Not By Works

[DorothyMae]

Once again you refuse to deal with spiritual truths.

Your tactic......... point to the "natural" hoping you can make it contradict spiritual truth .. but it does not.

The lamb who was slain is very spiritual and not natural. Don’t you know who that is? Do you think that’s a natural lamb??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Statement 1: I have no sin.

Statement 2: I have ceased from sin.

And you think the above statements are the same?!

Yes, you are right; End of discussion!

Dude if you have ceased from sin. You presently have no sin

Now if you said you HAD sin it would be different

Take your proud rolley eyes and live up to the fact. Stop denying the truth

If you claim you have right now no
Sin you decieve yourself

I am going to keep saying it because it’s the truth Whether you like it or
Not

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Statement 1: I have no sin.

Statement 2: I have ceased from sin.

And you think the above statements are the same?!

Yes, you are right; End of discussion!

Oh and PS. I never said they were the same so you also have once again made a statement which is not factual

In fact. What you have just done IS SIN. So you also Just proved you are not sinless

Well done

 

[EleventhHour]

Completely false. Good behavior doesn’t humble anyone. You won’t like this, but I don’t care about my salvation from hell and never give it a thought. Why I
obey God is a mystery to you although I’ve explained it. Stone wants verses as verse or no one recognizes the words of Pauk without blinking lights. I could quote this abd countless from memory but for you Stone,

Phil 3:10

That’s my motivation.Actually I do, you do not.

Do you know, for example That Jesus says God won’t forgive your sins unless you forgive others? Do you need the reference for that?

That, my friend, is the exception.

I recommend taking ALL of Jesus’ words.

The gift of salvation is "by grace through faith apart from works".... so once again you demonstrate your ineptness at rightly dividing

the word of God if you think your reference to God's forgiveness in that particular passage is connected to the gift of salvation.

 

[VCO]

The lamb who was slain is very spiritual and not natural. Don’t you know who that is? Do you think that’s a natural lamb??

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING ? ? ? The lamb that was Slain, almost every Christian knows that is a REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST?

Revelation 5:12 (KJV)
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 19:11-16 (HCSB)
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
12 His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
13 He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
14 The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.
15 A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
16 And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

[EleventhHour]

The lamb who was slain is very spiritual and not natural. Don’t you know who that is? Do you think that’s a natural lamb??

Do you

That is what you asked.... I was the subject of the question.

Again deflecting away from what is accomplished in Heavenly places.

 

[posthuman]

That a man never cheated on his wife won’t save him from the cheating he otherwise did. We won’t givean answer before for sins we never did, but the ones we did.

Why is it difficult for you guys to believe some atheists never committed all sins? Don’t you know some who have never murdered? Do you thinks it’s particularly wonderful of them? Why do you jump to “sinless” atheists if they didn’t murder or commit adultery? Doesn’t make them saints by any means.

i don't know if you are meaning to ask me if i find it difficult to believe some unbelievers aren't guilty of some number of particular sins, but i was saying just what you are saying, in what you're replying to.
even if a person never lies, never steals, never covets, never murders, never bows before an idol, or ever does anything that you can point to and say 'that's naughty' they will die in their sins if they do not believe.

i was trying to point out that the fact unbelievers can lead outwardly clean lives indicates how that sin, and righteousness also, is a matter of the heart and of faith. 'have no other gods' isn't necessarily seen -- a person can obey every kind of law governing the behavior of his body, without fail, and be damned by his vanity.
sin is more than what a person does or fails to do with their hands, feet or mouth. didn't Jesus tells us this in the sermon on the mount? if you hate someone in your heart, it is murder. an atheist may not physically murder someone, but they hate God in their heart, and they are guilty of murder. and can't we all covet without actually going after the object of that wicked desire? the sin is the desire, and it isn't a physical property. it is a mental/spiritual property.

we can't measure this from the outside; such measurements are deceptive. Jesus also said, stop judging by appearances; judge righteous judgement! -- what does that tell us? it tells us that judging the outward person is not righteous judgement.

 

[EleventhHour]

The lamb who was slain is very spiritual and not natural. Don’t you know who that is? Do you think that’s a natural lamb??

The lamb was slain in the natural, temporal world as well as in the spiritual... you are very confused and will deny as always to fit your narrative when needed.


And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world
Rev. 13:8

 

[posthuman]

i don't know if you are meaning to ask me if i find it difficult to believe some unbelievers aren't guilty of some number of particular sins, but i was saying just what you are saying, in what you're replying to.
even if a person never lies, never steals, never covets, never murders, never bows before an idol, or ever does anything that you can point to and say 'that's naughty' they will die in their sins if they do not believe.

i was trying to point out that the fact unbelievers can lead outwardly clean lives indicates how that sin, and righteousness also, is a matter of the heart and of faith. 'have no other gods' isn't necessarily seen -- a person can obey every kind of law governing the behavior of his body, without fail, and be damned by his vanity.
sin is more than what a person does or fails to do with their hands, feet or mouth. didn't Jesus tells us this in the sermon on the mount? if you hate someone in your heart, it is murder. an atheist may not physically murder someone, but they hate God in their heart, and they are guilty of murder. and can't we all covet without actually going after the object of that wicked desire? the sin is the desire, and it isn't a physical property. it is a mental/spiritual property.

we can't measure this from the outside; such measurements are deceptive. Jesus also said, stop judging by appearances; judge righteous judgement! -- what does that tell us? it tells us that judging the outward person is not righteous judgement.

i'm afraid that if we don't get that concept through our heads we can wind up being that person who says but lord, lord, look at all the clean living i did and all the works i performed! because if we go on only thinking about sin in terms of physical actions / inactions, we won't even recognize how sinful we are ((in the case of the unregenerate who boasts of works)) which is, how sinful our flesh is ((in the case of the reborn who war against their flesh)).

to me it is not 'i must crucify myself again today' -- it is, i must keep the fact of my crucifixion at the forefront of my thinking, so that i do not fail to recognize those things in my heart that come from my flesh for what they are. if i see them and reject them, then they are not 'me' -- i am the one seeing them, recognizing them, which must mean "i" am separate from them. a spiritual life disparate from the fleshly one with disparate desires and will, divided in this way by my own crucifixion with Him.
that's Romans 7 BTW lol.. just so happens to immediately follow Romans 6 i wonder why??

 

[DorothyMae]

i don't know if you are meaning to ask me if i find it difficult to believe some unbelievers aren't guilty of some number of particular sins, but i was saying just what you are saying, in what you're replying to.
even if a person never lies, never steals, never covets, never murders, never bows before an idol, or ever does anything that you can point to and say 'that's naughty' they will die in their sins if they do not believe.

No man goes through life never doing any wrong. There are no such adult people at death.

i was trying to point out that the fact unbelievers can lead outwardly clean lives indicates how that sin, and righteousness also, is a matter of the heart and of faith. 'have no other gods' isn't necessarily seen -- a person can obey every kind of law governing the behavior of his body, without fail, and be damned by his vanity.

I know of no atheist who is outwardly clean. None whose life choices I know. So this is nothing any christian need bother about. There aren’t any.

sin is more than what a person does or fails to do with their hands, feet or mouth. didn't Jesus tells us this in the sermon on the mount? if you hate someone in your heart, it is murder. an atheist may not physically murder someone, but they hate God in their heart, and they are guilty of murder. and can't we all covet without actually going after the object of that wicked desire? the sin is the desire, and it isn't a physical property. it is a mental/spiritual property.

True but they all do more than inner sins.

we can't measure this from the outside; such measurements are deceptive. Jesus also said, stop judging by appearances; judge righteous judgement! -- what does that tell us? it tells us that judging the outward person is not righteous judgement.

jesus said to judge a tree by its fruit. Sap is inward. Photosynthesis is inward. Fruit is completely outward. It’s not that difficult to figure out a fruit tree when the fruit is there. So I don’t agree. I think it’s easy to tell after careful and prolonged observation whereby the words the “tree” show a lot.

 

[DorothyMae]

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING ? ? ? The lamb that was Slain, almost every Christian knows that is a REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST?

Revelation 5:12 (KJV)
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 19:11-16 (HCSB)
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
12 His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
13 He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
14 The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.
15 A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
16 And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Then why did he think I was referring to a natural lamb?

 

[DorothyMae]

i don't know about that. Jesus said the one believing in Him, He gives eternal life, and that even if they die, they will live.

did you know 'everlasting gobstoppers' have expiration dates? tis true.
so they are not really 'everlasting' -- that's a lie. a marketing ploy. a deception.

now, if Christ says He gives me everlasting life, and that life isn't actually everlasting . . ?
then has He become a liar?

so i don't know how you define 'OSAS' but for me, i believe His gift of life to me is real life, eternal life, not deceptive & lying temporary life. not 'fake everlasting' like gobstoppers.

Believing is active. He did NOT say “once believED in me will have ever-lasting life. That what the OSAS crowd wished he had said.

I wish your guys wouldn’t keep saying God is lying if OSAS isn’t true. The father of lies is fond of that line of thinking.

 

[cv5]

Believing is active. He did NOT say “once believED in me will have ever-lasting life. That what the OSAS crowd wished he had said.

I wish your guys wouldn’t keep saying God is lying if OSAS isn’t true. The father of lies is fond of that line of thinking.

OSAS is false if and only if Jesus is lying. So take your pick.

 

[Poinsetta]

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

you will do works when you owe for the amount of faith you have been given.

And if you believe but don't do the works you will only be counted as "Righteous"(ness)

*if anything you will be 'imputed' righteousness.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

you will be imputed my man.

 

[Poinsetta]

this thread should be called "Thy Works of Faith"

 

[Nehemiah6]

Believing is active. He did NOT say “once believED in me will have ever-lasting life.

Actually that is EXACTLY what Christ said. So to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is to also believe that what He said is true and Truth.

FAITH IN CHRIST RESULTS IN EVERLASTING LIFE
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (John 5:25)

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. (John 6:26,27)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. (John 8:51)

JESUS IS THE BREAD OF LIFE
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (John 6:32,33)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. (John 6:47,48)

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (John 6:53-56)

JESUS HIMSELF IS THE DOOR TO SALVATION
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (John 10:7-9)

 

[VCO]

No I don’t.

I say I have ceased from sin (1 Peter 4:1).

Try and understand this VERSE:


Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.


Your Sin Nature is alive and well, and has CAUSED YOU TO THINK YOU CAN EVEN, CEASE FROM SIN. That verse you referred to is your Human Spirit is sinless, BUT YOUR FLESH still has a Sin Nature. My suggestion is you, if you are truly born again, but you DECEIVED yourself, so REPENT.


Romans 7:14-25 (HCSB)
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power.
15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
21 So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.
22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.
23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin. {🡸 There is an Honest Man, and you are being dishonest or ignorant of what all GOD calls Sin.}

I repeat: YOU HAVE DECEIVED YOURSELF, REPENT!

 

[cv5]

Only the foreordained abide. They stand in grace and thereby endure to the end. OSAS by grace through faith. Those who fall away are apostates, aka Judas branches.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=ESV&quicksearch=abide&begin=47&end=73

 

[cv5]

Try and understand this VERSE:


Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.


Your Sin Nature is alive and well, and has CAUSED YOU TO THINK YOU CAN EVEN, CEASE FROM SIN. That verse you referred to is your Human Spirit is sinless, BUT YOUR FLESH still has a Sin Nature. My suggestion is you, if you are truly born again, but you DECEIVED yourself, so REPENT.


Romans 7:14-25 (HCSB)
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power.
15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
21 So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.
22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.
23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin. {🡸 There is an Honest Man, and you are being dishonest or ignorant of what all GOD calls Sin.}

I repeat: YOU HAVE DECEIVED YOURSELF, REPENT!

Very salient point. Those who say they have no sin are sinning gravely indeed! Surely a manifestation of the defiant depraved unsaved human condition.

 

[SoulWeaver]

We discussed smoking and your point was if a man can quit smoking by himself he doesn’t need Jesus at all. This assumes that no man can resist temptation to anything and it’s just not so.

I didn’t say we can all fight (all) sin equally. I actually said out and out we are tempted differently. I know atheists who would never cheat on their spouse. I know Christians who did. We need Jesus for sins we are tempted and have done not the ones we didnt. That’s what I said.

This is also true when you compare different Christians. Everyone has different temptations.
So if things come down to choosing (I am asking you because personal choice is what you bring up as opposed to salvation security), what is the real difference between Christians and atheists? If both have power to choose to reject sins. And why worry about salvation loss then, if people have the power to choose to retain or maintain the salvation.