By Works

[know1]

The works that I believe that James is referring to has more to do with helping a brother or sister in need than going to church, singing or even praying. Regarding prayer, by all means pray but if you are in the position to actually help someone instead of just praying then you should do it. The best prayer is an answered prayer, someone has to actually do the heavy lifting and this often requires blood, sweat, and tears. It requires work acting on faith. Forget about the post I was being sarcastic in, it's not that important. Let's go in peace now.

You brought up a good point about what James said concerning giving to the poor.

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so [or in like manner], faith, if it hath not [a corresponding] work, is dead, being alone.

I can see why may people think giving to the poor is one of the works of faith written in the book of James, but I don't agree with that concept.
I believe verses 15 and 16 is only metaphorically speaking about verse 17, and is not actually a work of faith.
And if you will notice, their words were empty or hollow, but specific.
I can see the person now saying, "Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled", while making the sign of the cross in front of them, before sending them on their way empty handed.
We might say to such a person, "the Lord bless you".
Both sayings would amount to the person TRYING to be religious or holy, but worthless in substance, just the same.
I added to and changed a word in verse 17 for clarity, as I believe it is interpreted incorrectly, thereby misleading.
If you look at both the example and definition of the the word, "works", one might think you have to keep giving in order to prove your words were proof of the God kind of faith, because if you did send someone away after you gave them food and clothing, how and why would you keep giving to them when both the moment and the person is gone?
Faith requires only ONE ACT OR WORK, NOT MANY UNRELATED ACTS.
And James is not telling us to prove we have faith to others, but about HOW faith works.
Who cares if people think you don't have faith, that between God and you.
What matters is that both God and you, both know and see, that you have faith and know how it works or operates.
Because verse 17 interprets the ergon as, "works", in the KJV, as in the plural form or many times over with unrelated acts, when it should be, "a work", as in the singular form, or a one time act or work.
Also note that it does not say 'OF THE FAITH', as in the general overall faith of the church, which is how, I believe, the majority interpret it to be.
I believe it is important to determine whether the word should be interpreted in the plural form or singular, because it changes the meaning of the verses itself.
So if you don't mind my asking, what do you think it should be, or do you think it doesn't matter?

 

[Guojing]

Jews who believe in Jesus their promised Messiah are Christians by definition of the word "Christian." But they are also still Jews by ethnicity and culture. And they can be called Messianic Christians, or Jewish Christians, or "of the 12 tribes of Israel", etc.

So James was writing to the 12 tribes of Israel, those that fall under the above category. However you sliced it, he was not writing to the Body of Christ. That of course does not mean we cannot learn from that letter, just like all the OT was written FOR our learning.

For the rest of us, our salvation is not dependent on believing Jesus as our promised Messiah. Jesus was only promised to Israel, not to Gentiles (Ephesians 2:11-12)

We were added into the covenant God made with Israel, by believing that Jesus died for our sins, and rose from the dead for our justification (1 Cor 15:1-4).

 

[tourist]

You brought up a good point about what James said concerning giving to the poor.

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so [or in like manner], faith, if it hath not [a corresponding] work, is dead, being alone.

I can see why may people think giving to the poor is one of the works of faith written in the book of James, but I don't agree with that concept.
I believe verses 15 and 16 is only metaphorically speaking about verse 17, and is not actually a work of faith.
And if you will notice, their words were empty or hollow, but specific.
I can see the person now saying, "Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled", while making the sign of the cross in front of them, before sending them on their way empty handed.
We might say to such a person, "the Lord bless you".
Both sayings would amount to the person TRYING to be religious or holy, but worthless in substance, just the same.
I added to and changed a word in verse 17 for clarity, as I believe it is interpreted incorrectly, thereby misleading.
If you look at both the example and definition of the the word, "works", one might think you have to keep giving in order to prove your words were proof of the God kind of faith, because if you did send someone away after you gave them food and clothing, how and why would you keep giving to them when both the moment and the person is gone?
Faith requires only ONE ACT OR WORK, NOT MANY UNRELATED ACTS.
And James is not telling us to prove we have faith to others, but about HOW faith works.
Who cares if people think you don't have faith, that between God and you.
What matters is that both God and you, both know and see, that you have faith and know how it works or operates.
Because verse 17 interprets the ergon as, "works", in the KJV, as in the plural form or many times over with unrelated acts, when it should be, "a work", as in the singular form, or a one time act or work.
Also note that it does not say 'OF THE FAITH', as in the general overall faith of the church, which is how, I believe, the majority interpret it to be.
I believe it is important to determine whether the word should be interpreted in the plural form or singular, because it changes the meaning of the verses itself.
So if you don't mind my asking, what do you think it should be, or do you think it doesn't matter?

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking but I am in full agreement with James 2:15-16 and would consider that to help a brother or sister in need would be a 'work' in verse 15 and it would be negligent and insensitive to tell a cold starving person to be warmed and filled as stated in verse 16, especially if you were in a position to actually help them. I agree that the work of verse 15 is not in itself a work of faith but rather the work is an outward manifestation of faith. In my opinion, telling a freezing starving person "God bless you" is indeed a worthless sentiment and a callous display of insensitiveity.

 

[know1]

You are WRONG in your assumptions. Your arrogant belief that ONLY YOU are capable of understanding Scripture and worthy of being the ONE TEACHER for all reveals just how wrong you are..........goodness.............

CC is full of such arrogance.

Not only that, BUT you reveal that you are completely incompetent in Reading Comprehension.

Perhaps you should find another type of Chat Room that doesn't require a modicum of Scriptural understanding, and/or seek to receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. For, given the level of your incompetence, only HE will be able to give you correct understanding.

UNTIL THEN:

Please refrain from trying to teach ANYONE here.

You seem to be spouting off about something I never said or implied.
This kind of talk and behavior is usually due to both hate toward and/or anger about someone and/or something the person said.
And such talk and behavior usually distorts and perverts their view of both the person and what was actually said and/or meant.
This, I believe, describes you and your current condition toward me and what I wrote, thereby making proper dialog difficult.
Should the disciples have told Jesus He was "arrogant" because He knew what He was talking about and spoke with authority, while condemning the Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducee's teachings?
One reason why they didn't is because Jesus backed up His words with signs following.
I'm not there in front of you to do the same, but I speak with authority on this particular subject not only because I have had signs following, but also because God taught me via a voice and knowings, after telling me where to read, what the meanings were of some scripture verses, or definitions of some words, or some words that should not have been written in the KJV, because that is my favorite version.
But just because I know what 1+1 equals and you don't, doesn't mean I'm arrogant.
It just means I know what I'm talking about.
And it would help if you would be more specific in your condemnations.
What exactly do I have wrong, and why?
It would help if you were to use and correctly interpret scripture for your argument, otherwise, your ramblings are meaningless.

 

[know1]

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking but I am in full agreement with James 2:15-16 and would consider that to help a brother or sister in need would be a 'work' in verse 15 and it would be negligent and insensitive to tell a cold starving person to be warmed and filled as stated in verse 16, especially if you were in a position to actually help them. I agree that the work of verse 15 is not in itself a work of faith but rather the work is an outward manifestation of faith. In my opinion, telling a freezing starving person "God bless you" is indeed a worthless sentiment and a callous display of insensitiveity.

Okay, in an attempt to clarify.
Should the word in verse 17 be interpreted as "works", as the KJB does, or "a work".
The difference between the two is, one involves a single act at a particular moment, such as when the naked starving person is before you, and the other is in the plural form, as in doing unrelated acts or works multiple times, spanned over a long period of time.
For example, if faith is like you saying to this person, "be warm and filled", but your acts or works of so-called faith are of you, going church, reading and teaching the bible, giving of your time to the church, taking communion, and the like, over say weeks or months, what does that have to do with the naked hungry person in front of you?
My point is, these so-called acts or works, are NOT acts or works of faith, maybe of THE FAITH, but not of any particular faith, because they are completely UNRELATED to what the actual faith is.
Let's say you want and have faith for healing of the CCP virus, but you go out and do a bunch of good things with believers, like going to church, helping the elderly, and so on.
Did any of those things have anything to do with your faith for healing?
The obvious answer is, NO.
So how are those acts or works of kindness, considered to be works of faith, when they are completely unrelated and have absolutely nothing to do with getting God to heal you, which is what your faith is in?
If faith is specific, and it is, then why are we treating it like it's some all encompassing, do anything good, kind of works?
Sorry if I didn't explain it in a way you can understand, but bare with me, as I'm still working on my effective communications skills.

 

[EleventhHour]

By Works! (James 2)

The subject of faith, works, and salvation is a huge subject of which there are many facets and many different angles. One issue is how a person defines the words that he uses.

The word salvation to some means primarily initial salvation - the new birth. To others the word salvation begins at the new birth and continues through one's life and culminates in eternal and final salvation in heaven. In my understanding and what I am wanting to see in this thread, I am using salvation more in the second sense.

The title of this thread "By works" is designed to open a discussion of how works are intertwined in this entire process of salvation.

Paul says clearly that we are not saved by works; that is clear and indisputable! The topic at hand in this thread is how do we show our faith "by our works" and how is "faith made perfect by works?" (as James says).

Would you agree works are not intertwined in the salvation but are the result of?

Works demonstrate/reveal our faith to lost men.

 

[mailmandan]

This sounds nice but would not hold up to scrutiny in the light of many other scripture verses talking about faith that don't share the same concept.

It holds up just fine to scrutiny and I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

And regarding Abraham's faith in Romans 4:2-3, haven't you read James' reply to that in 2:23?

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

I certainly have read James' rely in James 2:23, which you misinterpreted. Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6 and was accounted as righteous many years before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

In James 2:22, "faith made perfect" or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved/accounted as righteous based on the merit of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Jas 2:23 And [after Abraham offered up Isaac, THEN] the scripture was FULFILLED which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous, yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Again, Romans is talking about works of the law, and James is talking about works of faith.

This is absolutely false and is taught in Roman Catholicism and results in salvation by works. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please tell me which works of faith/good works could a Christian perform which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any "works of faith/good works" that Christians perform which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? *When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect works of faith/good works from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (works of faith/good works) argument is in error.

NOWHERE in scripture did the apostle Paul say that man is saved "by" works of any kind. In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul clearly stated we are saved by grace through faith, not works. Paul did not say saved through faith (plus works of faith) and just not works (of the law). In Romans 4:5-6, the apostle Paul also clearly stated - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. In Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works..

If you haven't noticed yet, according to James, Romans 4:3 wasn't fulfilled until after Abraham offered up Isaac.

If you haven't noticed yet, according to James, Abraham's work of offering up Isaac in Genesis 15:6 resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22 and the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous, yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It holds up just fine to scrutiny and I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

I certainly have read James' rely in James 2:23, which you misinterpreted. Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6 and was accounted as righteous many years before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, "faith made perfect" or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved/accounted as righteous based on the merit of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous, yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

This is absolutely false and is taught in Roman Catholicism and results in salvation by works. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please tell me which works of faith/good works could a Christian perform which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any "works of faith/good works" that Christians perform which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? *When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect works of faith/good works from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (works of faith/good works) argument is in error.

NOWHERE in scripture did the apostle Paul say that man is saved "by" works of any kind. In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul clearly stated we are saved by grace through faith, not works. Paul did not say saved through faith (plus works of faith) and just not works (of the law). In Romans 4:5-6, the apostle Paul also clearly stated - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. In Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works..

If you haven't noticed yet, according to James, Abraham's work of offering up Isaac in Genesis 15:6 resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22 and the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous, yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Is this another one of those James teaches salvation by works not Grace threads?

 

[mailmandan]

Would you agree works are not intertwined in the salvation but are the result of?

Works demonstrate/reveal our faith to lost men.

Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. Works-salvationists will always try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. Roman Catholics for example basically teach that we are saved through faith "infused" with works and then those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life. I once heard another works-salvationist say we are saved through faith "conjoined" with works. In both cases, the end result was salvation through faith and works.

 

[mailmandan]

Is this another one of those James teaches salvation by works not Grace threads?

There always seems to be at least one person who misinterprets James 2 and teaches salvation by works in these types of threads, yet James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[tourist]

Okay, in an attempt to clarify.
Should the word in verse 17 be interpreted as "works", as the KJB does, or "a work".
The difference between the two is, one involves a single act at a particular moment, such as when the naked starving person is before you, and the other is in the plural form, as in doing unrelated acts or works multiple times, spanned over a long period of time.
For example, if faith is like you saying to this person, "be warm and filled", but your acts or works of so-called faith are of you, going church, reading and teaching the bible, giving of your time to the church, taking communion, and the like, over say weeks or months, what does that have to do with the naked hungry person in front of you?
My point is, these so-called acts or works, are NOT acts or works of faith, maybe of THE FAITH, but not of any particular faith, because they are completely UNRELATED to what the actual faith is.
Let's say you want and have faith for healing of the CCP virus, but you go out and do a bunch of good things with believers, like going to church, helping the elderly, and so on.
Did any of those things have anything to do with your faith for healing?
The obvious answer is, NO.
So how are those acts or works of kindness, considered to be works of faith, when they are completely unrelated and have absolutely nothing to do with getting God to heal you, which is what your faith is in?
If faith is specific, and it is, then why are we treating it like it's some all encompassing, do anything good, kind of works?
Sorry if I didn't explain it in a way you can understand, but bare with me, as I'm still working on my effective communications skills.

Regarding works as being defined as work, there is such a thing called a body of work that encompasses all work accomplished that serves a single purpose, the purpose being humbly serving the Lord.

Again, I too don't believe that any works performed are an act of faith but come as a manifestation of one's salvation. I believe that salvation can only come from an act of faith in the promises of God in regards to salvation as stated in scripture.

Works performed as a result of faith include more than just having the faith that through the power of God you can heal someone. Unless you have faith in God and in scripture you are not going to be born-again and will not be doing any works or work or however you want to describe it because to accomplish any good work you will need to the Holy Spirit to guide you. Otherwise any works you perform will be like filthy rags in the eyes of the Lord.

I would not consider telling a destitute homeless person "be warm and filled" to be a work but rather, as I have stated previously, a worthless sentiment, unless you are the one, by the grace of God and faith, who is doing the warming and filling for this brother or sister in need if you are able to do so.

 

[Chester]

Would you agree works are not intertwined in the salvation but are the result of?

Works demonstrate/reveal our faith to lost men.

It is always difficult to know what the other person means by the words they say??!!

I said above at one place that works are intertwined with salvation - especially when salvation is defined in the broad sense of God having saved us at conversion, presently saving us from the power of sin, and saving us in the future in heaven. But I am guessing I mean much the same as when you say that works are the result of faith.

When I say works are intertwined with salvation, I am trying to make the point that living a life of victory over sin is really an important and integral part of what living a saved life is. But that is not saying that works have justified us or are justifying us in any way.

You will see that I use "justify" in the previous sentence in the same way some use "salvation" in the narrower sense of initial salvation (the new birth).

 

[Chester]

There always seems to be at least one person who misinterprets James 2 and teaches salvation by works in these types of threads, yet James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

I think I would agree with about everything you write above, but I think that my concern is that we do not make salvation only the initial happening when we are born again, and disconnect it from a life of victorious Spirit filled living above sin.

The initial act of salvation (justification) is by grace through faith and not of works. And James is saying that it is not just the initial act, but as you point out, we then live our lives by faith empowered by God's grace. We do works, but they are not from us, but are from God.
So James numerous times says "by works" - this does not mean works save a person in the sense of justifying us from sin, but works are part of a Spirit filled victorious, joyful life: the person who has faith will be found doing works - so when I say works are "intertwined with salvation" this is what I am trying to say.

 

[Chester]

Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. Works-salvationists will always try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. Roman Catholics for example basically teach that we are saved through faith "infused" with works and then those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life. I once heard another works-salvationist say we are saved through faith "conjoined" with works. In both cases, the end result was salvation through faith and works.

What do you mean when you say that works are "not the essence of faith"? I would probably say the say thing, but I am not sure what you are inferring?

Why are works only a "by-product"? The way farmers around here use "by-product" would not speak very highly of what works are! Again, I may agree with you, but just asking what you mean? (I would never say in my rural setting that works are a "by-product")

I agree that some "conjoin" and make works meritorious toward receiving eternal life! False Doctrine! Heresy! - Agreed!

But then I also think that others sometimes accuse people who are serious about following God and trying to live above sin as fanatical and the "works-salvation" label is thrown around way too quickly sometimes.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

First let me respond to Gal. 2:20 - It seems you are basing your comment from this verse on the basis of the KJV "I live by the faith of the Son of God." Hence you our concluding this is not our faith, but it is Jesus" faith and then apply this to Eph 2:8 that it is not our faith, but Jesus' faith that is the saving avenue for salvation.

Your take on a KJV preposition is very dubious if you know anything about the Greek wording here. The word "Son" is in the dative case and does not have a preposition with it at all. So it is a matter of interpretation. Many translations say "in the Son of God". To make a doctrinal difference out of an English preposition choice by translators does not seem wise.

I have no problem with your basic analysis of Ephesians 2:1-5. If you correlate it with Romans 6 where Paul speaks of our dying with Christ is where I see that our old nature/man died with Christ.

I am not quite sure about your statement "unable to discern anything of a spiritual nature". I guess I don't know what you are saying or trying to imply - or maybe it is not as pronounced a statement as it seems to be! I Corinthians 2:14 does say that the natural man does not accept/receive the things of the Spirit - and that these things are are spiritually discerned. But your statement seems to go a bit beyond what this verse says - ??

I think Ephesians 2:8 -9 simply teach that God's grace is the starting place of justification. Then as God's grace flows into my life, I am able to respond in faith to God's call and thus believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. All of this is a gift from God!

What I have a problem understanding is that you say that our belief in Christ is the reason that he atoned for our sins. Unless I am reading you wrong. I have always understood Eph 2:5 to mean that before God gave us the new birth, we were spiritually dead and were incapable of believing in a spiritual Saviour.

I am a little confused with my understanding of your statement "believe in Jesus Christ FOR Salvation". Is our believing what causes us to be born again by God's grace, or, does our faith and believing come after we are born again spiritually?

 

[mailmandan]

I think I would agree with about everything you write above, but I think that my concern is that we do not make salvation only the initial happening when we are born again, and disconnect it from a life of victorious Spirit filled living above sin.

The initial act of salvation (justification) is by grace through faith and not of works. And James is saying that it is not just the initial act, but as you point out, we then live our lives by faith empowered by God's grace. We do works, but they are not from us, but are from God.
So James numerous times says "by works" - this does not mean works save a person in the sense of justifying us from sin, but works are part of a Spirit filled victorious, joyful life: the person who has faith will be found doing works - so when I say works are "intertwined with salvation" this is what I am trying to say.

Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Is that what you are talking about? We are saved FOR good works, but NOT BY good works. Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. You are absolutely correct when you said works do not save a person in the sense of justifying us from sin, yet the person who has faith will be found doing works.

 

[mailmandan]

What do you mean when you say that works are "not the essence of faith"? I would probably say the say thing, but I am not sure what you are inferring?

To say that works are the very essence of faith would be to say that faith "is" works. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who continually said that belief + works = faith and called works an essential element of faith and said that it's our cooperation with God’s grace producing works that saves us and he stressed that we are saved by faith and works. He also went on to make this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

As you can see above, according to his logic, faith "is" in essence this list of works above so to say that we are saved by faith would also include being saved by accomplishing that list of works above as well according to his logic. I typically use the word "essence" when referring to the Godhead - the Divine essence and personality of God, of the same substance or essence. Which would conclude that Jesus "is" God (Colossians 2:9) but we can't say that faith "is" works. Faith is faith and works are works.

Why are works only a "by-product"? The way farmers around here use "by-product" would not speak very highly of what works are! Again, I may agree with you, but just asking what you mean? (I would never say in my rural setting that works are a "by-product")

I simply mean that works are produced out of faith, but are not faith itself, just as fruit is produced by a fruit tree, but fruit is not the tree itself. Jesus speaks of fruit when referring to works. (Matthew 7:16-20)

I agree that some "conjoin" and make works meritorious toward receiving eternal life! False Doctrine! Heresy! - Agreed!

We are in complete agreement here!

But then I also think that others sometimes accuse people who are serious about following God and trying to live above sin as fanatical and the "works-salvation" label is thrown around way too quickly sometimes.

I only label people who teach that we are saved "by" works as works-salvationists. I would never give that label to someone who clearly states that we are saved through faith and not by works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There always seems to be at least one person who misinterprets James 2 and teaches salvation by works in these types of threads, yet James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

Sadly, James is speaking to a different audience then paul. Which is why he appears to contradict him, yet in context he is not.. Which is why so many misinterpret James

 

[Chester]

What I have a problem understanding is that you say that our belief in Christ is the reason that he atoned for our sins. Unless I am reading you wrong. I have always understood Eph 2:5 to mean that before God gave us the new birth, we were spiritually dead and were incapable of believing in a spiritual Saviour.

I am a little confused with my understanding of your statement "believe in Jesus Christ FOR Salvation". Is our believing what causes us to be born again by God's grace, or, does our faith and believing come after we are born again spiritually?

It seems like most of your wondering here is not understanding what I mean - which may be because I assume too much when I write . . . ?!

You are right that before God gave us the new birth we were spiritually dead. But then when you say we "were incapable of believing in a spiritual Saviour" I am not quite sure what you mean? The bug crawling on my desk is definitely "incapable of believing in a spiritual Saviour", but to say that of a man/woman who is created in the image of God, I am not quite sure what you imply. It seems in my view you are putting mankind on the same level as the bug on my desk.

I would say it more like this: The grace of God begins to work in the life and heart of the unbeliever: then as his heart and mind is stirred by the Spirit and by the grace of God, he begins to respond with a God-given faith (believing). Then he is born again by the power and grace of God through the channel of his faith in Jesus Christ.


What I have a problem understanding is that you say that our belief in Christ is the reason that he atoned for our sins. Unless I am reading you wrong

Explanation: Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world when He gave His life at Calvary. To all who believe in him this atonement is appropriated through faith in Jesus Christ. Christ's death made atonement available for all who believe (it is by grace through faith).


I am a little confused with my understanding of your statement "believe in Jesus Christ FOR Salvation". Is our believing what causes us to be born again by God's grace, or, does our faith and believing come after we are born again spiritually?

Explanation: What comes before or after or the timing is not that critical in my understanding. All I know is that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved "by grace through faith, and not of works." So what causes us to be born again? It is by (God's) grace through (our response in) faith, and all of this is not of ourselves, but the whole thing is a package gift from God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It seems like most of your wondering here is not understanding what I mean - which may be because I assume too much when I write . . . ?!

You are right that before God gave us the new birth we were spiritually dead. But then when you say we "were incapable of believing in a spiritual Saviour" I am not quite sure what you mean? The bug crawling on my desk is definitely "incapable of believing in a spiritual Saviour", but to say that of a man/woman who is created in the image of God, I am not quite sure what you imply. It seems in my view you are putting mankind on the same level as the bug on my desk.

I would say it more like this: The grace of God begins to work in the life and heart of the unbeliever: then as his heart and mind is stirred by the Spirit and by the grace of God, he begins to respond with a God-given faith (believing). Then he is born again by the power and grace of God through the channel of his faith in Jesus Christ.


What I have a problem understanding is that you say that our belief in Christ is the reason that he atoned for our sins. Unless I am reading you wrong

Explanation: Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world when He gave His life at Calvary. To all who believe in him this atonement is appropriated through faith in Jesus Christ. Christ's death made atonement available for all who believe (it is by grace through faith).


I am a little confused with my understanding of your statement "believe in Jesus Christ FOR Salvation". Is our believing what causes us to be born again by God's grace, or, does our faith and believing come after we are born again spiritually?

Explanation: What comes before or after or the timing is not that critical in my understanding. All I know is that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved "by grace through faith, and not of works." So what causes us to be born again? It is by (God's) grace through (our response in) faith, and all of this is not of ourselves, but the whole thing is a package gift from God.

Do I have the wrong thinking that when a person is born again God puts the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within him? Does a person that is not born again only have a carnal nature and does not have a spiritual nature?

1 Cor 2:11, For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Verse 13, Which things we (those that have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth; but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Verse 14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned. How can the natural man believe spiritual things and respond in faith?

Are you saying that what causes the natural carnal man (void of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) to be born again is BY GOD'S GRACE, in which I agree, but if it depends upon our response, would that not be considered as "eternal salvation by our works because of our response"? Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works, otherwise grace in no more grace.

How would eternal salvation be a free gift of God's grace if it depended upon man's/woman's response?

I apologise for all of the questions, but I am truly concerned about a correct understanding of the scriptures.