Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[Truth7t7]

I've shown many times:

--Revelation 5:9 has the "24 elders" (who are wearing "crowns/stephanous" of gold and sitting on "24 THRONES") are up in Heaven [BEFORE the opening of the FIRST SEAL (i.e. BP #1), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE"]), who are saying, "because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of [ek] every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation" (and I'd provided 1Cor6:3[14] and many other passages). Matthew 24:29-31 is not speaking of US/'the Church WHICHIS HIS BODY' being gathered (which will have taken place BEFORE anything in Matt24 even commences to unfold upon the earth... but I don't want to repeat all those lengthy posts here in this post that I'm trying to keep short. )

Nothing you have shown in this post supports a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes we have the verses

Your position is one of omitting our verses.

Show me a you tube of any postrib teacher that includes our verses.

It is not whether we have them...you have seen them.
The point is you ignore them.

I dont ignore verses you claim are a pre-trib rapture

The verses you present are nothing more than the second coming that you claim is a different event.

You won't post scripture, because You know well its actually nothing more than the second coming, as seen in multiple parallel teachings throughout the Scripture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived [ ezēsan ] and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I noticed you left off bolding one of the key phrases in this text, so I helped you out ^


Same word as was used of Jesus in Rev2:8

--"which was dead" [just like those "beheaded" will have been]

--"and is ALIVE" / "and LIVED" [hover cursor over the ezēsen word at link: https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/2-8.htm ]


"and" means something additional to the "was dead" part.


[and, besides that, even if that weren't enough, there are places showing the word "souls" to be not referring to "body-less" persons--like Acts 2:41, and Acts 27:37 "And we were in all in the ship two hundred and threescore and sixteen SOULS" ]

 

[Jimbone]

Oh, but it does pertain to salvation! Hymeneas and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. And regarding them Paul said that it was godless chatter, that it would spread like gangrene and that they had wandered away from the truth and were destroying the faith of some. So yes, false teachings on this subject is eternal life threatening.

The scriptures are very clear in regards to the nature of the Resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up. Those who come up with these other teachings are not paying attention to what the scripture says and are listening to or reading the false teachings of men and adopting them.

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

Hey man with all due respect I have to point out you are wrong when you say "Oh, but it does pertain to salvation!", and I KNOW you are wrong because I've believed both teachings....While saved FOR SURE. You have no idea what you're talking about in this matter and shouldn't spread false teachings, which was exactly what that was, and as a brother I have to tell you you're wrong. You do not need to know 1 thing about eschatology to be saved, period.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Nothing you have shown in this post supports a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven.

Let me ask you this (since I forget your position on this point):

what (and when) are you saying "SEAL #1" is?



[may the readers recall... I believe Rev1:1[/1:19c/4:1] is stating that everything from 4:1 onward (to Rev19) takes place in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" 1:1 time period, same time frame that the 13:5/11:3 time period is ALSO INCLUDED in!! (so, both SEAL #1 and Jesus' Rev19 "RETURN" to the earth are included in this "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period--i.e. "the 7-yrs" spans of time [which, as I see it, can be laid out on a calendar--traced out like the skeleton outline using the info provided in the text--for example, "kings" went "out to battle" at a very specific time of the year (Rev19)])]

 

[Runningman]

""
In other words, in order for your pre-tribulation doctrine to make sense Noah would have had be saved before the flood came and not present for the actual flood itself. This is not only a literary impossibility, but logically unsound and not a realistic possibility.""

....you just pointed it out.
Jesus said "b4 the flood "

....and the noah deal was indeed BEFORE THE FLOOD.
HE ENTERED B4 THE FLOOD.

Thank you.

Remember,your beliefs have Noah LEAVING EARTH AFTER THE FLOOD.

BIBLE IS TRUE
Noah did not leave the earth after the flood.

Only you think it.

Plain No.

Noah and his family entered the ark the day the flood began.

6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. Genesis 7:6-7

And believers will go with Jesus the day Jesus returns.

39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Matthew 24:39-40

So the righteous are saved at just the right moment, not before the time of tribulation. The righteous are taken at the moment of wrath and judgement and spared from it or sheltered from it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Plain No.

Noah and his family entered the ark the day the flood began.

6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. Genesis 7:6-7

Read both vv.4 and 10 along with that verse ^ :

Verse 4 -

Berean Study Bible
For seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living thing I have made.”

New American Standard Bible
"For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made."

King James Bible
For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.




Verse 10 - [after v.5 says "5 And Noah did all that the LORD had commanded him."] -

Berean Study Bible
And after seven days the floodwaters came upon the earth.

New American Standard Bible
It came about after the seven days, that the water of the flood came upon the earth.

King James Bible
And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.




So, it went like this:

5 And Noah did all that the LORD had commanded him. [...] 7 And Noah and his wife, with his sons and their wives, entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. 8 The clean and unclean animals, the birds, and everything that crawls along the ground 9came to Noah to enter the ark, two by two, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And after seven days the floodwaters came upon the earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ And I would add again, that Luke 21:36 is not a rapture verse ("escape / flee out of" G1628 [actively 'flee out of' (flee out of each and every thing)]), but instruction for those who find themselves IN the trib. ["watch, and pray always, SO THAT...," which is completely distinct from what 1Th5:10 is saying to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," as I showed in past posts]

 

[Absolutely]

Plain No.

Noah and his family entered the ark the day the flood began.

6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. Genesis 7:6-7

And believers will go with Jesus the day Jesus returns.

39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Matthew 24:39-40

So the righteous are saved at just the right moment, not before the time of tribulation. The righteous are taken at the moment of wrath and judgement and spared from it or sheltered from it.

Great omissions!!!
God job!!!
You successfully omitted my verses!!

 

[Nehemiah6]

Hey man with all due respect I have to point out you are wrong when you say "Oh, but it does pertain to salvation!", and I KNOW you are wrong because I've believed both teachings.

Actually the Resurrection/Rapture does pertain to salvation very definitely. So Ahwatukee is correct.

Now here is how that pertains to salvation. Salvation occurs in three phases: (1) justification, (2) sanctification, and (3) glorification (or perfection). The Resurrection/Rapture cannot be separated from the glorification and perfection of the saints, and that cannot be separated from the CULMINATION of salvation. Unfortunately, too many Christians are not taught this truth, therefore you have also kinds of false beliefs floating around.

The Bible is very clear that (1) the Resurrection/Rapture is one event which includes both the saints who passed on and the ones who are alive when Christ comes for His Bride, and (2) this event has absolutely nothing to do with the Tribulation, since the Tribulation is specifically for unbelieving Jews ("the time of Jacob's trouble").

 

[Absolutely]

I dont ignore verses you claim are a pre-trib rapture

The verses you present are nothing more than the second coming that you claim is a different event.

You won't post scripture, because You know well its actually nothing more than the second coming, as seen in multiple parallel teachings throughout the Scripture.

Ok,pick one and actually unpack it
Mat 25
Mat 24
1 thes 4
Rev 14
The 2 escape verses
Rev 19
The last supper dialogue

 

[Truth7t7]

I noticed you left off bolding one of the key phrases in this text, so I helped you out ^


Same word as was used of Jesus in Rev2:8

--"which was dead" [just like those "beheaded" will have been]

--"and is ALIVE" / "and LIVED" [hover cursor over the ezēsen word at link: https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/2-8.htm ]


"and" means something additional to the "was dead" part.


[and, besides that, even if that weren't enough, there are places showing the word "souls" to be not referring to "body-less" persons--like Acts 2:41, and Acts 27:37 "And we were in all in the ship two hundred and threescore and sixteen SOULS" ]

Lived and Reigned?

The believer is in the "Living", the wicked are "Dead"

You disregard the book of Revelation to interpret "Souls" and go to Acts?

We clearly see the souls are in the "Spiritual Realm" just as seen in Revelation 20:1-6KJV

How long will one "Run" from presented truth.

Revelation 6:9-10KJV
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 20:4KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

How long will one "Run" from presented truth.
Revelation 6:9-10KJV
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 20:4KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not [don't forget this part:... "AND THEY LIVED [G2198]" !! ]

G2198 as used in the following verses (and NOTE that this is MISSING from your Rev6:9-10 passage!!! coz these folks are still 'under the altar' in that context)... and which is DISTINCT FROM the Rev6:9-10 scene, mind you :

1) Luke 24:23 -
"and not having found His body, they came declaring to have also seen a vision of angels, who say He is alive [G2198]."

2) Acts 1:3 -
"to whom He also presented Himself alive [G2198] after His suffering with many proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God."

3) Acts 25:19 -
"But they had certain questions against him concerning their own religion and concerning a certain Jesus having been dead, whom Paul was affirming to be alive [G2198]."

4) Revelation 1:18b -
"[BLB] [...] And I was dead, and behold I am living [G2198] to the ages of the ages [/forever/forevermore], and I have the keys of Death and of Hades."

"KJV] [...] and was dead; and, behold, I am alive [G2198] for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

5) Revelation 2:8 -
"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive [G2198]"



6) Revelation 20:4c [and v.5, below] -

"[v.4c] [...] and they lived [G2198] and reigned with Christ a thousand years." [which is in DIRECT CONTRAST to...]

7) "[v.5] The rest of the dead NOT did live [G2198] UNTIL the 1000 years were concluded"

How long will one "Run" from presented truth.

 

[Truth7t7]

Let me ask you this (since I forget your position on this point):

what (and when) are you saying "SEAL #1" is?



[may the readers recall... I believe Rev1:1[/1:19c/4:1] is stating that everything from 4:1 onward (to Rev19) takes place in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" 1:1 time period, same time frame that the 13:5/11:3 time period is ALSO INCLUDED in!! (so, both SEAL #1 and Jesus' Rev19 "RETURN" to the earth are included in this "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period--i.e. "the 7-yrs" spans of time [which, as I see it, can be laid out on a calendar--traced out like the skeleton outline using the info provided in the text--for example, "kings" went "out to battle" at a very specific time of the year (Rev19)])]

There is a future 3.5 year tribulation, your claim of 7 years is false and not found in Scripture, you have been shown the false teaching on weeks of years.

Once again your post is major (Confusion)
Brackets, caps, size, colors, underline,

Just trying to help

 

[Truth7t7]

G2198 as used in the following verses (and NOTE that this is MISSING from your Rev6:9-10 passage!!! coz these folks are still 'under the altar' in that context)... and which is DISTINCT FROM the Rev6:9-10 scene, mind you :

1) Luke 24:23 -
"and not having found His body, they came declaring to have also seen a vision of angels, who say He is alive [G2198]."

2) Acts 1:3 -
"to whom He also presented Himself alive [G2198] after His suffering with many proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God."

3) Acts 25:19 -
"But they had certain questions against him concerning their own religion and concerning a certain Jesus having been dead, whom Paul was affirming to be alive [G2198]."

4) Revelation 1:18b -
"[BLB] [...] And I was dead, and behold I am living [G2198] to the ages of the ages [/forever/forevermore], and I have the keys of Death and of Hades."

"KJV] [...] and was dead; and, behold, I am alive [G2198] for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

5) Revelation 2:8 -
"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive [G2198]"



6) Revelation 20:4c [and v.5, below] -

"[v.4c] [...] and they lived [G2198] and reigned with Christ a thousand years." [which is in DIRECT CONTRAST to...]

7) "[v.5] The rest of the dead NOT did live [G2198] UNTIL the 1000 years were concluded"

You have presented nothing to refute the fact that the "Souls" in Rev 20:4 are spiritual beings reigning.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is a future 3.5 year tribulation, your claim of 7 years is false and not found in Scripture, you have been shown the false teaching on weeks of years.

I'm asking you, "when" (and "what") was Seal #1? What was it, and when did it take place, in your view? (since I can't tell, from what you've said here)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You have presented nothing to refute the fact that the "Souls" in Rev 20:4 are spiritual beings reigning.

I had supplied the parallels Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 being the same as the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], which passage shows to have a TIME-PERIOD that follows that "punish" before the second of the two "punish" words is carried out.

This is consistent with:

--Rev19 and Rev 20:11-15 being distinct judgments (with a spans of time separating them) ["to judge the LIVING/the QUICK and the DEAD"... but not in the same split-second moment of time, as the "chronology" (which is very detailed) in a number of passages spells out to us, as the progressive revelation unfolds for us IN SCRIPTURE (example: "no man knows [PERFECT indicative; not even Jesus in His earthly ministry]"... but which now He has disclosed in the LATER "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO...") ];

--"the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven" (following the specific "time period" of verse 25, which involves the "person of interest" in vv.20-24 who is parallel to Rev13:5-7,1 [the 'mouth' / person]);

--Revelation 19:15b saying "and He SHALL [future tense to this point in the chronology] shepherd/rule them [the nations--nations are ON THE EARTH] with a rod/sceptre of iron [righteousness and strength]"

--everything Jesus spoke about in the Gospels accounts (which, up until His Olivet Discourse and INCLUDING it, was not yet speaking ANYTHING re: "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," but instead, EVERYTHING about the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, which will commence upon His "RETURN" there, that is, to the earth [Rev19--1Tim6:15 "which in His times He SHALL SHEW [openly manifest]'...". One of ONLY TWO times in all of the epistles where "King" is used, and both are "FUTURE"]).

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm asking you, "when" (and "what") was Seal #1? What was it, and when did it take place, in your view? (since I can't tell, from what you've said here)

I have no real concern for claiming to know the exact timing of the seals.

My concern is seeing a future command to build Jerusalem, and seeing the future "Man Of Sin" being revealed proclaiming to be Messiah God in Jerusalem, this starts the 3.5 year tribulation.

 

[Truth7t7]

I had supplied the parallels Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 being the same as the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], which passage shows to have a TIME-PERIOD that follows that "punish" before the second of the two "punish" words is carried out.

This is consistent with:

--Rev19 and Rev 20:11-15 being distinct judgments (with a spans of time separating them) ["to judge the LIVING/the QUICK and the DEAD"... but not in the same split-second moment of time, as the "chronology" (which is very detailed) in a number of passages spells out to us, as the progressive revelation unfolds for us IN SCRIPTURE (example: "no man knows [PERFECT indicative; not even Jesus in His earthly ministry]"... but which now He has disclosed in the LATER "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO...") ];

--"the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven" (following the specific "time period" of verse 25, which involves the "person of interest" in vv.20-24 who is parallel to Rev13:5-7,1 [the 'mouth' / person]);

--Revelation 19:15b saying "and He SHALL [future tense to this point in the chronology] shepherd/rule them [the nations--nations are ON THE EARTH] with a rod/sceptre of iron [righteousness and strength]"

--everything Jesus spoke about in the Gospels accounts (which, up until His Olivet Discourse and INCLUDING it, was not yet speaking ANYTHING re: "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," but instead, EVERYTHING about the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, which will commence upon His "RETURN" there, that is, to the earth [Rev19--1Tim6:15 "which in His times He SHALL SHEW [openly manifest]'...". One of ONLY TWO times in all of the epistles where "King" is used, and both are "FUTURE"]).

Your looking at a "Soul" that has no physical body, as this "Soul" died.

No further response is needed, we beat this one to death!

Revelation 20:4KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not

 

[Jimbone]

Actually the Resurrection/Rapture does pertain to salvation very definitely. So Ahwatukee is correct.

Now here is how that pertains to salvation. Salvation occurs in three phases: (1) justification, (2) sanctification, and (3) glorification (or perfection). The Resurrection/Rapture cannot be separated from the glorification and perfection of the saints, and that cannot be separated from the CULMINATION of salvation. Unfortunately, too many Christians are not taught this truth, therefore you have also kinds of false beliefs floating around.

The Bible is very clear that (1) the Resurrection/Rapture is one event which includes both the saints who passed on and the ones who are alive when Christ comes for His Bride, and (2) this event has absolutely nothing to do with the Tribulation, since the Tribulation is specifically for unbelieving Jews ("the time of Jacob's trouble").

So I need to believe a particular view of eschatology for salvation? Nope actually you are both VERY wrong. DEAD wrong. dangerously wrong and a bit arrogant to think you hold knowledge others need. I'm saved and believe nothing like you. So????????????