Questions about JW’s

[creative111]

So to watchtower doctrine,satan being God,as you point out,and Jesus being God,is one and the same "labeling"

...with the father being what?
....the most high God???

See how I get your perception?

IOW
tell us where you are going.

Watchtower doctrine of course.
Strict watchtower doctrine.

This isn't just WT doctrine, the BIBLE and the apostle PAUL are the ones where the statement "Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe" (NLV) is found. THEY are the ones who label Satan as a god, namely god of this world. If Paul and the Bible says Satan is a type of god, then he's a type of god. However the Bible NEVER speaks of Satan as being the One God the Father who is supreme over ALL, so I have no problem with Pauls's statement. You're the only one who clearly does.

I really don't get what the issue is, 2 Corinthians 4:4 says Satan is "god of this world", ergo Satan has being categorised as a type of god. Obviously we know he's not the one God for 1 Corinthians 8:5 tells us "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—yet for us there is one God, the Father "!

Do you accept that Pauls statement is true? Is Satan god of this world according to 2 Corinthians 4:4?

 

[creative111]

Well hi there creative111. Now there is a common phrase you Jw's like to use? "the god of this system of things." Did you ever read Isaiah 14:12-14, and what God says about this so-called "system of things?"

"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! vs13, "But you said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. vs14, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL MAKE MYSELF LIKE THE MOST HIGH."

The point should be obvious, Satan in his heart will "Make Himself like the most hight." He is not "THE MOST HIGH" now is he creative111? You also quoted John 10:34, "I said; "You are gods." Do you have any idea why Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6? It was not to show the Jews that He was not "a god" of the Bible. I stated this for "food for thought."

The following site explains the issue of "gods." http://bib.irr.org/was-moses-god-exodus-416-and-71

I was unaware that NWL was banned. Since this is the case then perhaps you can address my specific question of why Jesus Christ is identifed as the source and angent of creation? Especially in view of the fact that the Lord God said He crealed all things "BY HIMSELF" and "ALL ALONE?" (Isaiah 44:24) And one more thing, you have my permission to give me more "down votes?"

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I have NOWHERE claimed Satan is God the most high, I don't know where you're are getting this from as my words have been pretty clear. I simply make the same statement that Paul made "Satan is god of this world", I also accept Pauls other words in 1 Corinthians 8:5 "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—yet for us there is but one God, the Father..." . I would put Satan in the category of many gods and the Father into the Category of the one God, the Father. I Couldn't explain it much simpler.

Yes I am well aware of why Jesus referenced Psalms 82:6 to the Jews in John 10:34.

NWL is still (to my knowledge) active of this forum, so assuming that you've been dialoguing with him, you should direct your questions to him.

 

[NWL]

You are lying and you know it. I am trying to determine your intention. Satan is the god of this world, NOT the God of this world. It appears you cannot tell a false god from the real thing. Is your Jesus a created being? I asked that question some time ago and you have not answered while continuing to demand answers from me.

Well done for finally answering and agreeing with what the text says in 2 Cor 4:4, that Satan is god is a specific sense b your statement of "Satan is the god of this world, NOT the God of this world". Now answer the rest of the questions I asked and we can carry on with our discussion and I can finally finalize and explain the reason why I have asked such questions. Here are the questions again:

Was Moses "God to Pharaoh" according to Exo 7:1?
Are angels called Elohim/gods according to Psalms 8:5 compared to Hebrews 2:7?
Did Jesus tell some Jews "you are gods" in John 10:34?
Did Paul state there are "many gods" in 1 Cor 8:5?

 

[notuptome]

Well done for finally answering and agreeing with what the text says in 2 Cor 4:4, that Satan is god is a specific sense b your statement of "Satan is the god of this world, NOT the God of this world". Now answer the rest of the questions I asked and we can carry on with our discussion and I can finally finalize and explain the reason why I have asked such questions. Here are the questions again:

Was Moses "God to Pharaoh" according to Exo 7:1?
Are angels called Elohim/gods according to Psalms 8:5 compared to Hebrews 2:7?
Did Jesus tell some Jews "you are gods" in John 10:34?
Did Paul state there are "many gods" in 1 Cor 8:5?

None of those verses taken in proper context add up the the pretext that you are endeavoring to establish. Proper exegesis solves the problems you are attempting to create.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[NWL]

I was unaware that NWL was banned. Since this is the case then perhaps you can address my specific question of why Jesus Christ is identifed as the source and angent of creation? Especially in view of the fact that the Lord God said He crealed all things "BY HIMSELF" and "ALL ALONE?" (Isaiah 44:24) And one more thing, you have my permission to give me more "down votes?"

Bluto, I am not banned. What disturbing is that you've refused to answer my questions, which, if answered, answers your questions and points you have raised above, yet, you still raise the same points again with creative111. A man once said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results, it is pointless of you to ask the same questions that I have already answered and dealt with. For the third, if not the fourth time, here are the questions I posed to you again that both highlight and answer the questions you raise, answer them:

I showed you Hebrews 2:8 that shows 'God subject all things under man, and left NOTHING NOT subject to him', and stated that using your reasoning that 'nothing' means absolutely 'nothing', does it mean that God and the angels were subjected to man? If not, then does 'nothing' here mean absolutely 'nothing'? <----- Please answer

I also asked you, "when it states Jesus is "first in all things" in Col 1:18, does the "all things" literally mean 'all things' as in 'every single thing'? <--- (Please answer) If so, then is Jesus the first murder?" <---- Please answer

 

[garee]

These are the questions you seem to be overlooking FROM NWL and not myself. See below.

Here are the questions again:

Is Satan "the god of this world" according to 2 Cor 4:4?
Was Moses "God to Pharaoh" according to Exo 7:1?
Are angels called Elohim/gods according to Psalms 8:5 compared to Hebrews 2:7?
Did Jesus tell some Jews "you are gods" in John 10:34?
Did Paul state there are "many gods" in 1 Cor 8:5?

"among whom [satan] the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.." (2 Corinthians 4:4)
"And the Lord [YHWH] said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.."
"You have made them a little lower than the angels [Elohim/gods] and crowned them with glory and honor.." (Psalms 8:5 NIV. Compare Hebrews 2:7)
"God takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges.." (Psalm 82:1)
"Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”..’ (John 10:34)

Moses was not God to the Pharaoh .God has no form. God was God to the Pharaoh.

He not Moses, moved the Pharaoh through signs and wonders .The Pharaoh had no faith(zero) coming from the scriptures. Our father had to kill the first born before they realized they were next.

God is not a man . He remains without mother or father beginning of Spirit life or end thereof .

The unseen Holy Spirit lived in the Son of man's body of death as a prophet apostle. He did not do the will of the flesh. But was used as a living parable all the days of his temporal life.as a demonstration of two working together as one God.

Call no man on earth father the unseen teacher to include Moses. One is in heaven

 

[garee]

Bluto, I am not banned. What disturbing is that you've refused to answer my questions, which, if answered, answers your questions and points you have raised above, yet, you still raise the same points again with creative111. A man once said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results, it is pointless of you to ask the same questions that I have already answered and dealt with. For the third, if not the fourth time, here are the questions I posed to you again that both highlight and answer the questions you raise, answer them:

I showed you Hebrews 2:8 that shows 'God subject all things under man, and left NOTHING NOT subject to him', and stated that using your reasoning that 'nothing' means absolutely 'nothing', does it mean that God and the angels were subjected to man? If not, then does 'nothing' here mean absolutely 'nothing'? <----- Please answer

I also asked you, "when it states Jesus is "first in all things" in Col 1:18, does the "all things" literally mean 'all things' as in 'every single thing'? <--- (Please answer) If so, then is Jesus the first murder?" <---- Please answer

I would think we would get to the heart of the matter concerning how we understand faith . The blood issue that keeps getting changed according to new innovation's of the venerable elders....

What does it men to drink the blood and flesh of mankind in the parable ? Many have died refusing to take in blood.

Why the change in policy? ? Like the Mormons and the cursed blacks. Situation ethics?

What Does the Bible Say About Blood Transfusions? - JW.ORG

www.jw.org/.../bible-about-blood-transfusion
The Bible commands that we not ingest blood. So we should not accept whole blood or its primary components in any form, whether offered as food or as a transfusion. Note the following scriptures: Genesis 9:4. God allowed Noah and his family to add animal flesh to their diet after the Flood but commanded them not to eat the blood.

 

[garee]

I also asked you, "when it states Jesus is "first in all things" in Col 1:18, does the "all things" literally mean 'all things' as in 'every single thing'? <--- (Please answer) If so, then is Jesus the first murder?" <---- Please answer

Jesus the first murder?

All things. He is the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of all things

Satan is the first murderer.

 

[NWL]

Satan has dominion in this world. The world you occupy that was created by Jehovah God. Satan is a god and not God Who is God.

Perfect answer! I 100% agree with you, Satan is a god, as you said, he just isn't the God who is God (namely the 'one God') as you said. However, as you stated and I highlighted before, that still means Satan is a type of GOD according to scripture, you yourself said it in your statement, you said "Satan is a god", that all I've been expressing this whole time and yet have been getting to much hate for it, Satan is a god, or as the verse says "THE GOD of this world", he simply is not the 'one God'.

Was Moses "God to Pharaoh" according to Exo 7:1?

A question that requires a deep answer but you can have only the simple answer. Pharaoh saw himself as a god. Many such gods existed in Egypt. Pharaoh thought his gods equal to the God of Moses and the Hebrews. God demonstrated His superiority by the plagues brought upon Egypt through Moses and during the exodus.

You have nowhere answered my question by your above paragraph, if it does then please explain how it does. My question that still remains answered: Was Moses "God to Pharaoh" according to Exo 7:1?

Angels are never called God and you know that the original manuscripts in the original languages make that clear.

Yes they are, even the writer of Hebrews makes it clear they are. In psalms 8:5 is states "You have made them a little lower than the elohim and crowned them with glory and honor", the term elohim in Hebrew means "GOD", the writer of Hebrew 2:7 quotes Psalms 8:5, notice how he translates is:

(Hebrews 2:7) You made him a little lower than angelous; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands.

The word "angelous" is the Greek word for angels, which means the writer of Hebrews read and knew the term 'elohim' was used in Psalms 8:5 but understood it to be in reference to angels, hence the reason why he used the word 'angel' and not elohim in Ps 8:5, its also the reason why many bibles render the term 'Elohim' in Psalms 8:5 as 'angels'. So by you saying "Angels aren't called Elohim/GODS" you are disagreeing with many translators and even the inspired writer of Hebrews.

Did Jesus tell some Jews "you are gods" in John 10:34?

Jesus quoted Psalms 82:6 where it is clear that Jesus also tells them they are children of the Most High God clearly distinguishing them for God Himself.
Paul actually says they are called gods not the they are gods and most certainly not God Who is God.

Nowhere have I expressed that when other beings are called GOD who are not the 'one God' that they themselves are the 'one God' by being referred by the term GOD. I've always maintained the bible can and does use the term God with different sense at times, it having a secondary lesser sense when applied to people who are not the 'one God'. You also nowhere answered my quesiton but just highlighted that the people Jesus were speaking to were not the 'one God', which I myself also believe. So my question still remains, Did Jesus tell some Jews "you are gods" in John 10:34?

Did Paul state there are "many gods" in 1 Cor 8:5?

Paul actually says they are called gods not the they are gods and most certainly not God Who is God.

No, he clearly differentiates between "so-called gods", and the "many gods and many lords", the text says "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords", yet for us there is but one God, the Father", my question was in relation to when he mentioned the "many gods" and not the "so-called gods". Thus, my question remains unanswered, here it is again if you want to answer it this time, Did Paul state there are "many gods" in 1 Cor 8:5?

John 10:30 Jesus says that He and the Father are One. One God of which Jesus is completely united and unified.

No, Jesus did not say he and the Father were one God, he simply said he and the Father were one, there was nothing about being one in deity mentioned in the verse. In fact, John 17:20,21 also highlights that followers of Christ be one 'just as' he and the Father are one, so John 10:30 definitely cannot be in relation to one in deity, or else followers of christ are also God since they are one with them 'just as' they are one.

(John 17:21,22) "..that they [my followers] all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.."

 

[Sipsey]

Perfect answer! I 100% agree with you, Satan is a god, as you said, he just isn't the God who is God (namely the 'one God') as you said. However, as you stated and I highlighted before, that still means Satan is a type of GOD according to scripture, you yourself said it in your statement, you said "Satan is a god", that all I've been expressing this whole time and yet have been getting to much hate for it, Satan is a god, or as the verse says "THE GOD of this world", he simply is not the 'one God'.


You have nowhere answered my question by your above paragraph, if it does then please explain how it does. My question that still remains answered: Was Moses "God to Pharaoh" according to Exo 7:1?


Yes they are, even the writer of Hebrews makes it clear they are. In psalms 8:5 is states "You have made them a little lower than the elohim and crowned them with glory and honor", the term elohim in Hebrew means "GOD", the writer of Hebrew 2:7 quotes Psalms 8:5, notice how he translates is:

(Hebrews 2:7) You made him a little lower than angelous; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands.

The word "angelous" is the Greek word for angels, which means the writer of Hebrews read and knew the term 'elohim' was used in Psalms 8:5 but understood it to be in reference to angels, hence the reason why he used the word 'angel' and not elohim in Ps 8:5, its also the reason why many bibles render the term 'Elohim' in Psalms 8:5 as 'angels'. So by you saying "Angels aren't called Elohim/GODS" you are disagreeing with many translators and even the inspired writer of Hebrews.


Nowhere have I expressed that when other beings are called GOD who are not the 'one God' that they themselves are the 'one God' by being referred by the term GOD. I've always maintained the bible can and does use the term God with different sense at times, it having a secondary lesser sense when applied to people who are not the 'one God'. You also nowhere answered my quesiton but just highlighted that the people Jesus were speaking to were not the 'one God', which I myself also believe. So my question still remains, Did Jesus tell some Jews "you are gods" in John 10:34?


No, he clearly differentiates between "so-called gods", and the "many gods and many lords", the text says "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords", yet for us there is but one God, the Father", my question was in relation to when he mentioned the "many gods" and not the "so-called gods". Thus, my question remains unanswered, here it is again if you want to answer it this time, Did Paul state there are "many gods" in 1 Cor 8:5?
No, Jesus did not say he and the Father were one God, he simply said he and the Father were one, there was nothing about being one in deity mentioned in the verse. In fact, John 17:20,21 also highlights that followers of Christ be one 'just as' he and the Father are one, so John 10:30 definitely cannot be in relation to one in deity, or else followers of christ are also God since they are one with them 'just as' they are one.

(John 17:21,22) "..that they [my followers] all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.."

How long have you been a member of the JW?

 

[NWL]

How long have you been a member of the JW?

29 years.

 

[Sipsey]

29 years.

What do you think Jesus meant in these verses?

5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

 

[biker]

How can something, come from within God Himself, that is used for a PURPOSE (the WORD), be a Created Being when it is still God Himself?

 

[creative111]

How can something, come from within God Himself, that is used for a PURPOSE (the WORD), be a Created Being when it is still God Himself?

A better question is How can something, come from within God Himself, that is used for a PURPOSE (Gods Wisdom), be a Created Being when it is a eternal Godly quality?

Proverbs 8:22,23 - "The LORD created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago. I was made in the very beginning, at the first, before the world began" GNT

 

[biker]

A better question is How can something, come from within God Himself, that is used for a PURPOSE (Gods Wisdom), be a Created Being when it is a eternal Godly quality?

Proverbs 8:22,23 - "The LORD created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago. I was made in the very beginning, at the first, before the world began" GNT

In the Hebrew, Solomon, was claiming he (like all of us) were Created before He (God) created the Heaven's and the Earth.

Why not use the actual Hebrew?

It would clarify what/who Solomon is talking about.


And notice, the LORD, which is the WORD, which is the CREATOR of ALL!

 

[biker]

In the Hebrew, Solomon, was claiming he (like all of us) were Created before He (God) created the Heaven's and the Earth.

Why not use the actual Hebrew?

It would clarify what/who Solomon is talking about.


And notice, the LORD, which is the WORD, which is the CREATOR of ALL!

Have you never been taught that God knew who we were, the Book of Life was already known like the Book of Judgement before God ever Spoke the first thing into existence?

 

[biker]

Genesis 2 tells us when God created He Created by "Generations" of things.

The grass was not a seed but it was grass.
The tree was a tree not a sapling.
Adam was a full grown man, not a child.

We were already Created literally 6,000 (however long but at least 6,000 years since Adam was on Earth) years before we entered our Mother's womb.

 

[bojack]

A better question is How can something, come from within God Himself, that is used for a PURPOSE (Gods Wisdom), be a Created Being when it is a eternal Godly quality?

Proverbs 8:22,23 - "The LORD created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago. I was made in the very beginning, at the first, before the world began" GNT

Is God a respecter of persons ?

 

[NWL]

What do you think Jesus meant in these verses?

5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

Jesus came in the Father's name, "I have come in the name of my Father" (John 5:43), and did and spoke the things the Father told him to say, "the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak" (John 12:49), so when Jesus stated he was 'the way, truth, and the light', this was in relation to the things the Father had revealed through Jesus, the words Jesus spoke were not his, but rather the Fathers, "The words that I speak to you, I do not speak from Myself; but the Father dwelling in Me does His works" (John 14:10).

When Jesus said "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him", in John 14:7, this was in relation to seeing and knowing the Father by the words the Father was speaking through Jesus, and the fact that Jesus acted like his Father, the same way many human sons takes after their own earthly father, expect, Jesus mirrors the Father so perfectly to see him is akin to seeing the Father.

 

[Scribe]

I live right in the neighborhood of the Hill kimora. Jehovah witnesses are all around me. They are a cult.
They are not allowed nor practice reading the Bible they have a second Bible which was written by Joseph Smith that they follow.
Joseph Smith said that the Bible was incorrect. That Satan had corrupted the written word.
They believe that Jesus came to the Americas after his Ascension and gave Joseph Smith the true vision.
Need I go any further?

That is the Mormons, Church of Latterday Saints. JWs use the New World Tranlation which is not a terrible translation except they have purposely translated certain verses that support their bad hermeneutics where it suits their cause.