By Works

[Blue_Of_Lake]

If it was OT - but it is not OT - so I am not sure what exactly you are getting at ????

I view James as authoritative and as inspired (but not more inspired) than Paul. They are not contradictory, but complimentary.

the Spirit leads into all truth. if the Spirit speaks to your heart or mind in Any book of the Bible or even any book anywhere, then what the Spirit speaks to you (if it is indeed the Spirit, use wisdom, be careful) is Truth. God is not confined to books translated by other men and women or written by certain people in certain time-frames. a Spirit is of course Not Confined. He speaks Through and To whoever He so Chooses.

 

[mailmandan]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith, but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[Chester]

Chester, To my understanding, and the fact that all scriptures must harmonize in order to have a knowledge of the truth, which is contained in the doctrine that Jesus taught, I believe that you are correct in saying "Salvation (Greek = a deliverance) begins at the new birth and continues through one's life". We are delivered at our new birth, and we are also delivered eternally when our life on earth is finished.

Eternal deliverance is given only by God's sovereign grace, without the works of man. On the other hand, once that we have been born again, and have a fellowship with God, and then lust after the things of the world, when we are enticed by satan, we temporary lose our fellowship with God, until we repent. When God forgives us, we are delivered from the effects of that particular sin. When we are walking in the Spirit, we can be delivered by our good works, and we can also deliver those born again children of God by teaching them the knowledge of the gospel of Jesus.

1 Tim 4:16, Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine, continue in them, for in doing this, thou shalt save (deliver) thyself, and them that hear thee. There is a salvation (deliverance) in doing good works, and there is a salvation (deliverance) given only by the grace of God, without the works of mankind.

Salvation, as you define it above, (and I agree) is about being saved from our sinful life. There is the initial new birth, and then there is the ongoing walk of faith as we live for God doing good works instead of living in the misery of sin and slavery to the Devil. Ultimately heaven will be the final phase of salvation. But in all of these God is always the starting point: the author and the finisher of our faith.

We were not saved by works, are not being saved by good works, and will not ever be saved by good works: but living in victory above sin necessarily will involve living a life of good works. It is not disconnected from faith: but is integral to and intertwined with it.

I believe God forgives sin for the believer immediately when the sin is committed. Why? Because the believer is trusting in the finished blood atonement of Jesus Christ which is 100% full payment for sin. He never writes the sin down on our record: It is forgiven!

I grew up thinking that when I sin God writes it down in heaven to damn me, but when I ask for forgiveness then he takes that sin off my record. Of course, this resulted in a horrific battle with assurance.

 

[Deuteronomy]

We were not saved by works, are not being saved by good works, and will not ever be saved by good works

Agreed Our choice to do good works and live a holy, rather than sinful lifestyle as Christians, is the result/fruit of our salvation, never the cause.

These are Calvin's words, but Luther said the very same thing.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone."​

~Deut

 

[Corban]

You are probably right that "works" and "good works" are used in different ways in Scripture.

But primarily, and the way I understand and use the term "good works," is that good works can only by done by the Spirit through a person. Anything done by the flesh may look "good" but is really filthy rags!

Living by the tree of knowledge of good and evil will always produce evil works - at least the way I see it. A person may "know" what is good - but the problem is that "knowledge" before "life" (tree of life) produces evil.

I agree with this. Let's take an example. It is reported to you privately that a brother in the Church and his family have no food. Do you at once help him? Well, you have to ask the Lord (Rom.8:14). There are two scriptures that can be applied;
James 2:15-16 says;
15 "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?"
2 Thessalonians 3:10-12 says;
10 "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread."

Maybe you know which one to apply. But maybe you don't. But the Lord does. If the brother has had bad fortune, but is known to be a hard and honest worker, the answer is clear. If you don't help him and his family you ruin the Lord's testimony before the Church and the heathen. But if the brother is lazy, he has thumbed his nose at God's ordnance from the Garden of Eden and makes other brothers sweat double. This the Lord does not allow. Feeding him would overturn God's command. That ... is how easy it is to mess things up with good works.

 

[Chester]

Agreed Our choice to do good works and live a holy, rather than sinful lifestyle as Christians, is the result/fruit of our salvation, never the cause.

These are Calvin's words, but Luther said the very same thing.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone."​

~Deut

James says it this way: "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

Scripture never says we are justified by "faith alone": that is why I never say I am saved by faith alone. And in reality if a person was saved by "faith alone" then there is nothing of grace, or of the blood of Christ involved in the process. Of course Luther did not mean it that way when he said "saved by faith alone": He meant we are saved by faith and not by works - and with that I agree.

 

[Chester]

I agree with this. Let's take an example. It is reported to you privately that a brother in the Church and his family have no food. Do you at once help him? Well, you have to ask the Lord (Rom.8:14). There are two scriptures that can be applied;
James 2:15-16 says;
15 "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?"
2 Thessalonians 3:10-12 says;
10 "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread."

Maybe you know which one to apply. But maybe you don't. But the Lord does. If the brother has had bad fortune, but is known to be a hard and honest worker, the answer is clear. If you don't help him and his family you ruin the Lord's testimony before the Church and the heathen. But if the brother is lazy, he has thumbed his nose at God's ordnance from the Garden of Eden and makes other brothers sweat double. This the Lord does not allow. Feeding him would overturn God's command. That ... is how easy it is to mess things up with good works.

Good example: And I agree

Your last line is confusing though - true "good works" never mess anything up! (But I think I know what you meant! LOL!)

 

[Corban]

Good example: And I agree

Your last line is confusing though - true "good works" never mess anything up! (But I think I know what you meant! LOL!)

I think you do. Take care bro and God bless.

 

[Deuteronomy]

James says it this way: "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

Scripture never says we are justified by "faith alone": that is why I never say I am saved by faith alone. And in reality if a person was saved by "faith alone" then there is nothing of grace, or of the blood of Christ involved in the process. Of course Luther did not mean it that way when he said "saved by faith alone": He meant we are saved by faith and not by works - and with that I agree.

Hello again Chester, the Reformers used the different "Sola's" (as a way of looking at the same idea from different perspectives), but they all really meant the same thing, that we are saved by Christ Alone, by the works that 'He' did on our behalf alone (His perfectly righteous life, His death of the Cross, His Resurrection), and not by anything that we do ourselves.

It's true that the Bible does not use the phrase salvation by faith or by grace alone, but I believe that they are clearly implied by the text, don't you

Romans 4​

5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.​

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Romans 11​

6 If it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. ​

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Ephesians 2​

8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;​

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.​

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

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Titus 3​

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.​

Here is an interesting article that takes a quick (and somewhat humorous) look at the particular aspect of the Reformation's 5 Solas that I mentioned above.

The Soul of the Solas​

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

The Soul of the Solas
by R.C. Sproul Jr.
​

It puzzles me deeply that so few are puzzled deeply by the paradox. We are so used to the befuddling language that we miss its befuddling nature. It ought to stop us in our tracks and arrest our attention, like those signs I see for Fifth Third Bank. Fifth Bank I could understand. Third Bank I could understand. I could understand them merging to become Fourth Bank. But Fifth Third Bank? What does that even mean?

In like manner, how is it that when our spiritual ancestors, our theological heroes, set out to tell us one thing, they ended up telling us five things? Suppose I had lived in a cave for the last five hundred years and then met someone who wanted to get me up to speed on the Reformation and what I should believe. What if they said: “There are five things. The first one is sola. . .”? Would I not have to say: “Stop right there. If there are five, how can even one of them be called sola?”

It does, of course, in the end make perfect sense. The alones are not alone because they are talking, in a manner of speaking, on different wavelengths. An infinite line is really infinite, but it doesn’t cover everything. An infinite plane is, in a manner of speaking, even more infinite than an infinite line, but it doesn’t cover everything. What sola Scriptura is seeking to keep out isn’t grace, faith, Christ, or God’s glory. It’s trying to keep out unbiblical tradition. Grace alone doesn’t exclude the Bible, faith, Christ, or the glory of God.

In a very real sense, though they spin on different axes, these five are one. The Bible alone is God’s infallible revelation of His glory, which reveals His grace in Christ, which becomes ours through the gift of faith. God’s grace is uniquely revealed in His Word, which reveals the work of Christ, which becomes ours by faith, all redounding to His glory. The solas are precise and potent affirmations of this truth—it’s all about God. They remind us not just how we might have peace with God but that peace with God is not the full and final end of all things. They remind us that the story of the Bible isn’t simply how we who are in dire straits can make it to safety and how nice God is to play such an important role in making that happen. Instead, they remind us that He is the end, and we are the means. The story is about Him and His glory more than us and our comfort.

Jesus makes much the same point in the Sermon on the Mount. He recognizes our weaknesses. We are self-centered, concerned with ourselves and what we perceive our needs to be. So, we worry about what we will eat and what we will wear. We fret about our provision and our status. What Jesus doesn’t tell us, however, is: “Now, look, you have no need to worry about these things because you have someone on your side. Other people might need to worry, but you don’t because my Father in heaven is for you. You can pursue these things with confidence, knowing that you have the supreme advantage of having the supreme being on your side.”

What He tells us instead is surprising. He tells us to set aside our petty concerns and, depending on how you look at it, to set our minds on one or two things. He said, “Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.” Do we now have seven solas? Ought we to add the kingdom and His righteousness to the alones? By no means. These are all still together the one thing. There is an organic unity not only between the kingdom and the righteousness but between these two solas and the five solas of the Reformation. We are not failing to pursue the kingdom of God when we are seeking after His righteousness. We are not failing to pursue His righteousness when we are seeking after His kingdom. We are pursuing one thing— one way—to honor and serve our Maker and Redeemer by affirming our dependence on Him and His preeminence in all things.

The God we serve is one. As such, He calls us to follow one path. His commands are never and can never be pitted against each other. His wisdom is never and can never be pitted against itself. His grace is never and can never be pit ted against His character. When we find ourselves torn, confused, pulled in different directions, it isn’t because we are faithfully following Him but because we are not. It isn’t because we are faithfully heeding His voice but because we are not.

The two—His kingdom and His righteousness—are one as the five— the solas of the Reformation—are one as the Three—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—are One. And these three groupings are one as well. In the end, they are all about the beginning. From the beginning they have always been about the end. For our lives are and always will be bound up together in the Alpha and the Omega.

 

[Guojing]

If it was OT - but it is not OT - so I am not sure what exactly you are getting at ????

I view James as authoritative and as inspired (but not more inspired) than Paul. They are not contradictory, but complimentary.

My point is that, if James was in the OT, we would have no problem regarding his instructions as similar to how we regard Genesis 17:14, about circumcision. It was directed to the Jews but not us.

But even though James clearly directed to the 12 tribes of Israel, just because its located in the NT, we try all kinds of means to incorporate that into Christianity.

 

[know1]

Perhaps it is me, but I had difficulty following your posting.

James never mentions "saved", yet you have brought it into the discussion multiple times.

• ALL judgements in the Bible are based on WORKS (Rom.2.12, Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10; Matt.16:7, 25:31-46, Rev. 20:12-13)
• Whether a man is a believer and does good works, or an unbeliever and does good works, the works are good
• An unbeliever who does a good work is not necessarily " a subtle sly wolf in sheep's clothing". I'm think of Job who lived BEFORE Law.
• Because man ate from the Tree of Knowledge of GOOD and evil, even good works can bring death
• Within the context the good guy whose wife returned the necklace must have been really hurt. Christ will "adorn" His wife (Rev.21:2). I hope she does not refuse His desire to see His wife look beautiful.

You don't have to respond. I'm just making some observations.

I don't mind explaining myself and my position.
What I was trying to show was the two different scriptures you used had to do with works of the law and not works of faith, which is what James was writing about.
I went on to explain how faith works.
It is true, James never mentions the word, "saved", but in the KJV he does mention "save" a few times. One of which I quoted in my post to you.
"Like James said in chapter 2, verse 14, without WORKS OF FAITH, can faith alone save him?"
That is one of the five places where James mentions the word "save".
And the main reason why I used salvation so much, is mostly because many on this forum can't see beyond salvation, as that is all they know.
The person I was talking about is not a wolf in sheep's clothing because he is an unbeliever, but because of what he did and the motive behind it.
Such as asking my wife and I for a loan to cover the cost of a vehicle he purchased for our daughter without getting her approval, then trying to make it look like he never got the money. This was after he was super nice to us, inspecting our vehicle for free and other things.
The good guy's wife you are referring to is both my wife and I.
I did not find the gift appropriate, seeing we didn't know the guy for very long and we knew for what purpose the gift was given.
It was to buy his way into my wife's graces, as the man wanted to date our daughter, and neither of us approved of him, and he knew that.
And I'm not one who believes fine jewelry, clothing, and makeup is a sin.
I give my wife what ever she wants to make herself beautiful.
I am all for the children of God having the finer things in life.

 

[Poinsetta]

12 Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own. [1 Cor 9:24; 1 Tim 6:12]

Meyer, Joyce. The Everyday Life Bible (p. 1954). FaithWords. Kindle Edition.

 

[know1]

Apparently, you are quick to jump to conclusions as I was just being sarcastic. Faith without works is a dead faith. I have stated this many times over countless posts and threads. Even after that you don't know me very well. Oh well, moving forward now. Shaking the dust off my feet as I leave. This cold response of yours is a piece of work that's for sure.

I don't know you, though I have seen your posts now and then over the years, but I don't follow you or your posts, so I wouldn't know if you said anything in jest or not.
Aside from that, and if I am reading your post correctly, then again, your understanding of the works James is referring to, is still incorrect.
James is not talking about works like, ACTING as believers do, as you appear to be alluding to. Again, if I am perceiving your post correctly.
For example, going to church, praying, singing songs to the lord, teaching God's word, giving to the poor, and the like.
Are those the kind of things you are saying James is talking about concerning works of faith?
Can you give any personal examples of your acts or works of faith?
What exactly does one do, as a believer, that proves they have this biblical works of faith James speaks of?
What do you do that a nonbeliever can't do that shows your works of faith are not the same as theirs?
And what is the difference between a work of faith and a work of the law? Give an example for each, please.
I ask because most people who believe the way you do, cannot give any examples of works of faith they have done, because it looks like your are boasting about what you have done and glorifying yourself, rather than God.
If you can't give an example of a work of faith you have done, that involves God's power working in a situation you prayed for and acted on, then it most likely is simply a work of the law, and not the same kind of works James is referring to.

 

[p_rehbein]

You are wrong on both accounts.
Neither is referring to the works James speaks of.

You are WRONG in your assumptions. Your arrogant belief that ONLY YOU are capable of understanding Scripture and worthy of being the ONE TEACHER for all reveals just how wrong you are..........goodenss.............

CC is full of such arrogance.

Not only that, BUT you reveal that you are completely incompetent in Reading Comprehension.

Perhaps you should find another type of Chat Room that doesn't require a modicum of Scriptural understanding, and/or seek to receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. For, given the level of your incompetence, only HE will be able to give you correct understanding.

UNTIL THEN:

Please refrain from trying to teach ANYONE here.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The book of James was the very first NT letter ever written, before Paul, before the 4 Gospels.

No one can make such a categorical statement. It may have been written around 48 AD while the Gospel of Matthew was written around 50 AD. But these are GUESSTIMATES. Some say it was written around 67 AD.

Nonetheless, that is immaterial. The epistle of James is as much Scripture are the epistles of Paul and there is absolutely no conflict between James and Paul.

James focuses on PRACTICAL Christianity. And the whole New Testament teaches Christians that if they have no godly fruit (which includes good works) produced in their lives, then they are not really saved. James says "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (Jas 1:27)

 

[Guojing]

No one can make such a categorical statement. It may have been written around 48 AD while the Gospel of Matthew was written around 50 AD. But these are GUESSTIMATES. Some say it was written around 67 AD.

Nonetheless, that is immaterial. The epistle of James is as much Scripture are the epistles of Paul and there is absolutely no conflict between James and Paul.

James focuses on PRACTICAL Christianity. And the whole New Testament teaches Christians that if they have no godly fruit (which includes good works) produced in their lives, then they are not really saved. James says "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (Jas 1:27)

So the question remains, if James was located in the OT, would there have been so much debate on the relevance it holds for the church today?

Just because its in the NT, it took on so much added significance? It was written to the 12 tribes of Israel correct?

 

[Nehemiah6]

t was written to the 12 tribes of Israel correct?

We seem to forget that the Church began with SAVED JEWS, and continued with saved Jews for several years until Gentiles began to be added as Paul traveled throughout the Roman Empire.

James rightly addresses his epistles to HEBREW CHRISTIANS who were "scattered abroad" since he was the leading elder in the church at Jerusalem, and saw how the persecution in Jerusalem and Judea caused the scattering abroad of Hebrew Christians.

And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (Acts 8:1)

And just as James specifically targeted Hebrew Christians, Paul did the same thing in the epistle to the Hebrews (even though he was the apostle to the Gentiles). But the teachings are all CHRISTIAN TRUTHS meant for all believers (both Jews and Gentiles).

 

[Guojing]

We seem to forget that the Church began with SAVED JEWS, and continued with saved Jews for several years until Gentiles began to be added as Paul traveled throughout the Roman Empire.

James rightly addresses his epistles to HEBREW CHRISTIANS who were "scattered abroad" since he was the leading elder in the church at Jerusalem, and saw how the persecution in Jerusalem and Judea caused the scattering abroad of Hebrew Christians.

And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (Acts 8:1)

And just as James specifically targeted Hebrew Christians, Paul did the same thing in the epistle to the Hebrews (even though he was the apostle to the Gentiles). But the teachings are all CHRISTIAN TRUTHS meant for all believers (both Jews and Gentiles).

Are you a replacement theologist? You don't believe the Body of Christ has replaced Israel right?

They have different destinies.

 

[jackrosie]

We are saved by grace..after salvation work follows...we are recognised by God..therefore can please him...we should also bear fruit of the Spirit..Jesus should shine out of a believers heart....after all the Lord has taken up residence there.

Quite simple..nothing complicated...I submit my will to his will....trust gets stronger and stronger when one is continually focused on God....and walking in the Spirit.