Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians
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Consider the following:
--the word "sickle / pruning hook" in Revelation 14:14,15,16,17,18 (2x), 19 --7x total in that chapter, is used only one other place:
Mark 4:26-29 -
The Seed Growing Secretly
26 And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is thus, as a man should cast the seed upon the earth, 27 and should sleep and rise night and day, and the seed should sprout and grow—he not knows how. 28 Of itself [automatē], the earth brings forth fruit—first a plant, then an ear, then full grain [G4621 - typcally referring to 'wheat'-- see its use in *Matt3:12, *13:25,29,30; *Lk3:7] in the ear. 29 And when the fruit offers itself, he sends the sickle immediately, for the harvest has come.”
[ * none of these passages are in the context of "our Rapture [in the air]"--the "My barn" is the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, following the tribulation period--WHEAT is "harvested" by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement)--I believe Scripture itself shows us that "the 144,000" are "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest (compare Rev14:4 with Lev23:17 "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"--this being the SECOND use of "firstfruit" in Lev23); but see a DISTINCT "harvest" altogether takes place by means of "tossing it into the air" (this one being PRIOR TO the other, see [note again Lev23 and its TWO DISTINCT "firstfruit" mentions])...]
See also where Rev14 refers back to Joel 3:13 and context:
12 Let the nations be roused
and advance to the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
for there I will sit down
to judge all the nations on every side.
13 Swing the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe.
Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full;
the wine vats overflow
because their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the Day of the LORD is near
[ ^ Compare Ezek7:7 - "Doom has come to you, O inhabitants of the land. The time has come; the day is near; there is panic on the mountains instead of shouts of joy."]
in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and moon will grow dark,
and the stars will no longer shine.
16 The LORD will roar from Zion
and raise His voice from Jerusalem; [Compare Romans 11:26-27]
heaven and earth will tremble.
But the LORD will be a refuge for His people,
a stronghold for the people of Israel.
[see also the word "thresh [H2251 'beat out']" in the Isaiah 27:12-13 passage I've been pointing out as parallel to Matt24:29-31 (context: NOT "our Rapture [in the air]" event
)]Did I ever adopt a particular camp?
Yes, Jesus' detail about "two women will be working on a handmill, and one will be taken away" is a thorn in the side of the post-trib camp. However, the pre-trib camp also has a thorn in their side: if I Thessalonians says the dead will be raised first--physically, at the Second Coming, and the dead walk on the earth--then how can this pre-trib Rapture of the living happen AFTER that? Pre-trib is pretty adamant that the living are Raptured first--not second. Unless you adopt a figurative standpoint that the dead are Raptured by...well...dying?
Yes, Jesus' detail about "two women will be working on a handmill, and one will be taken away" is a thorn in the side of the post-trib camp. However, the pre-trib camp also has a thorn in their side: if I Thessalonians says the dead will be raised first--physically, at the Second Coming, and the dead walk on the earth--then how can this pre-trib Rapture of the living happen AFTER that? Pre-trib is pretty adamant that the living are Raptured first--not second. Unless you adopt a figurative standpoint that the dead are Raptured by...well...dying?
Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
Plymouth Brethren was a cult, and John Nelson Darby was a cult leader.
Plymouth Brethren was a cult, and John Nelson Darby was a cult leader.
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[reposting #455]
PLEASE take a look at the link and read there:
[quoting post #455 again]
Also... read this verse (John 11:25) here:
https://biblehub.com/text/john/11-25.htm [,<---READ THIS VERSE HERE ]
This part is why Jesus said "I AM the Resurrection"...
but He went on to say "AND [I AM] the LIFE"
[end quoting that post]
PLEASE take a look at the link and read there:
[quoting post #455 again]
Also... read this verse (John 11:25) here:
https://biblehub.com/text/john/11-25.htm [,<---READ THIS VERSE HERE
]This part is why Jesus said "I AM the Resurrection"...
but He went on to say "AND [I AM] the LIFE"
[end quoting that post]
The Bible clearly speaks of a Resurrection many times, yet it also talks about believers not dying. How can you raise from the dead--without dying?? Seems like the way to resolve that contradiction is to see a way how both can be true at the same time.
MHO: Jesus spoke of being Born Again. So I believe that resolution is there.
I was quoting "Absolutely". No matter...
Obviously those two words are different. Because after all, how can the living be resurrected? The problem with timing still remains a serious problem. Paul goes out of his way to say the dead are resurrected before the living are raptured. You have to do some serious finnagling of the timeline and word-mincing to make that work.
Obviously those two words are different. Because after all, how can the living be resurrected? The problem with timing still remains a serious problem. Paul goes out of his way to say the dead are resurrected before the living are raptured. You have to do some serious finnagling of the timeline and word-mincing to make that work.
@acts5_29 ... may I ask, what are your thoughts on my Post #545 ? (note the EDIT in Post #546 also):
https://christianchat.com/threads/a...ime-among-some-christians.192730/post-4284495 - Post #545
I provide some further detail in that post. = )
I would go a step further and say Pre-trib rapture was spread and popularized in the United States by Cyrus Scofield. Some people here on this board may very likely be reading from a Scofield Bible now. And Scofield was absolutely a shady character. Certainly, someone who spent time in a Federal Penitentiary for FORGERY, of all people, is unfit to have a version of the Bible named after him. The Bible is very clear (or at least, non-Scofield versions...) that people who abandon and defraud their own family are worse than unbelievers.
So show or tell me how it was debunked. Because this is what is reported everywhere on internet.
and is this statement "debunked" too?
Pre-tribulation rapture theology was further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
and is this statement "debunked" too?
Pre-tribulation rapture theology was further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
Certainly, the 144,000 are the firstfruit, first-born, what have you. I am not sold that the barn is referring to the Millennium.
When God promises us that believers will be spared from the Tribulation, let me put it this way: the current Covid crisis. Is the Covid crisis worldwide? Yet, only 6 out of 7 continents have been impacted. How, then, can the Covid crisis be worldwide?
When God promises us that believers will be spared from the Tribulation, let me put it this way: the current Covid crisis. Is the Covid crisis worldwide? Yet, only 6 out of 7 continents have been impacted. How, then, can the Covid crisis be worldwide?
Yeah, and so was Calvin a pretty shady dude, but many people follow the ideas he promulgated (and KILLED people, over).
Anyway, that is why I prefer to stick with discussing what SCRIPTURE ITSELF has to say on the Subject (not that I don't sometimes also quote from Commentaries, if I think they will be helpful, mind you). People have a hard time STICKING WITH SCRIPTURE, and instead go off on tangents about "M MacDonald" said such and such, which she didn't even say... LOL.
But the idea that Darby INVENTED the pre-trib idea (or Margaret M) has been thoroughly DEBUNKED... and has nothing to do with the Subject, whatsoever.
(and KILLED people, over).Anyway, that is why I prefer to stick with discussing what SCRIPTURE ITSELF has to say on the Subject (not that I don't sometimes also quote from Commentaries, if I think they will be helpful, mind you). People have a hard time STICKING WITH SCRIPTURE, and instead go off on tangents about "M MacDonald" said such and such, which she didn't even say... LOL.
But the idea that Darby INVENTED the pre-trib idea (or Margaret M) has been thoroughly DEBUNKED... and has nothing to do with the Subject, whatsoever.
But the idea that Darby INVENTED the pre-trib idea (or Margaret M) has been thoroughly DEBUNKED... and has nothing to do with the Subject, whatsoever.
A perceived majority of Christians believing one thing does not necessarily make it any more likely to be true. And let's be honest: pop Christianity preaches the Left Behind series, while post-trib might have a few dollars thrown in the offering plate here and there.
[quoting an old post of mine]
[the two sentences by M.MacDonald which were later removed, demonstrating she believed the rapture would be POST-trib, not PRE-trib ]
[quoting from wikipedia]
"The rise in belief in the pre-tribulation rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year-old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald who was of the first to receive a spiritual baptism under a Pentecostal awakening in Scotland. In 1830, she supposedly had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861, but two important passages demonstrating a post-tribulation view were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the rapture. The two removed segments were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept".[83][84]
[...]
"References [...]
"83. ^ Hommel, Jason. "Margaret MacDonald's Vision" [ https://web.archive.org/web/20030115080400/http://www.bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm ] . Jason Hommel's Bible Prophecy Study on the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Grass Valley, California. Archived from the original on 15 January 2003. Retrieved 14 November 2016. Quotes the account in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861).
"84. ^ Wilkinson, Paul Richard (1 December 2008). "Appendix: Margaret McDonald's Utterances". For Zion's Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby. Wipf and Stock Publishers. pp. 262–263. ISBN 1556358075. A more complete version, combining the text in Norton's Memoirs and that in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), all cited secondary from Macpherson, The Incredible Coverup."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
[end quoting wikipedia; bold and underline mine; inserted the link which didn't transfer from the article automatically, but you can find them there in the wiki article itself]
____________
[... I hope ppl only go to that link to see the two sentences which apparently were removed at a later time, but which show her to have described "the Church" going through the tribulation period, not being removed prior to it as the "pre-trib" doctrine shows]
[end quoting that old post]
_____
Darby did not draw from Margaret M., EITHER... LOL
[the two sentences by M.MacDonald which were later removed, demonstrating she believed the rapture would be POST-trib, not PRE-trib
][quoting from wikipedia]
"The rise in belief in the pre-tribulation rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year-old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald who was of the first to receive a spiritual baptism under a Pentecostal awakening in Scotland. In 1830, she supposedly had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861, but two important passages demonstrating a post-tribulation view were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the rapture. The two removed segments were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept".[83][84]
[...]
"References [...]
"83. ^ Hommel, Jason. "Margaret MacDonald's Vision" [ https://web.archive.org/web/20030115080400/http://www.bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm ] . Jason Hommel's Bible Prophecy Study on the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Grass Valley, California. Archived from the original on 15 January 2003. Retrieved 14 November 2016. Quotes the account in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861).
"84. ^ Wilkinson, Paul Richard (1 December 2008). "Appendix: Margaret McDonald's Utterances". For Zion's Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby. Wipf and Stock Publishers. pp. 262–263. ISBN 1556358075. A more complete version, combining the text in Norton's Memoirs and that in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), all cited secondary from Macpherson, The Incredible Coverup."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
[end quoting wikipedia; bold and underline mine; inserted the link which didn't transfer from the article automatically, but you can find them there in the wiki article itself]
____________
[... I hope ppl only go to that link to see the two sentences which apparently were removed at a later time, but which show her to have described "the Church" going through the tribulation period, not being removed prior to it as the "pre-trib" doctrine shows]
[end quoting that old post]
_____
Darby did not draw from Margaret M., EITHER... LOL
Almost everything in your post here was pointing to "he said, she said..."
I'm always endeavoring to bring us back to EXAMINING THE SCRIPTURES as to what IT SAYS... but when I do that, I rarely see anything by way of response (evidencing a REAL DIGGING IN, to SEE IF THESE THINGS BE SO), but rather, a kind of "fluffing off" by saying "I don't think it means that" but with no real Scriptural REASON for saying so, being provided in response.
Instead, an immediate turning to "he said, she said, they say, they do this and that..."! [doing the VERY THING you've said NOT TO DO] WHO CARES "what they [/people] say"?? What IS SCRIPTURE SAYING in the Subject? I've presented some of that in this thread... Show me IN SCRIPTURE where any of what I've presented is countered BY SCRIPTURE, please!!
I'm always endeavoring to bring us back to EXAMINING THE SCRIPTURES as to what IT SAYS... but when I do that, I rarely see anything by way of response (evidencing a REAL DIGGING IN, to SEE IF THESE THINGS BE SO), but rather, a kind of "fluffing off" by saying "I don't think it means that" but with no real Scriptural REASON for saying so, being provided in response.
Instead, an immediate turning to "he said, she said, they say, they do this and that..."! [doing the VERY THING you've said NOT TO DO] WHO CARES "what they [/people] say"?? What IS SCRIPTURE SAYING in the Subject? I've presented some of that in this thread... Show me IN SCRIPTURE where any of what I've presented is countered BY SCRIPTURE, please!!