Not By Works

[posthuman]

Salvation is a free gift, not of works.

What you do afterwards is what the discussion is about.

lascivious, wanton lives of sin should not be assumed just because we are adamant that our salvation rests in Him alone, and was never nor is now contingent on our merit. if any of us are crowned, when we cast those at His feet neither will it be because we are using His grace as license; it is a testament that we 'put no confidence in the flesh' but ascribe all glory to Him.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Which is the same as claiming no you presently have no sin

John says your decieved. End of discussion

Statement 1: I have no sin.

Statement 2: I have ceased from sin.

And you think the above statements are the same?!

Yes, you are right; End of discussion!

 

[posthuman]

Statement 1: I have no sin.

Statement 2: I have ceased from sin.

And you think the above statements are the same?!

Yes, you are right; End of discussion!

"it is no longer i who sin"

Romans 7:17 & Romans 7:20

why does he say this twice in a row?

 

[EleventhHour]

All wrong, all of it.

How so?

In your view you must finish by good behavior what Jesus started, so have you truly humbled yourself to Him?

Romans 8:30 that those He has justified He will also Glorify.

I see no exceptions.

You do not humbly take Jesus at His word, nor accept His promises.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

"it is no longer i who sin"

Romans 7:17 & Romans 7:20

why does he say this twice in a row?

Sin dwells in the flesh.

Destroy the flesh, destroy sin.

 

[SoulWeaver]

So your idea that because a man isn’t tempted to adulterous means he doesn’t need Jesus is wrong.

Do you see what I mean?

I nowhere claimed that... I said that you suggested this, by claiming fighting sin is kind of equal for atheists and Christians... according to you both groups have power to fight off sin because it all comes down to personal willpower and choice.

 

[star]

“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the.....humble.”

Did you understand that word "humble" Dottie

 

[star]

but false according to whom? we are none of us God here.

I know a false teacher/doctrine when I see it spoken in words on this site. If you want to support Dottie or any false teacher/doctrine, go for it. As for me, I'll stand on the Word of God.

 

[EleventhHour]

but false according to whom? we are none of us God here.

One does not have to be God to recognize a false teacher..... false according to His written word.

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

I know a false teacher/doctrine when I see it spoken in words on this site. If you want to support Dottie or any false teacher/doctrine, go for it. As for me, I'll stand on the Word of God.

my point was - we don't know, do we? we are not God ( all- knowing).

nevertheless, we will each do as we feel is right hopefully. if that is what we do, God will see each of us doing this and understand (God looks on the heart as well as actions and knows each of us and why we are each of us - as we are).

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

How so?

In your view you must finish by good behavior what Jesus started, so have you truly humbled yourself to Him?

Romans 8:30 that those He has justified He will also Glorify.

I see no exceptions.

You do not humbly take Jesus at His word, nor accept His promises.

Luke 9 21Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone. 22“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

Take Up Your Cross
(Matthew 16:24-28; Mark 8:34-38)
23Then Jesus said to all of them, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. 24For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

25What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet lose or forfeit his very self? 26If anyone is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27But I tell you truthfully, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”


take up our cross - crucify the flesh - daily - an ongoing process (we are not sinless/perfected yet).

notice Jesus doesn't mention any beliefs we must have here, or grace once given -- but following, daily, and crucifying ourselves.

 

[posthuman]

Sin dwells in the flesh.

Destroy the flesh, destroy sin.

Done. He did it.

Welcome to Romans 6.
This is exactly why Romans 7 says exactly what it says.

 

[EleventhHour]

Salvation is permanent because it is God who keeps us saved.


"To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and
that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who
are kept by the power of God through faith unto
salvation ready to be revealed in the last time"
(1 Peter 1:4-5)

 

[EleventhHour]

notice Jesus doesn't mention any beliefs we must have here, or grace once given -- but following, daily, and crucifying ourselves.

If you think this is how salvation is gained, then let me ask you on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 gained salvation)...... where would

you place yourself on this journey of crucifying yourself?

 

[DorothyMae]

I nowhere claimed that... I said that you suggested this, by claiming fighting sin is kind of equal for atheists and Christians... according to you both groups have power to fight off sin because it all comes down to personal willpower and choice.

We discussed smoking and your point was if a man can quit smoking by himself he doesn’t need Jesus at all. This assumes that no man can resist temptation to anything and it’s just not so.

I didn’t say we can all fight (all) sin equally. I actually said out and out we are tempted differently. I know atheists who would never cheat on their spouse. I know Christians who did. We need Jesus for sins we are tempted and have done not the ones we didnt. That’s what I said.

 

[DorothyMae]

and yet they will be condemned in their unbelief, despite 'good behavior'
so it seems salvation is not by works ((**cough**)) but by grace through faith, right?

a mental and spiritual property, rather than a physical one.

That a man never cheated on his wife won’t save him from the cheating he otherwise did. We won’t givean answer before for sins we never did, but the ones we did.

Why is it difficult for you guys to believe some atheists never committed all sins? Don’t you know some who have never murdered? Do you thinks it’s particularly wonderful of them? Why do you jump to “sinless” atheists if they didn’t murder or commit adultery? Doesn’t make them saints by any means.

 

[EleventhHour]

notice Jesus doesn't mention any beliefs we must have here, or grace once given -- but following, daily, and crucifying ourselves.

What you have written here is really NOT good.... you have completely DENIED grace and belief and elevated self solely.

 

[posthuman]

take up our cross - crucify the flesh - daily - an ongoing process (we are not sinless/perfected yet).

notice Jesus doesn't mention any beliefs we must have here, or grace once given -- but following, daily, and crucifying ourselves.

i don't think this is correct, but i hear it a lot. let me explain --

He says "pick up your cross" -- that's not equivalent to "crucify yourself"
Romans 6 tells us, we have been crucified with Him. done. completed. it commands us, "consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God" through Christ, because we have already been crucified with Him. Colossians 3 tells us, we have died and presently our lives are hid in Christ -- this is something finished, completed, already having happened. the instruction to 'take up your cross' is to carry these facts with you, not to perform them all over again as though yesterday's baptism into Him was insufficient.

it is like the comparison the author of Hebrews makes, saying that under the law the priests had to keep making sacrifices over and over, adding more and more blood to the altar daily to cover sin. but Christ has died once and for all -- do to say 'crucify yourself' every day is like saying 'you were born again yesterday, now be born a 3rd time today, and be born again tomorrow -- be born again and again and again and again...'

either He has saved us or He hasn't; either we have died with Him or we have not. we are born of the Spirit or we haven't been. i don't think that by saying 'pick up your cross daily' it is meant, keep starting over from square one. but remember Him and what He has done. don't walk around, as James says, like a man who looks away the mirror and immediately forgets who he is. James isn't saying you have to go become that person again over and over; he's saying, as Paul says, 'be unleavened, as you really are' -- and we really are, or else what has Christ done for us? anything at all? if i'm having to repeat His work for Him every day it hardly makes sense to say that 'by one sacrifice He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified'

you maybe know the old saying, that if you're crucifying yourself you're gonna have a hard time with that last nail. it may be trite but there's a real truth to that: crucifixion is something that has to be done to you by someone else, and it generally doesn't need to be 'redone' once it's happened.

 

[DorothyMae]

How so?

In your view you must finish by good behavior what Jesus started, so have you truly humbled yourself to Him?

Completely false. Good behavior doesn’t humble anyone. You won’t like this, but I don’t care about my salvation from hell and never give it a thought. Why I
obey God is a mystery to you although I’ve explained it. Stone wants verses as verse or no one recognizes the words of Pauk without blinking lights. I could quote this abd countless from memory but for you Stone,

Phil 3:10

That’s my motivation.

Romans 8:30 that those He has justified He will also Glorify.

I see no exceptions.

You do not humbly take Jesus at His word, nor accept His promises.

Actually I do, you do not.

Do you know, for example That Jesus says God won’t forgive your sins unless you forgive others? Do you need the reference for that?

That, my friend, is the exception.

I recommend taking ALL of Jesus’ words.

 

[EleventhHour]

i don't think this is correct, but i hear it a lot. let me explain --

He says "pick up your cross" -- that's not equivalent to "crucify yourself"
Romans 6 tells us, we have been crucified with Him. done. completed. it commands us, "consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God" through Christ, because we have already been crucified with Him. Colossians 3 tells us, we have died and presently our lives are hid in Christ -- this is something finished, completed, already having happened. the instruction to 'take up your cross' is to carry these facts with you, not to perform them all over again as though yesterday's baptism into Him was insufficient.

it is like the comparison the author of Hebrews makes, saying that under the law the priests had to keep making sacrifices over and over, adding more and more blood to the altar daily to cover sin. but Christ has died once and for all -- do to say 'crucify yourself' every day is like saying 'you were born again yesterday, now be born a 3rd time today, and be born again tomorrow -- be born again and again and again and again...'

either He has saved us or He hasn't; either we have died with Him or we have not. we are born of the Spirit or we haven't been. i don't think that by saying 'pick up your cross daily' it is meant, keep starting over from square one. but remember Him and what He has done. don't walk around, as James says, like a man who looks away the mirror and immediately forgets who he is. James isn't saying you have to go become that person again over and over; he's saying, as Paul says, 'be unleavened, as you really are' -- and we really are, or else what has Christ done for us? anything at all? if i'm having to repeat His work for Him every day it hardly makes sense to say that 'by one sacrifice He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified'

you maybe know the old saying, that if you're crucifying yourself you're gonna have a hard time with that last nail. it may be trite but there's a real truth to that: crucifixion is something that has to be done to you by someone else, and it generally doesn't need to be 'redone' once it's happened.

To "pick up our cross" is to identify with His Death by faith.

I place my faith in the Redemptive Sacrifice of Jesus Christ..

We are not to look to ourselves for salvation... it is totally His work.