The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[tourist]

I disagree for many reasons but one is that the book of Revelation is written in symbolic language, so the heavenly city coming down isn't a literal city coming down that city is a symbol for something else.

Was the account of Noah's ark, in your estimation, figurative or literal, since specific dimensions and bill of materials was also listed?

In a literal sense, in comparison to the account of New Jerusalem, I find the account of Noah's Ark to be even more preposterous yet I believe the account to be a literal representation of what happened so therefore I believe the account of New Jerusalem to be a literal representation as well.

OK, Noah's Ark - Symbolic reference or literal reference?

If your answer is literal then why would the account of the New Jerusalem be symbolic as both accounts, by my own perspective seem unbelievable yet I believe both to be true because it is stated in scripture.

 

[KJV1611]

Was the account of Noah's ark, in your estimation, figurative or literal, since specific dimensions and bill of materials was also listed?

In a literal sense, in comparison to the account of New Jerusalem, I find the account of Noah's Ark to be even more preposterous yet I believe the account to be a literal representation of what happened so therefore I believe the account of New Jerusalem to be a literal representation as well.

OK, Noah's Ark - Symbolic reference or literal reference?

If your answer is literal then why would the account of the New Jerusalem be symbolic as both accounts, by my own perspective seem unbelievable yet I believe both to be true because it is stated in scripture.

Tourist the OLD TESTAMENT was literal, it was FORESHADOWING spiritual thing to come.

 

[tourist]

Tourist the OLD TESTAMENT was literal, it was FORESHADOWING spiritual thing to come.

Everything in the OT is literal, even the account of the flying saucer in Ezekiel and the wheel within a wheel, and the creatures described? Now, that would be a good example of taking those accounts to be symbolic and not literal. I could be wrong on that too though.

 

[biker]

well, of course remembering the irenaeus could be wrong,
could it be that if John knew the name of the beast but didn't want to reveal it,
it was because the beast was someone alive at the time, or at least those alive at the time would then have suppressed the book because it was referring to systems in place at that time?
would that follow?

He couldn't reveal it because he was instructed by God not to reveal it. Like Paul going to Heaven and then God gave him a thorn in his side to keep Paul from being all high and mighty. If the Beast was current in John's day, there is no doubt he would have said so.

My reasoning for such, when did flying demonic scorpions with women's hair happen? When did the king of the abyss, Apollo, release billions of demons who wiped out 2/3 of humans take place (Jerusalem was 1 million people, not even close to being 1/100 of humanity in 70 AD)?
^
Since none of these have yet to happen even to this very day, why wouldn't the Number and Name of the Beast also been future events in 100 AD?

 

[KJV1611]

Everything in the OT is literal, even the account of the flying saucer in Ezekiel and the wheel within a wheel, and the creatures described? Now, that would be a good example of taking those accounts to be symbolic and not literal. I could be wrong on that too though.

I think when someone is seeing vision it most likely is not literal.

 

[tourist]

I think when someone is seeing vision it most likely is not literal.

Actually, that perception is interesting.

 

[Dan_473]

If the Beast was current in John's day, there is no doubt he would have said so.

seems to me there would be good reasons for not naming the name.
if the Roman government thought that it was inciting rebellion, then it would suppress the book.

but if they thought it was just more harmless Jewish stories, then they would just ignore it.

...when did flying demonic scorpions with women's hair happen?

literally, never.
as a figure of speech, probably many times throughout history.

some other examples
Exodus 19:4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to myself.

2 Samuel 1:23 Saul and Jonathan were lovely and pleasant in their lives. In their death, they were not divided. They were swifter than eagles. They were stronger than lions.

 

[Truth7t7]

I do, I'm living in it right now.

Your currently living in the New Heaven and Earth?

Your claim is "False", There Will Be No More Death In The New Heaven and Earth!

Romans 16:17-18KJV
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[biker]

seems to me there would be good reasons for not naming the name.
if the Roman government thought that it was inciting rebellion, then it would suppress the book.

Why not, John was 2 years from his death and was in Ephesus. The Romans would not have known if John told it or not to even matter since all involved with 70 AD were long gone and dead.

some other examples
Exodus 19:4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to myself.

2 Samuel 1:23 Saul and Jonathan were lovely and pleasant in their lives. In their death, they were not divided. They were swifter than eagles. They were stronger than lions.

Interesting indeed!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Thanks for the response, we will disagree, Ezekiel 47:12 is the Eternal Kingdom as seen in Rev 22:1-2

Read the verses just before verse 12 in Ezekiel 47:

Ezekiel 47:

8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


vs 10 — Engedi —situated upon the West shore of the Dead Sea about midway between the North and the South ends, and was included in the territory of Judah (see map).


vs 10 — Eneglaim — near the entrance of the Jordan into the Dead Sea (see map).

River and Tree of Life present, not on this earth but the New Heaven and Earth.

I see that Rev 22:2 refers to the tree of life. I do not see Ezekiel 47 refer to the tree of life:

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Ezekiel 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


In agreement the descriptions are similar ... not in agreement that the descriptions are identical.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

When I read these verse I see the time when God chose the Gentiles, and this happened at the cross.

Not at the cross, but later:

On Day of Pentecost, there were Jews present:

Acts 2:5 ... Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven ...

Acts 2:15 ... Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem ...

Acts 2:22 ... Ye men of Israel, hear these word ...

Acts 2:29 ... Men and brethren ... (Peter would not have referred to gentiles as "brethren")

Acts 2:36 ... let all the house of Israel know assuredly ...


Peter first witnessed to gentiles in Acts 10 and in Acts 11:1 is the record where the Jews heard that gentiles had also received the Word of God:

Act 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.


It wasn't until Acts 28 that we see the salvation of God is sent to the gentiles:

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

I also see the rest of those verses speaking of the destruction of Israel in AD 70. Then verse 17 talks about the new heaven and the new earth coming immediately after the AD 70 destruction. How do you see these verses?

You and I are not in agreement concerning this issue and I do not believe I will change your mind, nor do I believe you will change my mind.

I think you and I are best served in helping each other enjoy the abundant spiritual blessings God has heaped upon us in our day and time.

 

[Truth7t7]

Read the verses just before verse 12 in Ezekiel 47:

Ezekiel 47:

8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


vs 10 — Engedi —situated upon the West shore of the Dead Sea about midway between the North and the South ends, and was included in the territory of Judah (see map).


vs 10 — Eneglaim — near the entrance of the Jordan into the Dead Sea (see map).





I see that Rev 22:2 refers to the tree of life. I do not see Ezekiel 47 refer to the tree of life:

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Ezekiel 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


In agreement the descriptions are similar ... not in agreement that the descriptions are identical.

We will disagree

In Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22 both the river and Tree of life are seen, exactly the same place is seen "The Eternal Kingdom" in the New Heaven abd Earth.

Thanks for the response

 

[Dan_473]

Why not, John was 2 years from his death and was in Ephesus. The Romans would not have known if John told it or not to even matter since all involved with 70 AD were long gone and dead.

sorry, I don't follow what you're saying here.

suppose John wanted the book to circulate freely.
how does his being close to death and living in Ephesus relate to that?

Interesting indeed!

 

[PlainWord]

Hello PW, good to see you again.

The temple isn't hypothetical, it's spiritual, it is the body of Christ, the TRUE temple of God.

"And if they are ashamed....". The temple was to be built so that when they should looked upon this house, it should make them ashamed. The ones who do look toward this house, and are ashamed, they and only they can enter into this house.

(Eze 43:10) Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
(Eze 43:11) And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

This is a prophecy of the Jews seeing the body of Christ and being ashamed and provoked to jealous. This is the Jews that come to Christ.

No doubt the temple is spiritual today. But Ez 43 isn't discussing our temple. It was discussing a hypothetical temple that they didn't receive. This is clear because there is still animal sacrifice and death. This was written during Babylonian captivity thus it dealt with the next temple to be built, it didn't skip it.

 

[cv5]

No doubt the temple is spiritual today. But Ez 43 isn't discussing our temple. It was discussing a hypothetical temple that they didn't receive. This is clear because there is still animal sacrifice and death. This was written during Babylonian captivity thus it dealt with the next temple to be built, it didn't skip it.

So what is your view of end times eschatology? Is there anything at all that you can reference in Ezekiel that deals with a yet future end times?

 

[Truth7t7]

No doubt the temple is spiritual today. But Ez 43 isn't discussing our temple. It was discussing a hypothetical temple that they didn't receive. This is clear because there is still animal sacrifice and death. This was written during Babylonian captivity thus it dealt with the next temple to be built, it didn't skip it.

Your 100% correct!

Ezekiel chapter 43 is nothing more than prophecy of the Zerubbabel 2nd temple, that was completed in 536BC after the Babylonian captivity

Yes dispensationalism trys to sell this as a future temple, a big Pinocchio Fairy tale.

 

[Truth7t7]

Tourist the OLD TESTAMENT was literal, it was FORESHADOWING spiritual thing to come.

1611KJV the second coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of Heaven is "Literal" and will be a future event.

 

[Truth7t7]

So what is your view of end times eschatology? Is there anything at all that you can reference in Ezekiel that deals with a yet future end times?

Ezekiel chapter 47 teaches of the "Future" eternal kingdom, the River and Tree of life, eternal fruit, leaves for healing/medicine.

"The Eternal Kingdom"

Ezekiel 47:12KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

"The Eternal Kingdom"

Revelation 22:1-2KJV
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[cv5]

Ezekiel chapter 47 teaches of the "Future" eternal kingdom, the River and Tree of life, eternal fruit, leaves for healing/medicine.

"The Eternal Kingdom"

Ezekiel 47:12KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

"The Eternal Kingdom"

Revelation 22:1-2KJV
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Aaaahhhh Wait a second. You are saying that the temple of chapter 43 and the temple of chapter 47 are different temples? One is Zerubbabel's and the other one is the eternal temple?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Aaaahhhh Wait a second. You are saying that the temple of chapter 43 and the temple of chapter 47 are different temples? One is Zerubbabel's and the other one is the eternal temple?

Does this nonsense ever end with these guys? It reminds me of Tim Lahaye teaching that there are two books of life and two groups of 144,000.