The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
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Demons bow NOW to the king Jesus.
In hebrews the FATHER SAYS "thy throne o God is forever and ever"
Jesus is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
HE COMES AFTER THE GT AS A CONQUORING KING.
OH YES...I CAN SAY WITH ALL BOLDNESS HE IS KING AND IS COMING AS THAT SAME KING.
HE IS CROWNED AND RULES AND REIGNS RIGHT NOW.
NO DEVIL HAS AUTHORITY WHEN A CHILD OF GOD TELLS THEM WHAT TO DO.
You are seeing a Parallel kingdom of satan. You think satan rules Jesus.
You think satan is bigger because he is the god(little creature) of the lost people and has a phoney title deed to the earth.
No sir...I resist that. Jesus is king over a kingdom now.
He is king
Has a throne
Has a people.
That is right now.
He will return with the deed and his bride as depicted in ruth.
Nice to know there is another on here not lost in this crazy new dispensationalism heretics.
Correct and it was recorded in history:
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. (War 6-5-3 Josephus).
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev 19)
Christ returned at the end of the age in 67-70 AD. His presence (parousia) is what is taught.
I'm speaking to futurists in general, those who look at all the prophesies of judgment wrath for Israel and apply them to our future. The title of this thread tells it all. Nehemiah6 fails to grasp certain fundamental, and frankly quite obvious, truths.The greatest irony is that these people are not even dispensationalist.
The NT starts out almost immediately discussing the near future judgment which would come to apostate Israel and her religious leaders when JTB says this in Mat 3:
7 But when he (John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Who was the wrath aimed at? Then in Mat 10, Jesus says this:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ ...
11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!
Was Jesus speaking about our cities in the 21st century or the disbelieving cities which did not hear the words of His disciples? When speaking directly to those about to cause His death Jesus says this in Mat 23:
33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Futurists would have you believe He was not talking about the generation of those about to kill Him but some 100s of generations later in our future when we didn't have anything to do with it. New Testament prophesies were so relevant in their day as all Jews had to make a decision. Either they accepted Christ as their Messiah and Savior or they were to be condemned to both kinds of death after enduring unspeakable horrors of the great tribulation. Peter drives this point home in Acts 3 when he says this:
22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet (Jesus) like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.
By the time 73-74 AD (Masada) was over there was not one disbelieving Jew left on the planet. This is not my teaching, this is Peter's teaching. Notice, from Samuel on down, they spoke of the days Peter was living in.
I scratch my head when people don't read (or comprehend) the text. Mat 24 makes clear this was going to happen in Judea.
"then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
Then look at the companion passage in Luke 21 where it is even more obvious:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
Matthew and Luke are recounting Christ's word describing the same event - the utter destruction of Jerusalem and Judea which happened 67-70 AD. They aren't skipping over the very near destruction to some future restored Israel of our day. Luke makes it clear these bad things were going to happen to a country - his country.
John was exiled to Patmos by Nero and he was still there during Domitian. Nero killed Peter and Paul and any other prominent Christian he could get his hands on. Do you really think Nero was going to allow John to continue his ministry. Early Christian tradition was that Nero had John thrown into a boiling vat of oil but John was unharmed so he vanquished him to Patmos. The Syrian version of the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation) confirms this. The sole source for Domitian comes from Irenaeus, a second century FRENCH clergyman who was recalling a 35 year-old conversation he had with Polycarp. Irenaeus simply got it wrong. All other sources cite back to the writings of Irenaeus.
Attachments
I scratch my head when people don't read (or comprehend) the text. Mat 24 makes clear this was going to happen in Judea.
"then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
Then look at the companion passage in Luke 21 where it is even more obvious:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
Matthew and Luke are recounting Christ's word describing the same event - the utter destruction of Jerusalem and Judea which happened 67-70 AD. They aren't skipping over the very near destruction to some future restored Israel of our day. Luke makes it clear these bad things were going to happen to a country - his country.
John was exiled to Patmos by Nero and he was still there during Domitian. Nero killed Peter and Paul and any other prominent Christian he could get his hands on. Do you really think Nero was going to allow John to continue his ministry. Early Christian tradition was that Nero had John thrown into a boiling vat of oil but John was unharmed so he vanquished him to Patmos. The Syrian version of the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation) confirms this. The sole source for Domitian comes from Irenaeus, a second century FRENCH clergyman who was recalling a 35 year-old conversation he had with Polycarp. Irenaeus simply got it wrong. All other sources cite back to the writings of Irenaeus.
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I scratch my head when people don't read (or comprehend) the text. Mat 24 makes clear this was going to happen in Judea.
"then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
Then look at the companion passage in Luke 21 where it is even more obvious:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
Matthew and Luke are recounting Christ's word describing the same event - the utter destruction of Jerusalem and Judea which happened 67-70 AD. They aren't skipping over the very near destruction to some future restored Israel of our day. Luke makes it clear these bad things were going to happen to a country - his country.
John was exiled to Patmos by Nero and he was still there during Domitian. Nero killed Peter and Paul and any other prominent Christian he could get his hands on. Do you really think Nero was going to allow John to continue his ministry. Early Christian tradition was that Nero had John thrown into a boiling vat of oil but John was unharmed so he vanquished him to Patmos. The Syrian version of the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation) confirms this. The sole source for Domitian comes from Irenaeus, a second century FRENCH clergyman who was recalling a 35 year-old conversation he had with Polycarp. Irenaeus simply got it wrong. All other sources cite back to the writings of Irenaeus.
View attachment 218156
Matthew 24 is about multiple events, 70 AD just was 1 of those events.
And the Church Fathers kept accurate dates plus since John was in the Church of Ephesus until 100 AD, I am positive he told the Church Fathers himself what read. Even Roman Archivers claim Domitian put John into Patmos. Plus, Revelations has accurately been dated to 98 AD.
Multiple Church Fathers place John in the Church of Ephesus around 100 AD when Trajan ruled Rome after the death of Domitian. Their source was John himself. You are quoting Isaac Newton hahahahahahaha wow, you don't think it odd for the first 6 Centuries everyone puts John in Patmos under Domitian and then 700-1200 years later, people not even around John make another claim. Try LOGIC, it seems to be something you clerarly LACK!
PlainWord,
It cracks me up that POLYCARP, a direct Disciple of John the Apostle and IGGY his own Disciple (and Irenaeus was their Disciple), was with John till his death and had FIRST HAND knowledge from the direct SOURCE HIMSELF.
And then YOU, are going to give me an Isaac Newton quote some 1600+ years later hahahahahahahahaha
Oh Man, you have fell off your rocker!
It cracks me up that POLYCARP, a direct Disciple of John the Apostle and IGGY his own Disciple (and Irenaeus was their Disciple), was with John till his death and had FIRST HAND knowledge from the direct SOURCE HIMSELF.
And then YOU, are going to give me an Isaac Newton quote some 1600+ years later hahahahahahahahaha
Oh Man, you have fell off your rocker!
You ask above if the word is speaking of "City" present to the 1st century apostles or future to all believers who proclaim the gospel?
The answer would be "Future" to all, as the Scripture "Clearly Mentions" the "Future" day of judgement on the last day.
You mention the standard "Preterist" quote of "This Generation" as if it sealed the deal with 1st century fulfillment?
Wrong, it's interpretation means nothing more than the "Future" generation that will be eyewitnesses to the events mentioned.
Matthew 24 in the olivet discourse is future unfulfilled.
The biggest fact that futurists ignore has to be that Christ plainly said He was going to return to destroy Jerusalem, its temple and its wicked priests. He said that those who pierced Him would see His return and bow down to Him. He further stated that some of those standing before Him would witness His return.
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles (Roman forces) the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Pretty clear He's talking about THIS generation as in the one He was talking to.
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate...
Only first century Jerusalem is in focus. No other city is being talked about. Jerusalem endured the Great Tribulation during the Roman siege before being slaughtered and burned to the ground with no stone left upon another. Immediately following the GT, the sun grew dark, this was the glory cloud concealing the total brightness of our Savior. Since we know Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD then we know Christ returned. No other return is found.
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles (Roman forces) the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Pretty clear He's talking about THIS generation as in the one He was talking to.
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate...
Only first century Jerusalem is in focus. No other city is being talked about. Jerusalem endured the Great Tribulation during the Roman siege before being slaughtered and burned to the ground with no stone left upon another. Immediately following the GT, the sun grew dark, this was the glory cloud concealing the total brightness of our Savior. Since we know Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD then we know Christ returned. No other return is found.
Your claim is false, Jesus Christ didn't return in 67-70AD as you claim.
Matthew 24:29-31 Seen below is a future literal event that takes place after the future tribulation, where literal human eyes on this literal earth will witness the event.
Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Let me say this again so that even you might understand. The ONLY source for Domitianic timing of Revelation was Irenaeus. Again, Irenaeus gets his information third-hand. Heard it from a friend who...heard it from a friend, who... heard it from another....
All other early Christian writers used Irenaeus as their source for this information such as Eusebius and Jerome and I believe Clement of Alexandria. However, other early Christian writers dated Revelation before the fall of Jerusalem. Andreas, the Bishop of Caesarea, says "John received his revelation under the reign of Vespasian." Andreas was the earliest writer on the subject expect for a few fragments from Victorinus.
Arethas, who followed Andreas in office, agrees. He writes, "Here then were manifestly made known to the Evangelist (John) that things were to befal the Jews in their war against the Romans in the way of avenging the sufferings inflected upon Christ." Thus we have no solid proof of the timing of Revelation whether it be Neroic or Domitianic.
So, we must look for internal proof within Revelation itself. Here, Christ's return was imminent.
The complete chapter of Matthew 24 was written to answer the two questions of verse (3) seen below?
(Future Events Unfulfilled)
1.) The second coming of Jesus Christ.
2.) The end of this world.
Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
I stand with Biker on the dating of revelation, the preterist claim of the early date is false.
Christiancourier.com
When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
By Wayne Jackson
Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).
A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.
In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.
External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.
Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.
Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).
Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.
Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).
Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,
In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).
To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.
The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.
The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).
Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.
Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).
Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.
The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.
Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).
You are equaling Christ, God in the flesh, to Pagans like Nero and Titus?
You need to set the pipe down, IMMEDIATELY!