Plea not to receive mark of the beast because of waiting for rapture

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TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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And don't quote harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17, which is a verb, not a noun,
Of course it is a verb (was anyone in this thread stating that it is not a verb but a noun? I haven't seen anyone say that, but perhaps you are just making comment, unrelated to what anyone has posted here)

... I sometimes quote from Thayer's Greek Lexicon at BibleHub, this portion (about the word "TOGETHER" in 1Th4:17):

"In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([meaning] 'at the same time') and must be joined to the verb."

[the "verb" being "harpagēsometha / harpazó [G726]" (what is commonly termed "raptured" by many... I even use it, as most at least have a general grasp of what the convo entails when discussing it... however, Paul speaks of this general event in more than just the one verse commonly thought of [1Th4:17] and uses various terms and phrases to do so--both by nouns AND this verb ;) ... so I do not fault ppl when they refer to it in "noun"-terms)]
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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Your entire deal is; "there is only one coming and the second coming is the rapture."

(Which is destroyed in mat 24 and rev 14)

You stand in a wrecked smashed doctrine and act like you have high ground.

Your cliche centered stance is beyond weak.


There Will Be No Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Jesus Dissolves It By Fire!

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved
, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God
, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 
Jun 25, 2020
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[continuing from last post... on the same point]

[quoting another old post]


Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['hast redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:

[see @ this vid ( approx 9-min vid total ) :


--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]


[end quoting old post]
____________


... keeping in mind what I've put in other posts (I think in this thread [?])
about how Rev1:1 says,

"...to shew unto His servants
things which must come to pass [<--comp. this phrase with 1:19c and 4:1]
IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..."

[note: NOT things which would transpire over the course of some near-2000 years, as the Historicist has it; nor things which would take place "immediateLY [adverb]" nor "soon [adverb]" as the Preterist has it... but "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... i.e. the future, specific, limited time-period (7-yrs) that immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19]
Hello TheDivineWatermark

I see that you mentioned certain individuals such as Kenneth S Wuest, E Schuyler, David Hocking etc. So I assume that you believe in the pre-tribulation rapture because of their influence?

There is nothing wrong with reading books and listening to sermons. However, it is also a good idea to read interpretations from both those who are opposed and those who are against the pre-rapture (or any other subject) and in that way you will get a more balanced view about the subject.

Individuals are bias and tend towards an interpretation of the bible that suits them.

There is nothing wrong in reading other people’s interpretation, but you should also read the bible yourself and ask the Holy Spirit what the true interpretation is and decide afterwards whose interpretation is more accurate.
 
Jun 25, 2020
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It is obvious by your use of the phrase "the rapture theory" that you might want to take longer before you make your conclusions. It is not wrong to wait until you have learned more before deciding one way or the other. I think you might mean "pre-tribulation rapture theory" but you say "rapture theory" instead which is not a little mistake. The fact that there will be a generation of believers who will be alive and not see death and be changed into a glorified state equal to the resurrected saints and rise and meet the Lord in the air is an event that is not up for debate. Therefore to state that you do not believe in a rapture is like saying you don't believe in a second coming of Christ. Since you can make such a mistake without noticing it, I would take it as a sign to yourself that you are not yet expert enough on the subject to discount even the pre-tribulation rapture theory and give yourself more time and study. However if you do choose to reject the pre-tribulation theory please do not fall into the sin of condemning others who do of believing doctrines of demons or being tools of satan. Those who react this way are showing that their opinions about the rapture are irrelevant because they are not ready for the second coming of Jesus. They are in dire need of understanding how to love their brothers and not judge them for their eschatological views. I might have already told you this, I seem to be responding to many "anti-rapture" evangelists lately
Hello Scribe

I agree with you that there will be a generation of believers who will be alive and not see death and be changed into a glorified bodies and rise and meet the Lord in the air.

However, I believe that this will happen at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ when I read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.

Based on this, it can be concluded that I believe in the post tribulation rapture.

According to Google, the word rapture means the transporting of believers to heaven at the Second Coming of Christ. This definition is in agreement to what is described in the book of Thessalonians.

The problem is that preachers/pastors have also included that the rapture involves people disappearing and the rapture is a silent event that happens secretly. They have also added that the tribulation is 7 years.

These additional teachings are contrary to the bible which describes the event as a loud event (because you hear the shout with the voice of the archangel and sound of the trumpet). It is not a secret event because everyone will see Jesus coming in the clouds. The bible does not mention us disappearing, but being changed in a moment (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). The bible does not specify how long the tribulation will be and Jesus said that it will be actually shortened for the elect’s sake (Matthew 24:19-20). So I am not sure where the 7 years of tribulation comes from.

Therefore because of these additional teachings, I cannot say I believe the rapture because I will have to believe all of the components.

If preachers were only preaching that we go up to heaven and are changed and meet our Lord Jesus Christ in the air, then I would say that I believe in the post tribulation rapture.

I have requested the bible verses of both the pre-tribulation and post tribulation rapture because both of these raptures include these additional teachings of the event being silent, secret, and people disappearing/vanishing etc. I am sorry if I caused confusion.

I do not condemn those who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, however, I have asked for bible verses that state that we will meet the Lord in air before the tribulation and I still have not been provided these bible verses from anyone including from yourself.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Hello TheDivineWatermark
I see that you mentioned certain individuals such as Kenneth S Wuest, E Schuyler, David Hocking etc. So I assume that you believe in the pre-tribulation rapture because of their influence?
There is nothing wrong with reading books and listening to sermons. However,[...]
[...]
but you should also read the bible yourself and ask the Holy Spirit what the true interpretation is and decide afterwards whose interpretation is more accurate.
No. I believed "pre-trib" LONG before I'd ever heard of "them" ^ ... I simply quote/post some of their work here so as to provide convenient studies for others to examine "to see whether these things are so" and to provide oppt'y for others (in these discussion threads) to present something to the contrary, should they deem these things "unbiblical" in some way.

Personally, I've studied the Subject from Scripture for 40+ years, and have never come across anything that would cause me to believe otherwise... whether directly from Scripture, or from those arguing against it (like here, in these discussion boards... which I've participated in for some 25+ years)... and in fact, each time I study it more and more deeply, the more I can see/understand in Scripture that cements it.

The problem enters when people "define" terms in the Bible by means of sources OUTSIDE of Scripture, rather than IN/FROM the Scriptures themselves, such as (for example) the "Amill-teachings" do with the phrase "the Day of the Lord" which they've made up their own [incorrect] definition regarding... and others merely copy-cat what they've heard from them (and other "like teachings/teachers") as you point out... instead of digging into Scripture itself (because it is HARD WORK to do :D ), and these are the kinds of things (after biblical study, myself) that I like to share with others here (which, they then freely can choose to present what they believe is a more biblical case... and endeavor to convince me of such--that's what I see these convos are for, after all...). But like I said, in all those many yrs, I've never seen any good biblical arguments showing something different...

____________



Did I point out (to you) the 9x that the word "stasin/stasis [G4714]" is used, which word, in 8 [out of 9x] of its occurrences, means:

"a popular uprising; figuratively, controversy -- dissension, insurrection, ..., uproar. ... strife... a rebel, revolutionist"


...but not in its 9th occurrence--please see that 9th occurrence here (at the bottom of the LIST to the right at link):

https://biblehub.com/str/greek/4714.htm



...so what does that 9th occurrence mean? __________________________
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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The bible does not specify how long the tribulation will be and Jesus said that it will be actually shortened for the elect’s sake (Matthew 24:19-20).
Consider the following (and I realize this only addresses a portion of your stated issues):

Matthew 24:22 [and Mk13:20] -

Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Unless those days were limited [G2856], no one would survive. But those days will be limited [G2856] because of the elect."


International Standard Version

"If those days hadn't been limited [G2856], no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be limited [G2856]."



"G2856 - Definition: to curtail"

[iow, to not let it go beyond the allotted time-period, or else no one would survive (i.e. to ENTER the MK age in mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children)...; Thus, why I am often calling it "the future, specific, LIMITED time-period immediately preceding and LEADING UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom which will commence upon His "RETURN" there (see again Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]--note: not a "rapture" context)]


____________

... and that is just one small point [another one] from my own personal study on this Subject that consists of something like 25-30 pages-worth of points, on this overall topic (eschatology)... there's no way I could post it all in one giant posting... that's the drawback of online discussion forums... the readers can only catch one small point at a time, not realizing that "mountains of evidence" is at back of it but which simply cannot be taken in all at once (due to the format), so they think their own "mountain" (they can SEE) surely swamps what little is presented at any given post... if that makes sense. = )


Anyway, thanks for the conversation = ) (even though I do realize that point of yours was addressed to another poster :) )
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Hello Scribe

The bible does not specify how long the tribulation will be and Jesus said that it will be actually shortened for the elect’s sake (Matthew 24:19-20). So I am not sure where the 7 years of tribulation comes from.
Greetings Godcares!

The word of God does indeed specify how long the tribulation will be.

In Daniel 9:24-27, there is a decree of seventy seven year periods pronounced upon Israel and Jerusalem.

=============================================================
Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah,g the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.
=============================================================

7 sevens (49 years) = Restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem

62 sevens (434 years) = 7 sevens + 62 sevens = 483 years, at the end of which, the Messiah was cut of (Christ crucified)

Then the last seven years is described:

==============================================================
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." - (Dan.9:27)

In Matthew 24:15-22, Jesus quotes Daniel 9:27 with the following:

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.
==============================================================

So, the time period of the tribulation is establish as being seven years in length, which is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods, with the setting up of the abomination being the middle point and which begins the great tribulation. That last seven years will be initiated by that prince, who is the antichrist, when he confirms his strong covenant for one seven with Israel, which will allow them to build their temple and begin once again to sacrifice according to the law.

This seven year period is also referred to in Revelation, as demonstrated below:

=============================================================
"But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months. And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days.

"But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

"The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months."
============================================================

42 months, 1260 days and a time, times and half a time, each equal 3 1/2 years in 30 day monthly increments and is referring to the first and last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

So the seven years begins with the prince/antichrist establishing his seven year covenant, with the great tribulation beginning when that abomination is set up in the holy place in the temple in the middle of the seven years.

"If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

The verse above is misunderstood by many. Jesus is not saying that the seven years or the last 3 1/2 years is going to be shortened, for that would make God out to be a liar since seven years has already been established. What the verse is saying is that, if that seven year period and specifically that last 3 1/2 years was allowed go go on any longer than that specified time, then no one would be left alive. In other words, the seven years with its last 3 1/2 years being the great tribulation, is the shortened version. If it was allowed to go on any longer than that, no one would be saved.

God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will be carried out during the entire seven years, with the last 3 1/2 years being the worst, ergo, the great tribulation. This will be in addition to the plagues that the two witnesses bring upon the earth, which I believe will take place during the first 3 1/2 years.

Now regarding that seven year period, there is additional time mentioned in Daniel 12:11-12, not for God's wrath, but I believe will be for pre-millennial business:

"And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

1290 days would be 30 days past the 3 1/2 year mark

1,335 days would be 45 days past the 1290 days and 75 days beyond the 3 1/2 year mark

I believe that during those extra 75 days, pre-millennial business will be taking place by the Lord, such as the judgment of the sheep and the goats and when the Lord settles disputes between the nations who will enter into the millennial kingdom and any other issues that will need to be taken care of.

We also know that Jesus will not return to the earth until God's wrath has been completed, which is after the seventh bowl has been poured out.

And regarding the abomination that causes the desolation of Jerusalem and all of Judea, I believe that it is also mentioned in the book of Revelation, not by name, but by description:

"Because of the signs he was given to perform on behalf of the first beast, he deceived those who dwell on the earth, telling them to make an image to the beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet had lived. The second beast was permitted to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship it to be killed."

I believe that the image mentioned above, is that abomination that will be set up in the holy place within the temple.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Hello Scribe

I agree with you that there will be a generation of believers who will be alive and not see death and be changed into a glorified bodies and rise and meet the Lord in the air.

However, I believe that this will happen at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ when I read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.

Based on this, it can be concluded that I believe in the post tribulation rapture.

According to Google, the word rapture means the transporting of believers to heaven at the Second Coming of Christ. This definition is in agreement to what is described in the book of Thessalonians.

The problem is that preachers/pastors have also included that the rapture involves people disappearing and the rapture is a silent event that happens secretly. They have also added that the tribulation is 7 years.

These additional teachings are contrary to the bible which describes the event as a loud event (because you hear the shout with the voice of the archangel and sound of the trumpet). It is not a secret event because everyone will see Jesus coming in the clouds. The bible does not mention us disappearing, but being changed in a moment (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). The bible does not specify how long the tribulation will be and Jesus said that it will be actually shortened for the elect’s sake (Matthew 24:19-20). So I am not sure where the 7 years of tribulation comes from.

Therefore because of these additional teachings, I cannot say I believe the rapture because I will have to believe all of the components.

If preachers were only preaching that we go up to heaven and are changed and meet our Lord Jesus Christ in the air, then I would say that I believe in the post tribulation rapture.

I have requested the bible verses of both the pre-tribulation and post tribulation rapture because both of these raptures include these additional teachings of the event being silent, secret, and people disappearing/vanishing etc. I am sorry if I caused confusion.

I do not condemn those who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, however, I have asked for bible verses that state that we will meet the Lord in air before the tribulation and I still have not been provided these bible verses from anyone including from yourself.
""I do not condemn those who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, however, I have asked for bible verses that state that we will meet the Lord in air before the tribulation and I still have not been provided these bible verses from anyone including from yourself.""

I post them over and over as do others.

The rapture in no way resembles the second coming
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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""I do not condemn those who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, however, I have asked for bible verses that state that we will meet the Lord in air before the tribulation and I still have not been provided these bible verses from anyone including from yourself.""

I post them over and over as do others.

The rapture in no way resembles the second coming
Hello Absolutely!

For the most part, understanding the timing of the church being gathered prior to the tribulation period, is a matter of understanding the underlying principle.

First of all, it is important to understand what the tribulation period is, which is the time when God pours out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is this time of God's wrath that the majority of Revelation is covering, i.e. the events which must take place is quickness.

Something else that needs to be made clear, is that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. And because God's wrath is going to come upon all those who dwell upon the face of the whole earth, then the church must be removed prior to said wrath, which is initiated by the opening of the first seal. For it is the Lamb who will be opening them.

Those who claim that the church will be on the earth and exposed to God's wrath, would have the righteous punished with the wicked and God doesn't do that. He didn't do it when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and He didn't do it to Noah and his family. Since God's wrath will affect every person on the planet earth, then there would be no ark to get into and no small city to flee to. Therefore, just based on this principle alone the church must be gathered prior to the tribulation period. However, if you want a specific scripture, the following is as close as you are going to get:

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

The scripture above was written in the letter to the church of Philadelphia, which have been long dead for 2,000 years. Therefore, the promise to keep us out of that hour of trial, is to those overcoming believers who will be living just prior to that hour of trial, who will be kept from it. And the way in which they will be kept from it, will be according to the Lord's promise where the dead will rise first and the those who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them, where He will take us back to the Father's house as promised in John 14:1-3.

==============================================================================
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! - Rom.5:9

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. - I Thess.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. - I Thess.5:9

"While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
================================================================================

"But you, brothers" infers the opposite of not escaping.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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l used to believe in the rapture and now I do not after re-examining the bible and realizing that there is not enough biblical evidence.

Mark of the beast
If the rapture theory is not true, then when the beast tells us to receive his mark, then many pastors will tell Christians that this mark could not be the mark described in the book of Revelation, because the rapture must first come. They will tell Christians that since the rapture has not come then mark could not be the mark of the beast.

This will result in thousands if not millions of Christians receiving the actual mark of the beast because they would be waiting for a rapture that will not happen. This is a scary thought!

Those who believe in the rapture, especially the pre-rapture are more in danger of receiving the mark of the beast than those who do not believe that the rapture theory is true.
Nice thinking out of the box. If they have it wrong on the rapture, then perhaps they have it wrong on the mark too. What if the mark is already here? Would you really be surprised?