Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[Runningman]

It occurred to me yesterday that if on Matthew 24 the return of Jesus is compared to the flood in the days of Noah then we should take another look at the great flood.

Noah and his 7 other family members were the only good people on the planet. Noah and his family coexisted with the unrighteous on the planet up until the flood came. The ark saved them.

In Matthew 24 we see that in order for the coming of the Son of Man to be compared to the great flood in the days of Noah, then the righteous will have to be coexisting with a wicked world. The ark is a symbol of Christ and Christ comes after the great tribulation. Christ's coming wipes out the wicked and saves the righteous.

Post-tribulationism is absolutely Biblical.

A study of Matthew 24 is really how we should be viewing the rapture and seeing how the rest of scriptures mesh with it rather than attempting to conform doctrine to any other pretense.

 

[Absolutely]

There is "One" future time of resurrection for all that have lived, both righteous and wicked Daniel 12:1-2, John 5:28-29

This takes place immediately after the tribulation, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, Matthew 24:29-31

Daniel below clearly shows this last day resurrection, at the time of tribulation, the books are open, righteous and wicked.

Last Day Resurrection Of All!

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Last Day Resurrection Of All!

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Last Day Resurrection Of All!

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Last Day Resurrection Of All!

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Factor in rev 14 alongside 1 thes 4

Do that and that "1 resurrection" idea goes away.

 

[Absolutely]

It occurred to me yesterday that if on Matthew 24 the return of Jesus is compared to the flood in the days of Noah then we should take another look at the great flood.

Noah and his 7 other family members were the only good people on the planet. Noah and his family coexisted with the unrighteous on the planet up until the flood came. The ark saved them.

In Matthew 24 we see that in order for the coming of the Son of Man to be compared to the great flood in the days of Noah, then the righteous will have to be coexisting with a wicked world. The ark is a symbol of Christ and Christ comes after the great tribulation. Christ's coming wipes out the wicked and saves the righteous.

Post-tribulationism is absolutely Biblical.

A study of Matthew 24 is really how we should be viewing the rapture and seeing how the rest of scriptures mesh with it rather than attempting to conform doctrine to any other pretense.

Nope.

You need Noah Removed (raptured) AFTER THE FLOOD.

Remember how Jesus framed it???
He said "BEFORE THE FLOOD"

Jesus painted the picture VIVIDLY.
They entered the ark PREFLOOD.
PREFLOOD/PRETRIB THEY ENTERED THE ARK.

"ARK" IS A TYPE OF HEAVEN.
100% lining up with pretrib rapture so far?....yes

But wait...
They were taken over a mile into the sky.
Via the water.
Water is a type of the word of God...or Jesus.
40 days and 40 nights. ...40 is testing/judgement.
Still 100% pretrib rapture?...yes

Let's proceed.
Noah returns to a destroyed earth...as do we when we return to earth with Jesus.

Still 100% pretrib rapture picture? .....yes

Ok...so at this point of the picture ,with noah ,postribs say Noah is removed(after the flood)
Impossible...100% impossible

Pretrib rapture
Yet another slam dunk.

 

[Runningman]

Nope.

You need Noah Removed (raptured) AFTER THE FLOOD.

Remember how Jesus framed it???
He said "BEFORE THE FLOOD"

Jesus painted the picture VIVIDLY.
They entered the ark PREFLOOD.
PREFLOOD/PRETRIB THEY ENTERED THE ARK.

"ARK" IS A TYPE OF HEAVEN.
100% lining up with pretrib rapture so far?....yes

But wait...
They were taken over a mile into the sky.
Via the water.
Water is a type of the word of God...or Jesus.
40 days and 40 nights. ...40 is testing/judgement.
Still 100% pretrib rapture?...yes

Let's proceed.
Noah returns to a destroyed earth...as do we when we return to earth with Jesus.

Still 100% pretrib rapture picture? .....yes

Ok...so at this point of the picture ,with noah ,postribs say Noah is removed(after the flood)
Impossible...100% impossible

Pretrib rapture
Yet another slam dunk.

Um no.

I don't think pre-trib is Biblical but it's fine if you do.

The way I see it is the days of Noah (pre-flood) were like what the great-tribulation will be (pre-Christ). Noah coexiested with the wicked world pre-flood.

The flood was God's judgement and Christ's return is God's judgement on a wicked world.

Pre-tribulation believes that believers are taken before the return of Christ even occurs, but that is impossible without going through the tribulation the way the Bible presents this.

In other words, in order for your pre-tribulation doctrine to make sense Noah would have had be saved before the flood came and not present for the actual flood itself. This is not only a literary impossibility, but logically unsound and not a realistic possibility.

Slam dunk for post-trib rapture

 

[John146]

According to revelation it has already come according to your interpretation of revelation it hasn’t come.

Sooo, the GWTJ has also occurred? The new heaven and earth come after.

 

[Truth7t7]

We have two things in common, the KJV and I'm gonna kill some fish tomorrow, good luck.

Change of plans, hopefully tomorrow?

 

[Truth7t7]

Sooo, the GWTJ has also occurred? The new heaven and earth come after.

John he's a "Full Preterist" are you aware of this teaching?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It occurred to me yesterday that if on Matthew 24 the return of Jesus is compared to the flood in the days of Noah then we should take another look at the great flood.

Noah and his 7 other family members were the only good people on the planet. Noah and his family coexisted with the unrighteous on the planet up until the flood came. The ark saved them.

In Matthew 24 we see that in order for the coming of the Son of Man to be compared to the great flood in the days of Noah, then the righteous will have to be coexisting with a wicked world. The ark is a symbol of Christ and Christ comes after the great tribulation. Christ's coming wipes out the wicked and saves the righteous.

Post-tribulationism is absolutely Biblical.

A study of Matthew 24 is really how we should be viewing the rapture and seeing how the rest of scriptures mesh with it rather than attempting to conform doctrine to any other pretense.

A study of Matthew 24:38-39 (for one example among others) shows us the following:

--"until the day that Noah entered into the ark" is contrasted with

--"and [they] knew not until the flood came and took them all away" --the "them" here are those being judged and "taken away" in that judgment


It wasn't Noah that "knew not".

Noah "knew" and prepared the ark (for a lengthy period of time prior to the flood);

...and he was "a preacher of righteousness" (2Pet2:5; and this is also what 1Pet3:19-20 refers to: Jesus... "[in Spirit]... also went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water." His instrument was Noah.)

Noah "knew". But (by contrast) "THEY knew not until". But this doesn't mean they were wholly ignorant of it beforehand (after all, they had the message of the [lengthy] preparing of the ark, the words and actions of Noah a preacher of righteousness, and the parade of the animals heading to the ark), it's that they disregarded the word of God via Noah, and thus (disregarding it) perished in the flood judgment.

Again, Noah is a picture [not of our Rapture--of which Enoch is a picture (ONE MAN, taken up), but] of those who come through the tribulation period and exist on the earth [i.e. ENTER the MK age] in MORTAL bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children; compare Dan2:35's "[actively] FILLED the whole earth" with Genesis 9:1's "[actively] FILL the earth" and with these passages comparing that future time period with "as it was in the days of Noah"/"as the days of Noah were" (and adds, "so shall it also be in the days of the Son of man" [Lk17:26]/"so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"[Matt24:37]--where the phrase "Son of man coming/cometh/shall come/etc" always refers to His Second Coming to the earth"[-designation], to judge and to reign [not our Rapture, per context]).



Besides all of that, Matt24 is speaking entirely of what takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture

(...and this can be seen when you trace out all the connecting points, which I've endeavored to show in past posts, so won't do so here ).

Matthew 24 is speaking of the specific, future, limited time period that LEADS UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Truth7t7]

It occurred to me yesterday that if on Matthew 24 the return of Jesus is compared to the flood in the days of Noah then we should take another look at the great flood.

Noah and his 7 other family members were the only good people on the planet. Noah and his family coexisted with the unrighteous on the planet up until the flood came. The ark saved them.

In Matthew 24 we see that in order for the coming of the Son of Man to be compared to the great flood in the days of Noah, then the righteous will have to be coexisting with a wicked world. The ark is a symbol of Christ and Christ comes after the great tribulation. Christ's coming wipes out the wicked and saves the righteous.

Post-tribulationism is absolutely Biblical.

A study of Matthew 24 is really how we should be viewing the rapture and seeing how the rest of scriptures mesh with it rather than attempting to conform doctrine to any

other pretense.

Matthew 24:29-31 is key

These verses show that Jesus returns "Immediately after the tribulation"

Done deal!

The pre-tribbers have Swiss cheese in their false teachings, they change the meaning of scripture trying "Desperately" to make the fairy tale work?

Last Trump isn't Last Trump

Last Day isn't Last Day

God's Elect in Matt 24 are Jews and not the Church

They use the second coming of Jesus Christ, and claim its a pre-trib rapture.

Thousand Years seen in Rev 20:1-7 means a kingdom on earth with humans present

 

[Ahwatukee]

Then according to what your saying the world is at this point in time under the fourth kingdom(Two legs,ten toes/ten kingdoms ect.) and the stone cut out and cast at them is future tense meaning that the kingdom now present is not the same as "the one that will never be destroyed"?

Obviously I can't tell who you are responding to. However, regarding the four kingdoms:

Head of Gold = Babylon

Chest and Arms of Silver = Medo/Persia

Belly and thighs of Bronze = Greece

Legs of Iron = Rome

Ten toes of Iron = Extended/Revived Roman Empire (future)

The ten toes correspond to the ten horns on the beast with the seven heads.

The legs of iron was Rome, which is that city that ruled over the kings of the earth. However, the future ten-toed kingdom will not have the same power that it did when it was all iron, because it will be made up of partly baked clay and partly iron.

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24 is speaking of the specific, future, limited time period that LEADS UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom.

There will be no future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, this is a false teaching invented by man, found no place in the Holy Scripture.

 

[Runningman]

A study of Matthew 24:38-39 (for one example among others) shows us the following:

--"until the day that Noah entered into the ark" is contrasted with

--"and [they] knew not until the flood came and took them all away" --the "them" here are those being judged and "taken away" in that judgment


It wasn't Noah that "knew not".

Noah "knew" and prepared the ark (for a lengthy period of time prior to the flood);

...and he was "a preacher of righteousness" (2Pet2:5; and this is also what 1Pet3:19-20 refers to: Jesus... "[in Spirit]... also went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water." His instrument was Noah.)

Noah "knew". But (by contrast) "THEY knew not until". But this doesn't mean they were wholly ignorant of it beforehand (after all, they had the message of the [lengthy] preparing of the ark, the words and actions of Noah a preacher of righteousness, and the parade of the animals heading to the ark), it's that they disregarded the word of God via Noah, and thus (disregarding it) perished in the flood judgment.

Again, Noah is a picture [not of our Rapture--of which Enoch is a picture (ONE MAN, taken up), but] of those who come through the tribulation period and exist on the earth [i.e. ENTER the MK age] in MORTAL bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children; compare Dan2:35's "[actively] FILLED the whole earth" with Genesis 9:1's "[actively] FILL the earth" and with these passages comparing that future time period with "as it was in the days of Noah"/"as the days of Noah were" (and adds, "so shall it also be in the days of the Son of man" [Lk17:26]/"so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"[Matt24:37]--where the phrase "Son of man coming/cometh/shall come/etc" always refers to His Second Coming to the earth"[-designation], to judge and to reign [not our Rapture, per context]).



Besides all of that, Matt24 is speaking entirely of what takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture

(...and this can be seen when you trace out all the connecting points, which I've endeavored to show in past posts, so won't do so here ).

Matthew 24 is speaking of the specific, future, limited time period that LEADS UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom.

We mostly still disagree overall then. I understand the semantics and definitions you pointed out in your post, but I still think the timing is different. The comparison between the the days of Noah/flood and the great tribulation/Return of Christ and how those relate to the rapture are crystal clear to me. I leave it for people to decide what they want to believe.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Matthew 24:29-31 is key
These verses show that Jesus returns "Immediately after the tribulation"

Done deal!

Jesus indeed "RETURNS" in that passage, because that is what that context is speaking of [may the readers compare this passage with that of Isaiah 27:12-13, and note "GREAT trumpet" and OF WHOM it is speaking, and TO WHERE].

He "returns" ONCE... that is, AFTER the trib, as this Matt24/Isa27 passages show (that is, TO THE EARTH); But do not conflate these passages with our Rapture "IN THE AIR" (where it is NOT His "RETURN" [to the earth] ; they are DISTINCT and with distinct purposes)

The pre-tribbers have Swiss cheese in their false teachings, they change the meaning of scripture trying "Desperately" to make the fairy tale work?

 

[Truth7t7]

Factor in rev 14 alongside 1 thes 4

Do that and that "1 resurrection" idea goes away.

Rev 14 & 1 Thess 4 is nothing more than the second coming and Last Day resurrection seen in parallel teachings in "Several" places throughout the Scripture.

Your false claim of a pre-trib rapture, is nothing more than the ole "Bait & Switch", trying desperately to disguise the second coming as a pre-trib rapture.

Surprise, we see the rabbit in the hat

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus indeed "RETURNS" in that passage, because that is what that context is speaking of [may the readers compare this passage with that of Isaiah 27:12-13, and note "GREAT trumpet" and OF WHOM it is speaking, and TO WHERE].

He "returns" ONCE... that is, AFTER the trib, as this Matt24/Isa27 passages show (that is, TO THE EARTH); But do not conflate these passages with our Rapture "IN THE AIR" (where it is NOT His "RETURN" [to the earth] ; they are DISTINCT and with distinct purposes)

Is this Rapture you describe a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven?

If yes, please post Scripture to support this claim.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

We mostly still disagree overall then. I understand the semantics and definitions you pointed out in your post, but I still think the timing is different. The comparison between the the days of Noah/flood and the great tribulation/Return of Christ and how those relate to the rapture are crystal clear to me. I leave it for people to decide what they want to believe.

I think the grammar itself, alone, shows it

(and that is besides everything else I've showed... including the fact that, up until Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse, and including it, He had not yet spoken anything about taking anyone UP / "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," but all about His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, promised especially to Israel, which is what v.33 refers to where it says, "...know that IT is near, even at the doors" [for at that future time (in the trib yrs, following our rapture), it will indeed be "near"--they will "see all these things" spoken of in the chpt, even "the beginning of birth PANGS" which are the equivalent of the "SEALS" of Rev6, which are said to be included in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Rev1:1[/1:19c/4:1] spoke of; not merely the second half, 3.5 yrs alone , despite what some suggest])

 

[Absolutely]

Um no.

I don't think pre-trib is Biblical but it's fine if you do.

The way I see it is the days of Noah (pre-flood) were like what the great-tribulation will be (pre-Christ). Noah coexiested with the wicked world pre-flood.

The flood was God's judgement and Christ's return is God's judgement on a wicked world.

Pre-tribulation believes that believers are taken before the return of Christ even occurs, but that is impossible without going through the tribulation the way the Bible presents this.

In other words, in order for your pre-tribulation doctrine to make sense Noah would have had be saved before the flood came and not present for the actual flood itself. This is not only a literary impossibility, but logically unsound and not a realistic possibility.

Slam dunk for post-trib rapture

""
In other words, in order for your pre-tribulation doctrine to make sense Noah would have had be saved before the flood came and not present for the actual flood itself. This is not only a literary impossibility, but logically unsound and not a realistic possibility.""

....you just pointed it out.
Jesus said "b4 the flood "

....and the noah deal was indeed BEFORE THE FLOOD.
HE ENTERED B4 THE FLOOD.

Thank you.

Remember,your beliefs have Noah LEAVING EARTH AFTER THE FLOOD.

BIBLE IS TRUE
Noah did not leave the earth after the flood.

Only you think it.

 

[Absolutely]

Is this Rapture you describe a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven?

If yes, please post Scripture to support this claim.

Yes we have the verses

Your position is one of omitting our verses.

Show me a you tube of any postrib teacher that includes our verses.

It is not whether we have them...you have seen them.
The point is you ignore them.

 

[Truth7t7]

If present world conditions and anarchy in America are what Christ's Millennium looks like, then God help us all. Can you see the absurdity of your statement? Unless -- of course -- your concept of an imaginary Millennium is sin, evil, wickedness, and anarchy.

You have a false concept, that a future Millennium on this physical earth is a reality

Just as a 5 year old child has of Santa Claus and the sleigh of reindeer in the air.

Revelation 20:1-6 that is the "Foundation" for this teaching of a kingdom on earth, with humans present is 100% in the Lords spiritual realm of no time.

Below you see Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% The Lord's Spiritual Realm, Of No Literal Earthly Time, No Physical Kingdom On Earth, No Humans Seen, "None"!

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Is this Rapture you describe a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven?

If yes, please post Scripture to support this claim.

I've shown many times:

--Revelation 5:9 has the "24 elders" (who are wearing "crowns/stephanous" of gold and sitting on "24 THRONES") are up in Heaven [BEFORE the opening of the FIRST SEAL (i.e. BP #1), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE"]), who are saying, "because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of [ek] every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation" (and I'd provided 1Cor6:3[14] and many other passages). Matthew 24:29-31 is not speaking of US/'the Church WHICHIS HIS BODY' being gathered (which will have taken place BEFORE anything in Matt24 even commences to unfold upon the earth... but I don't want to repeat all those lengthy posts here in this post that I'm trying to keep short. )