Plea not to receive mark of the beast because of waiting for rapture
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Hello Absolutely
If you have included bible verses in your many posts then I must have missed them. If they have been included in your previous posts, then I do apologize .
Although I do not understand how the bible verses you have mentioned relate to the pre-rapture. They are talking about what is going to happen in the last days and the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the pre-rapture, you need to provide bible verses that prove the following:
If you have included bible verses in your many posts then I must have missed them. If they have been included in your previous posts, then I do apologize .
Although I do not understand how the bible verses you have mentioned relate to the pre-rapture. They are talking about what is going to happen in the last days and the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the pre-rapture, you need to provide bible verses that prove the following:
- The rapture happens before the tribulation
- People disappear/vanish during the rapture
- The rapture secretly happens
- The rapture is a silent event (i.e. if people are raptured at night, the ones left behind will find out the next morning)
- Seven years of apocalyptic terror will overtake those left behind
May I ask, are you referring to the manuscript evidence regarding how Revelation 5:9 says "and hast redeemed US to God out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"? (where, if I recall correctly, he says "23 of the 24 manuscripts" on this verse have it as "US" and the other one leaves it blank/untranslated)?
Why do you say this is "speculation"?
Here's an old post I had put (for those interested... and perhaps if you'd care to debate any of its points, and show us what you see to be correct instead of this):
[quoting excerpt of old post, on this]
Tell me what you see differently in what I posted here (in this quote of my previous posts):
How do you explain the "24 elders" saying (from their position up in Heaven, BEFORE the first Seal is opened), "hast redeemed US [G2248 - hemas] to God by thy blood out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"
Here's the Greek (for Rev5:9) showing at BlueLetterBible - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/5/9/ss1/s_1172009 showing them saying "us [G2248 - hemas]"... "hast redeemed US...".
In past posts, I provided the link to the following info on that verse (boiled down here):
--of the 24 [total] manuscripts (of the Greek) of Revelation chpt 5, 23 of them have it as "US [G2248 - hemas]" and only ONE manuscript leaves it blank [/untranslated]. (That ONE manuscript [of 24 total manuscripts (Rev5)] that leaves it blank/untranslated is the "Codex Alexandrinus".)
Either point out why you believe I am wrong, here, or...
explain why these "24 elders" are saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (comp 1:5-6 where "US" is mentioned 3x, in a similar fashion),
and why they are wearing "stephanous/crowns" (recall, Paul said he would be awarded one "IN THAT DAY" [not the day of his DEATH
] and not to him only! Tell me, where did they GET THOSE?!),
and why they are sitting on "24 THRONES" (what is the PURPOSE of their sitting on "THRONES"?!),
and why "24" ? (could it be parallel to that which we find in the "24 courses" of priests, and the "24 courses of singers", here):
[quoting Wm Kelly on 1Chron25]
"In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."
--William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25 [see esp vv.1,6-7,31]
[note: v.1 "with harps [see Rev5], with psalteries ['earthen vessels'], and with cymbals"...hmmm...]
and I've posted before about the wording in Hebrews 9:8-9a (and how it relates to this), "8 By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishings" in v.4] yet having A STANDING [ *stasis/stasin], 9 which is a PARABLE for the present time [...]"
[ * "stasis/stasin" word RELATED TO the word in 2Th2:3, under discussion earlier in this thread (apo stasis - 'a standing away [from a previous standing]'... and the entry under "apostasia" in Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon says "LATER FORM FOR apostasis")]
[end quoting old post]
____________
Can you address what it is that you see as mere "speculation"?
2Th2:3 actually does say, "that day [from VERSE 2, the immediately preceding verse, GRAMMATICALLY) will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin BE REVEALED..."
(he is "revealed" at the START of the trib, not at its MIDDLE, nor at its END... just as other passages also correspond)
Thanks for the conversation. = )
Why do you say this is "speculation"?
Here's an old post I had put (for those interested... and perhaps if you'd care to debate any of its points, and show us what you see to be correct instead of this):
[quoting excerpt of old post, on this]
Tell me what you see differently in what I posted here (in this quote of my previous posts):
How do you explain the "24 elders" saying (from their position up in Heaven, BEFORE the first Seal is opened), "hast redeemed US [G2248 - hemas] to God by thy blood out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"
Here's the Greek (for Rev5:9) showing at BlueLetterBible - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/5/9/ss1/s_1172009 showing them saying "us [G2248 - hemas]"... "hast redeemed US...".
In past posts, I provided the link to the following info on that verse (boiled down here):
--of the 24 [total] manuscripts (of the Greek) of Revelation chpt 5, 23 of them have it as "US [G2248 - hemas]" and only ONE manuscript leaves it blank [/untranslated]. (That ONE manuscript [of 24 total manuscripts (Rev5)] that leaves it blank/untranslated is the "Codex Alexandrinus".)
Either point out why you believe I am wrong, here, or...
explain why these "24 elders" are saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (comp 1:5-6 where "US" is mentioned 3x, in a similar fashion),
and why they are wearing "stephanous/crowns" (recall, Paul said he would be awarded one "IN THAT DAY" [not the day of his DEATH
] and not to him only! Tell me, where did they GET THOSE?!),and why they are sitting on "24 THRONES" (what is the PURPOSE of their sitting on "THRONES"?!),
and why "24" ? (could it be parallel to that which we find in the "24 courses" of priests, and the "24 courses of singers", here):
[quoting Wm Kelly on 1Chron25]
"In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."
--William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25 [see esp vv.1,6-7,31]
[note: v.1 "with harps [see Rev5], with psalteries ['earthen vessels'], and with cymbals"...hmmm...]
and I've posted before about the wording in Hebrews 9:8-9a (and how it relates to this), "8 By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishings" in v.4] yet having A STANDING [ *stasis/stasin], 9 which is a PARABLE for the present time [...]"
[ * "stasis/stasin" word RELATED TO the word in 2Th2:3, under discussion earlier in this thread (apo stasis - 'a standing away [from a previous standing]'... and the entry under "apostasia" in Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon says "LATER FORM FOR apostasis")]
[end quoting old post]
____________
Can you address what it is that you see as mere "speculation"?
2Th2:3 actually does say, "that day [from VERSE 2, the immediately preceding verse, GRAMMATICALLY) will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin BE REVEALED..."
(he is "revealed" at the START of the trib, not at its MIDDLE, nor at its END... just as other passages also correspond)
Thanks for the conversation. = )
... and note what God uses (and to what end/purpose):
Habakkuk 1:6,12b -
6 For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans [i.e. the Babylonians]
that ruthless and impetuous nation
which marches through the breadth of the earth
to seize dwellings not their own.
[...]
O LORD, You have appointed them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians]
to execute judgment;
O Rock, You have established them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians]
for correction.
[may the readers recall: "the TIMES of the Gentiles" refers to "Gentile domination over Israel," which STARTED in 606/605bc re: Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb (king of Babylon) as "head of gold," and which will not CONCLUDE until the END of the future TRIB YRS, per Rev11:2 (Lk21:24)... and pertains to the "Jerusalem... trodden down of the Gentiles" thing ]
Habakkuk 1:6,12b -
6 For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans [i.e. the Babylonians]
that ruthless and impetuous nation
which marches through the breadth of the earth
to seize dwellings not their own.
[...]
O LORD, You have appointed them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians]
to execute judgment;
O Rock, You have established them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians]
for correction.
[may the readers recall: "the TIMES of the Gentiles" refers to "Gentile domination over Israel," which STARTED in 606/605bc re: Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb (king of Babylon) as "head of gold," and which will not CONCLUDE until the END of the future TRIB YRS, per Rev11:2 (Lk21:24)... and pertains to the "Jerusalem... trodden down of the Gentiles" thing
]
ON revelation whoever not take the mark Will be punish
Not take the mark mean obe God
Why God punish people that obey Him?
1.The fact that no one has been able so far to provide me bible verses that the rapture happens before the tribulation is one of the reasons to believe that that we will go through the tribulation
2. However, may you please refer to the following bible verse
Revelation 7:14
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
3. 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 does not talk about the rapture, but the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord Jesus Christ comes after the tribulation and there are those who are alive who he will take to heaven when he comes back. This means that they will have gone through the tribulation and survived to see the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
4. The bible does say that some will be beheaded during the tribulation and will die because they refused to receive the mark of the beast and did not worship the beast. The only reason that they were beheaded during the tribulation is because they were not raptured before the tribulation.
Revelation 20:4
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
5. The bible also says that the tribulation will be great and will be shortened for the elect’s sake.
Matthew 24:19-20
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
6. @throughfaith We know that the elect are not only the Jews because they will be gathered together when Jesus Christ comes back after the tribulation and the bible does not say that it is only the Jews that go through the tribulation.
Matthew 24:31
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
2. However, may you please refer to the following bible verse
Revelation 7:14
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
3. 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 does not talk about the rapture, but the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord Jesus Christ comes after the tribulation and there are those who are alive who he will take to heaven when he comes back. This means that they will have gone through the tribulation and survived to see the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
4. The bible does say that some will be beheaded during the tribulation and will die because they refused to receive the mark of the beast and did not worship the beast. The only reason that they were beheaded during the tribulation is because they were not raptured before the tribulation.
Revelation 20:4
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
5. The bible also says that the tribulation will be great and will be shortened for the elect’s sake.
Matthew 24:19-20
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
6. @throughfaith We know that the elect are not only the Jews because they will be gathered together when Jesus Christ comes back after the tribulation and the bible does not say that it is only the Jews that go through the tribulation.
Matthew 24:31
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
As I've said in past posts, the purpose of the tribulation period is two-fold (or, IOW, has more than one purpose):
--to bring Israel into the new covenant (some will come to faith within the trib yrs [following "our Rapture"], while others will not, as we can see Scripture showing to be the case); and those of them who DO come to faith (what Dan12:1-4,10 calls "THE WISE" who, note in the passage, go on to DO SOMETHING IN PARTICULAR, in those trib yrs [see v.3b especially, along with v.10a, and v.10c regarding "the WISE [of Israel, PER CONTEXT]"])... It is these who will be DOING the INVITING (that is, TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [i.e. the EARTHLY MK age, which follows the trib yrs]... (distinct from "the MARRIAGE," see)... So this particular "INVITATION" is what we see in Matt24:14[26:13] and other passages [esp. like Matt22:8-14, etc]); and
--to judge the unbelieving world, while bringing those who come to faith [in/during/within that future, specific, limited time-period] into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (the ones who are "still-alive" at the END of the trib, will ENTER the MK in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children... Dan12:12 is one of about 8-10 "BLESSED" passages that speak to this very point; And those saints [having come to faith following "our Rapture"/in the trib yrs] who will have died during the trib yrs, will be "resurrected" FOR it, that is, be resurrected to be present FOR the MK age)--
In fact, Paul (in 2Th1 & 2) is CONTRASTING those who will NOT be coming to faith within those future [7] trib yrs, to those who WILL be coming to faith in those future [7] trib yrs--Recall, that wherever the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the SAME CONTEXTS, they are referring to the SAME TIME-PERIOD (and this is the case in the 2Th1 & 2 section, both chpts where BOTH of these phrases are used, and which refer to a TIME-PERIOD unfolding upon the earth, rather than a mere "24-hr day"... defining this phrase biblically is imperative to grasping what Paul is actually conveying here, in these 2 chpts)
[so... even pre-tribbers (like myself) see both believer AND unbelievers IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs, but that the believers are those who will have come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], and is not speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those 'saved' 'in this PRESENT AGE [SINGULAR]'--Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]);
In fact, "our Rapture" will be a PRIMARY IMPETUS that brings Israel to faith in their Messiah (Jesus)... I am unsure why so many oppose the thought of it. [see again my post on Hosea 5:14-15-6:3 and His purposes, for this... or maybe I will go try to find that one and post it again... we'll see, if I get a chance to... = ) ])
--to bring Israel into the new covenant (some will come to faith within the trib yrs [following "our Rapture"], while others will not, as we can see Scripture showing to be the case); and those of them who DO come to faith (what Dan12:1-4,10 calls "THE WISE" who, note in the passage, go on to DO SOMETHING IN PARTICULAR, in those trib yrs [see v.3b especially, along with v.10a, and v.10c regarding "the WISE [of Israel, PER CONTEXT]"])... It is these who will be DOING the INVITING (that is, TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [i.e. the EARTHLY MK age, which follows the trib yrs]... (distinct from "the MARRIAGE," see)... So this particular "INVITATION" is what we see in Matt24:14[26:13] and other passages [esp. like Matt22:8-14, etc]); and
--to judge the unbelieving world, while bringing those who come to faith [in/during/within that future, specific, limited time-period] into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (the ones who are "still-alive" at the END of the trib, will ENTER the MK in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children... Dan12:12 is one of about 8-10 "BLESSED" passages that speak to this very point; And those saints [having come to faith following "our Rapture"/in the trib yrs] who will have died during the trib yrs, will be "resurrected" FOR it, that is, be resurrected to be present FOR the MK age)--
In fact, Paul (in 2Th1 & 2) is CONTRASTING those who will NOT be coming to faith within those future [7] trib yrs, to those who WILL be coming to faith in those future [7] trib yrs--Recall, that wherever the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the SAME CONTEXTS, they are referring to the SAME TIME-PERIOD (and this is the case in the 2Th1 & 2 section, both chpts where BOTH of these phrases are used, and which refer to a TIME-PERIOD unfolding upon the earth, rather than a mere "24-hr day"... defining this phrase biblically is imperative to grasping what Paul is actually conveying here, in these 2 chpts)
[so... even pre-tribbers (like myself) see both believer AND unbelievers IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs, but that the believers are those who will have come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], and is not speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those 'saved' 'in this PRESENT AGE [SINGULAR]'--Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]);
In fact, "our Rapture" will be a PRIMARY IMPETUS that brings Israel to faith in their Messiah (Jesus)... I am unsure why so many oppose the thought of it. [see again my post on Hosea 5:14-15-6:3 and His purposes, for this... or maybe I will go try to find that one and post it again... we'll see, if I get a chance to... = ) ])
Romans 3:29-30 -
"29 Or is He the God of Jews only, not also of Gentiles? Yes, also of Gentiles, 30 since indeed God is the One who will justify the circumcision by [ek] faith and the uncircumcision through [dia] the same faith."
[take note of what the words "circumcision" and "uncircumcision" refer to, in this text]
"29 Or is He the God of Jews only, not also of Gentiles? Yes, also of Gentiles, 30 since indeed God is the One who will justify the circumcision by [ek] faith and the uncircumcision through [dia] the same faith."
[take note of what the words "circumcision" and "uncircumcision" refer to, in this text]
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You're not grasping the definition of "the Day of the Lord," which basically is:
"a period-of-time [not merely 24-hrs in duration] of JUDGMENTs [unfolding upon the earth], followed by a period-of-time [ALSO not merely 24-hrs in duration] of BLESSINGs [on the earth]" (i.e. entirely earthly-located)...
It *INCLUDES* ALL three parts of the following:
1) the 7-yr tribulation period unfolding upon the earth, aka the 70th-Week of Daniel (the "DARK / DARKNESS / IN THE NIGHT" aspect); and
2) His Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect); and
3) His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect)...
ALL THREE OF THESE [together] make up what is called "the Day of the Lord" [TIME-PERIOD of MUCH DURATION with MUCH transpiring within it]...
IOW, what follows the DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT [part] is the FULL GLORY OF THE DAY/DAYLIGHT/DAYTIME [part]...
"The Church which is His body" is caught up just prior to its ARRIVAL (its ARRIVAL/the TIME-PERIOD'S ARRIVAL "so cometh as a thief"... that is, "IN THE NIGHT" [see also Dan7:7 and Gen46:2 (etc) that I've posted on before] which is also when/same-time-slot the "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/parousia" [2Th2:9a] of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME *also* commences to play out upon the earth, over the course of those 7 years,
when he is "revealed" at the START of that time-period,
i.e. SEAL#1 /
aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 /
aka Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception] /
aka Dan9:26b/27a-b-c [(a) "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"]).
And just as in Noah's day, the warnings (as well as the "INVITING" [to the MK-age]) will be given/going out throughout that time-period [the trib yrs] (based on the already-written Word of God, but proclaimed within the future trib yrs [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]) FOR A PURPOSE... and that is not for the purpose of saying "100% of y'all are gonna DIE AS 'LOST/UNSAVED' persons with absolutely ZERO 'HOPE,' so that the MK-age can be populated by exactly NO ONE! and really, it has no reason at all to exist [despite Scripture telling us that it will! ]" Um. No!
You seem to be leaving off the "...followed by a period-of-time of BLESSINGs" aspect, that those who will HEED HIS WORD (having found themselves [existing] IN the trib yrs) will come to ENTER INTO [that is, the MK age]...
Others (whom God already knows are hardened before they enter the trib yrs,) Scripture says [of them, in particular] "He SHALL SEND TO THEM a working of delusion for THEM to believe what is FALSE [/the pseudei], in order that all those not having believed the truth but having delighted in unrighteousness should be judged." That is, in/during/within the trib yrs.
Read again Rev19:15b [and its "FUTURE TENSE" to that point in time, of the chronology--"nations" exist on the earth... a great many passages (which some tend to IMPROPERLY APPLY to "the Church which is Hs body" and INCORRECTLY make into "Rapture" passages) are actually "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH" / [and] "RETURN" passages, which are speaking (often) of "STILL-LIVING" saints/"the righteous" who will ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies (capable of reproducing/bearing children) commencing upon His "RETURN" there (without their ever having lifted off the earth, as WE will do in "our Rapture"--completely distinct time-slots!) These will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture".
Read carefully again passages such as Hosea 5:14-6:3 and pay special attention to the chronology [and timing] issues (re: Israel) in that text, for example.
"a period-of-time [not merely 24-hrs in duration] of JUDGMENTs [unfolding upon the earth], followed by a period-of-time [ALSO not merely 24-hrs in duration] of BLESSINGs [on the earth]" (i.e. entirely earthly-located)...
It *INCLUDES* ALL three parts of the following:
1) the 7-yr tribulation period unfolding upon the earth, aka the 70th-Week of Daniel (the "DARK / DARKNESS / IN THE NIGHT" aspect); and
2) His Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect); and
3) His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect)...
ALL THREE OF THESE [together] make up what is called "the Day of the Lord" [TIME-PERIOD of MUCH DURATION with MUCH transpiring within it]...
IOW, what follows the DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT [part] is the FULL GLORY OF THE DAY/DAYLIGHT/DAYTIME [part]...
"The Church which is His body" is caught up just prior to its ARRIVAL (its ARRIVAL/the TIME-PERIOD'S ARRIVAL "so cometh as a thief"... that is, "IN THE NIGHT" [see also Dan7:7 and Gen46:2 (etc) that I've posted on before] which is also when/same-time-slot the "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/parousia" [2Th2:9a] of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME *also* commences to play out upon the earth, over the course of those 7 years,
when he is "revealed" at the START of that time-period,
i.e. SEAL#1 /
aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 /
aka Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception] /
aka Dan9:26b/27a-b-c [(a) "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"]).
And just as in Noah's day, the warnings (as well as the "INVITING" [to the MK-age]) will be given/going out throughout that time-period [the trib yrs] (based on the already-written Word of God, but proclaimed within the future trib yrs [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]) FOR A PURPOSE... and that is not for the purpose of saying "100% of y'all are gonna DIE AS 'LOST/UNSAVED' persons with absolutely ZERO 'HOPE,' so that the MK-age can be populated by exactly NO ONE! and really, it has no reason at all to exist [despite Scripture telling us that it will!
]" Um. No!You seem to be leaving off the "...followed by a period-of-time of BLESSINGs" aspect, that those who will HEED HIS WORD (having found themselves [existing] IN the trib yrs) will come to ENTER INTO [that is, the MK age]...
Others (whom God already knows are hardened before they enter the trib yrs,) Scripture says [of them, in particular] "He SHALL SEND TO THEM a working of delusion for THEM to believe what is FALSE [/the pseudei], in order that all those not having believed the truth but having delighted in unrighteousness should be judged." That is, in/during/within the trib yrs.
Read again Rev19:15b [and its "FUTURE TENSE" to that point in time, of the chronology--"nations" exist on the earth... a great many passages (which some tend to IMPROPERLY APPLY to "the Church which is Hs body" and INCORRECTLY make into "Rapture" passages) are actually "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH" / [and] "RETURN" passages, which are speaking (often) of "STILL-LIVING" saints/"the righteous" who will ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies (capable of reproducing/bearing children) commencing upon His "RETURN" there (without their ever having lifted off the earth, as WE will do in "our Rapture"--completely distinct time-slots!) These will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture".
Read carefully again passages such as Hosea 5:14-6:3 and pay special attention to the chronology [and timing] issues (re: Israel) in that text, for example.
Most of us who have not fallen for the unbiblical rapture nonsense are Amill. I think there are very few post-mills left, simply because, unlike the 19th century, which envisioned things getting better and better, the 20th century showed a rapid slide into World Wars, the Great Depression and famines etc., and that humanity was not going to usher in the return of Christ!
The rapture is not found in the Bible. And don't quote harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17, which is a verb, not a noun, and pulls 1 word with an iffy meaning out of context of the verse, if you read Greek. I can post a lot more from Greek showing that there is no rapture, and Jesus returns once, at his second coming!
The rapture is not found in the Bible. And don't quote harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17, which is a verb, not a noun, and pulls 1 word with an iffy meaning out of context of the verse, if you read Greek. I can post a lot more from Greek showing that there is no rapture, and Jesus returns once, at his second coming!