When are we saved ?

[throughfaith]

Salvation is by grace .................................................................................... through God's gift of faith and for God's prepared good works.

God's gift of faith will materialise if He granted grace beforehand, not faith of my own working. Grace by God is the cause, and faith from God as well as good works prepared by God is the effect.

Grace is not a ' Force '
It just means ' not by works '
G ods
R iches
A t
C hrist's
E xpense

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27¶Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

 

[BenjaminN]

But he doesn't ' elect ' anyone to be saved in eternity past . The bible never says this ,so its not an issue .

Matthew 12 (ESV)

18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

 

[BenjaminN]

Grace is not a ' Force '
It just means ' not by works '
G ods
R iches
A t
C hrist's
E xpense

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27¶Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Grace means by God's work, not by man's work. Grace wasn't 'not by works', it took God's son to work to give his life, so we may receive the gift of God's grace.

 

[throughfaith]

Matthew 12 (ESV)

18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Jesus ? He chose Jesus to be saved in eternity past ?

 

[throughfaith]

Grace means by God's work, not by man's work. Grace wasn't 'not by works', it took God's son to work to give his life, so we may receive the gift of God's grace.

Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

 

[BenjaminN]

Salvation is a gift from God,, the Giver chooses whom he giveth.

 

[BenjaminN]

BenjaminN said:

Matthew 12 (ESV)

18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Jesus ? He chose Jesus to be saved in eternity past ?

God chose Yeshua ha'Maschiach / Jesus the Messiah for working his salvation of grace. Just like God chose our Redeemer, he also chose the redeemed.

 

[throughfaith]

BenjaminN said:
Matthew 12 (ESV)

18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.




God chose Yeshua ha'Maschiach / Jesus the Messiah for working his salvation of grace. Just like God chose our Redeemer, he also chose the redeemed.

That's the bad hermanutic called ' inductive reasoning ' . That one verse actually highlights what I'm saying ' elect' means. Its to serve , service and purpose . Jesus Came to SERVE . Notice it says ' servant ' and what his ' purpose ' was . Thats what ' elect ' means . Every time you see elect or chosen ask ,for and to do what?

 

[BenjaminN]

That's the bad hermanutic called ' inductive reasoning ' . That one verse actually highlights what I'm saying ' elect' means. Its to serve , service and purpose . Jesus Came to SERVE . Notice it says ' servant ' and what his ' purpose ' was . Thats what ' elect ' means . Every time you see elect or chosen ask ,for and to do what?

And you are not practicing 'inductive reasoning" on this forum? Just sit back enjoy the God-given faith you have, and realise that it was a gift, you had nothing to do with receiving the gift.

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[throughfaith]

And you are not practicing 'inductive reasoning" on this forum? Just sit back enjoy the God-given faith you have, and realise that it was a gift, you had nothing to do with receiving the gift.

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Faith is not the gift in Eph 2 . Great if that was the case ,but like everything else ,we should only believe what the bible says . Not doctrines of men .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Look at the context and then look at what it says about God's election.'

1 Corinthians 1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

THE CONTEXT IS ENTIRELY SALVIFIC, FOLKS

now IN THAT CONTEXT, take a look at how Paul uses the words caling and choosing.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Paul is talking about GOD CHOOSING in the context of salvation, fully in the context of salvation, and in NO OTHER CONTEXT.

It’s funny, I can’t see this thread unless It is linked through a like or quote. Probably better off. let the false accusers continue to accuse you of calvinism. Again, I just pray the new folks who visit are not turned off by Christianity because of all this stuff..

 

[OIC1965]

But he doesn't ' elect ' anyone to be saved in eternity past . The bible never says this ,so its not an issue .

What i said is that open theism and election to be saved in eternity past are incompatible.

 

[OIC1965]

Only by having a presupposition ,could you ignore' it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.'
Any bible reader should simply see this and think " oh yeah ,thats it . We believe. And we know believing is ...erm believing. Through faith."
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27¶Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3.27

I didn't ignore anything. You're ignoring the fact that this whole context is about SALVATION, and it uses the words "God Chose" in that context.

 

[OIC1965]

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Chosen for what ? to do what ? Are you assuming " Chosen in eternity past to be saved " ? Why ? Does it say this ?

Look at the immediete context. In the immediete context, what is Paul talking about? Salvation or Service?

 

[OIC1965]

You say ///Look at the context and then look at what it says about God's election.'//// Begging the question .
Look at the context and then look at what it says about God's choosing . What has he chosen? Verse 21 . Who has he ' called ' Jews and Gentiles through the Gospel call . Then a vocational call . The Gospel is sent out to all . Not the mighty but God the gospel is for sinners . Gideon is a great example. Joanas, David . God chooses the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy.
The main point about Corinthians is ' wisdom ' . Man will deem Gods wisdom foolishness if he holds to man's wisdom . Thats it .

Looking at context is not begging the question. Paul says nothing about vocational calling in the context. The whole context is about salvific calling. That's the thing. Your system is so rigid that you can't even see what the Bible is clearly saying.

Nothing about vocational calling. The whole context is about salvation, chapters ONE AND TWO. Look at verse 23-24. Paul is clearly taliking about calling to salvation, not calling to service. Paul contrasts Jews and Greeks and those that are called. He is not talking merely God determining to save both Greeks and Jews. Context reveals to us that he is talking about the types of people that are called. The Gospel is tailor made to draw people that are poor in spirit, humble, etc. (I wonder how they get to that state, HMMM...)It is repugnant to the proud, the rich in spirit, etc. God designed it this way. He designed the Gospel to be attractive to the meek and humble and repugnant to the strong and proud souls, that no flesh should boast.

Then in chapter two he clearly states that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. And in chapter two, verse 4 He says that he did not come with eloquent words of man's wisdom, but in the demonstration of the Spirit and power. So much for your claim that the Spirit has nothing to do with the drawing of people to the Gospel.

 

[throughfaith]

I didn't ignore anything. You're ignoring the fact that this whole context is about SALVATION, and it uses the words "God Chose" in that context.

No its about man's wisdom v God's wisdom . Thats the point of corinth . It prided its self on 'wisdom '. Paul again is addressing saints. Already saved . They are still struggling with the wisdom issue . They question Paul's qualifications so to speak . They want the razzle dazzle in preaching. Complaining pauls letters are weighty but his presence is week . Some favour appolos eloquence over Paul's speaking. Its about ' speaking ' ' wisdom ' carnality, lack of growth. Schisms , factions ect ..We cannot grow by holding on to mans wisdom is the point .Every verse is not about some gnostic ideas about ' election ' before we existed . In fact the book of 1 john and colossians deal with gnosctism and its false teaching .

 

[OIC1965]

No its about man's wisdom v God's wisdom . Thats the point of corinth . It prided its self on 'wisdom '. Paul again is addressing saints. Already saved . They are still struggling with the wisdom issue . They question Paul's qualifications so to speak . They want the razzle dazzle in preaching. Complaining pauls letters are weighty but his presence is week . Some favour appolos eloquence over Paul's speaking. Its about ' speaking ' ' wisdom ' carnality, lack of growth. Schisms , factions ect ..We cannot grow by holding on to mans wisdom is the point .Every verse is not about some gnostic ideas about ' election ' before we existed . In fact the book of 1 john and colossians deal with gnosctism and its false teaching .

It's in large part about God's wisdom vs man's wisdom in that God's wisdom is the cross and man's wisdom thinks the cross is foolishness. Therefore, no one is saved by cunning arguments or persuasive speech, they are saved by the demonstration of the Spirit and God's power in preaching. 1 Corinthians 2:4. Yet in your system, there is no place for the Holy Spirit in drawing men through the Gospel, is there? Isn't that what you've been saying?

 

[throughfaith]

Look at the immediete context. In the immediete context, what is Paul talking about? Salvation or Service?

Again its about WISDOM .
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world TO CONFOUND the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world TO CONFOUND the things which are mighty;
PURPOSE NOT TO BE SAVED ..CHOSEN WHEN ? IS IT GENTILES ? IS IT JUST KINGS ? IS IT AMERICANS ?
There's nothing mentioned about being chosen before the foundation of the world. Nothing about elected to be saved before we we born. Nothing .
If you take those presuppositional lenses off your currently wearing you will not be seeing ' chosen before the foundation of the world 'in every verse . Your being triggered by buzz words .

 

[OIC1965]

Again its about WISDOM .
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world TO CONFOUND the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world TO CONFOUND the things which are mighty;

There's nothing mentioned about being chosen before the foundation of the world. Nothing about elected to be saved before we we born. Nothing .
If you take those presuppositional lenses off your currently wearing you will not be seeing ' chosen before the foundation of the world 'in every verse . Your being triggered by buzz words .

I didn't say the verse mentioned "before the foundation of the world". You're adding to my words. What I said is that this passage speaks of God choosing in a salvific context, and vocational call is nowhere to be found in the context.

It also talks about the type of people that God calls TO SALVATION. The Gospel is tailor made to draw those who have been made humble, poor in spirit, etc. Those are good gifts, and every good gift comes down from the Father of Lights, right?

1 Corinthians 2;4 shows that the Spirit indeed does work with the Gospel to draw people, which you have flatly denied in the past.

 

[throughfaith]

It's in large part about God's wisdom vs man's wisdom in that God's wisdom is the cross and man's wisdom thinks the cross is foolishness. Therefore, no one is saved by cunning arguments or persuasive speech, they are saved by the demonstration of the Spirit and God's power in preaching. 1 Corinthians 2:4. Yet in your system, there is no place for the Holy Spirit in drawing men through the Gospel, is there? Isn't that what you've been saying?

Nope its that I'm trying not to use low resolution and speak in generalities and inductive reasoning . The inductive method is how we should read . There is no verse that says the Holy Spirit draws . ( inspite of what Pink told the calvinists in his influential book . ) You keep using low resolution and going into inductive reasoning in how your interpreting each verse .