padres won't win any pennants next year. People customarily used to smoke cigars to celebrate a healthy mother and newborn baby etc. Addiction comes from within on an individual basis, not from without.
Just because I admit that I have an addictive personality/nature and that certain substances and/or behaviors' have become sinful for me. I shan't cast aspersions on everyone that can take it or leave it without giving into sin. For many the love or lust of certain substances and/or behaviors crosses into Idolatry. While most Christians that I've known can have a taste of wine with Communion and 'Praise the Lord' for the ability to do so.
If it causes you to sin, it is for you. If seeing you do it causes another to sin, keep it away from them. Don't be a stumbling block for others. That's all.
