Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[TheDivineWatermark]

None of what you have said here explains why Paul talks about the dead in Christ being raised from the dead when Jesus said believers NEVER DIE.

[reposting #455]


PLEASE take a look at the link and read there:

[quoting post #455 again]


Also... read this verse (John 11:25) here:

https://biblehub.com/text/john/11-25.htm [,<---READ THIS VERSE HERE ]

This part is why Jesus said "I AM the Resurrection"...




but He went on to say "AND [I AM] the LIFE"

[end quoting that post]

 

[KJV1611]

There were Human Giants seen throughout the bible with bed 9 cubits/12.5 feet long, 4 cubits/6 feet wide, beds for large "Human Beings"

Deuteronomy 3:11KJV
11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.

Yes there were giants in those days. And they were the result of the sons of God raping the daughters of men.

Gen_6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

 

[KJV1611]

I believe you are taking this phrase (in the bold ^ ) as lifted from its context, and misapplying it.

The phrase "the body of this death" in Romans 7:24 is not speaking of our physical bodies.

"A wretched man I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?" - Romans 7:24

I totally disagree, but I'm not going to get into that because this is outside of our discussion.

 

[KJV1611]

[reposting #455]


PLEASE take a look at the link and read there:

[quoting post #455 again]


Also... read this verse (John 11:25) here:

https://biblehub.com/text/john/11-25.htm [,<---READ THIS VERSE HERE ]

This part is why Jesus said "I AM the Resurrection"...




but He went on to say "AND [I AM] the LIFE"

[end quoting that post]

386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Are you trying to get me to understand what resurrection means? I've got some things to do this morning, I'll be back later. In the meantime, can you explain how there can be the "dead in Christ" when Christ said a believer never dies. I'm not trying to smart or trick you or anything like that, I truly want to know how you see this.

 

[cv5]

TDW is a smart guy no doubt, but he never could explain how Paul talks about the DEAD IN CHRIST will rise in the future when Jesus said that Christians don't die, nor will they ever die.

So in simplest terms, there has not been a person that has DIED IN CHRIST since the resurrection of Christ and the Old Testament saints.

Those verses that you and TDW and all of the rest of the rapture heresy believers are twisting into your great escape are actually explaining how believers that NEVER DIE are CAUGHT UP or SNATCHED UP or TRANSLATED from their bodies just prior to that body dying.

My question is whether Jesus was wrong, or Paul was wrong or are the rapture heresy believers wrong?

"My question is whether Jesus was wrong, or Paul was wrong or are the rapture heresy believers wrong?"
The obvious answer is that YOU are wrong. Paul is talking about their dead bodies, their corpses.
Though they may be dust, their dead bodies shall rise and be glorified. The spirits of the Saints who have died are immediately ushered into the presence of the Lord ("dead IN CHRIST"), but evidently there needs to be another transformational phase to a glorified body fit for heaven and earth. Which fits the Scripture perfectly as it stays very clearly that we will be eventually glorified. What I think you are missing is the fact of the Bible is perfectly clear that our physical body is reclaimed and reconstituted and reused. It is not discarded forever.

Before I forget I must mention that Jesus was resurrected to a glorified body, Which was physical but had astounding capabilities. That is exactly how the rest of us will be resurrected when the rapture occurs. A physical body similar to Jesus after His resurrection.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In the meantime, can you explain how there can be the "dead in Christ" when Christ said a believer never dies.

Your take on it doesn't quite seem to jive with the following passages... take a look at these few (hopefully sometime read them in context, is my suggestion):

Acts 9:37 V-ANA [re: "a certain disciple, Tabitha [/Dorcas]"]
GRK: ἀσθενήσασαν αὐτὴν ἀποθανεῖν λούσαντες δὲ
NAS: that she fell sick and died; and when they had washed
KJV: that she was sick, and died: whom when
INT: [that] having become sick she died having washed [her] moreover


Romans 14:8 V-PSA-1P
GRK: ἐάν τε ἀποθνήσκωμεν τῷ κυρίῳ
NAS: or if we die, we die for the Lord;
KJV: and whether we die, we die
INT: if also we should die to the Lord


Romans 14:8 V-PIA-1P
GRK: τῷ κυρίῳ ἀποθνήσκομεν ἐάν τε
NAS: we die, we die for the Lord;
KJV: we die, we die unto the Lord:
INT: to the Lord we die if both


Romans 14:8 V-PSA-1P
GRK: ἐάν τε ἀποθνήσκωμεν τοῦ κυρίου
NAS: we live or die, we are the Lord's.
KJV: therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
INT: if also we should die the Lord's


Philippians 1:21 V-ANA
GRK: καὶ τὸ ἀποθανεῖν κέρδος
NAS: is Christ and to die is gain.
KJV: [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.
INT: and to die gain


Revelation 14:13 V-PPA-NMP
GRK: ἐν κυρίῳ ἀποθνήσκοντες ἀπ' ἄρτι
NAS: are the dead who die in the Lord
KJV: [are] the dead which die in the Lord
INT: in [the] Lord die from presently

I'm not trying to smart or trick you or anything like that, I truly want to know how you see this.

I gotta close down too, and head off to other things that will occupy me for awhile.

Have a good day!

...we can talk more later...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

P.S.

Are you trying to get me to understand what resurrection means?

No that wasn't the reason I supplied that link (to John 11:25)...

I was trying to draw your attention to the last section of the verse, the part which says (esp. in the bold and underline),

[...]
3588 [e] ὁ
ho the [one] Art-NMS


4100 [e] πιστεύων
pisteuōn believing V-PPA-NMS


1519 [e] εἰς
eis in Prep


1473 [e] ἐμὲ
eme Me, PPro-A1S


2579 [e] κἂν
kan even if Adv


599 [e] ἀποθάνῃ
apothanē he should die, V-ASA-3S


2198 [e] ζήσεται,
zēsetai he will live; V-FIM-3S

I'm not trying to smart or trick you or anything like that, I truly want to know how you see this.

Have a great day! = )

 

[cv5]

I don't think it would make a difference if it was. What I presented over several thread pages is post tribulation according to the Bible, not my own homecooked theology, unlike pretribulationism that only appeared on the scene as of the 1800s.

This is one of those points in the Bible where there isn't a sentence that says "The rapture is pretribulation." or "The rapture is posttribulation." or the timing of it wouldn't be disputed.

There are people who can probably explain it better than myself. We should seek out the truth regardless of denominational loyalties. I have studied pretribulationism and I would have believed in it if I thought it made sense.

There is not one sentence it says God is a Trinity either. And that goes the same for many other accepted doctrines as well. But it is perfectly clear to me that the pre-tribulation rapture is likewise boilerplate Biblical doctrine. There are tons of Scriptures that support it. More than enough to make it beyond disputing.

 

[cv5]

"My question is whether Jesus was wrong, or Paul was wrong or are the rapture heresy believers wrong?"
The obvious answer is that YOU are wrong. Paul is talking about their dead bodies, their corpses.
Though they may be dust, their dead bodies shall rise and be glorified. The spirits of the Saints who have died are immediately ushered into the presence of the Lord ("dead IN CHRIST"), but evidently there needs to be another transformational phase to a glorified body fit for heaven and earth. Which fits the Scripture perfectly as it stays very clearly that we will be eventually glorified. What I think you are missing is the fact of the Bible is perfectly clear that our physical body is reclaimed and reconstituted and reused. It is not discarded forever.

Before I forget I must mention that Jesus was resurrected to a glorified body, Which was physical but had astounding capabilities. That is exactly how the rest of us will be resurrected when the rapture occurs. A physical body similar to Jesus after His resurrection.

Oh and one more point. Evidently Jesus Himself was indeed a disembodied spirit for a short time,
until He was resurrected as a glorified physical body.

 

[cv5]

Phil 3:20, 21

But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

 

[cv5]

Imminency. The next expectation.
Eagerly waiting for the great tribulation? I think not.

https://biblehub.com/philippians/3-20.htm
https://biblehub.com/titus/2-13.htm
https://biblehub.com/hebrews/9-28.htm
https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/1-10.htm
https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-6.htm
https://biblehub.com/revelation/3-3.htm

 

[Absolutely]

We are discussing future events and for you or me or anyone to believe we know exactly when and how the events will come to be is ridiculous. You are convinced you are correct as we all do.

We disagree. We all study and pray and yet we still disagree.
Now to attack one and make very damning remarks about that person is just stupid.
That is pride. Scriptures warns us about pride.

It is sad that we can not have a friendly discussion and leave as friends and not enemies.

Amen.
We can disagree and have a excellent spirit about us at the same time.
But the humanness gets in the way sometimes.
I am guilty of that big time.

 

[Absolutely]

The saints in the 5th seal aren't raised yet, told to wait a little longer. To me the only logical conclusion is that they will be raised at the 2nd coming of Christ which occurs at the same time as the rapture. That's the post-trib beliefe and what I think is sound. There aren't two phases to Christ coming back, that was my point.

Rev 14
Jesus returns and is pictured on a cloud. He gathers a group DURING THE GT.
JESUS also returns AFTER the gt.

The "he only returns once" is thoughouly debunked by rev 14

We know for a fact there are 3 returns.
It is impossible to make it one return.

 

[Absolutely]

I


1 Thessalonians 4:17 goes out of his way to expressly state that the living are raptured after the dead. For the dead to be resurrected--to physically walk on the earth again--prior to the living being snatched, does not seem to line up with this in-the-twinkling-of-an-eye Left Behind event of pre-trib. Or of the "two will be in a field, one will be taken away" of the Olivet Discourse.

Huh?
It aligns perfectly.
You just made a great pretrib rapture point.

 

[Absolutely]

Imminency. The next expectation.
Eagerly waiting for the great tribulation? I think not.

https://biblehub.com/philippians/3-20.htm
https://biblehub.com/titus/2-13.htm
https://biblehub.com/hebrews/9-28.htm
https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/1-10.htm
https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-6.htm
https://biblehub.com/revelation/3-3.htm

Yes
The 10 virgins were waiting for Jesus.
Positioned to meet him.

Postrib rapture adherents have no use for waiting for Jesus.
In fact they look for the other guy to come first on a white horse.
Ironically....even the foolish virgins knew enough that it was wise to wait....but ended up facing the other guy due to unworthiness.

"But pray that you may be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the world...."

Are any worthy?

It ain't ENTIRELY a "saved"issue.
IT IS SAVED AND WORTHY.

The oil was what determined worthy

 

[Absolutely]

A very weak case indeed. Since the Tribulation corresponds to the reign of the Antichrist, there will be no one to rapture at the end of the Tribulation, since everyone will be killed. No living saints = no Rapture. I rest my case.

This is one point amongst many that make anything but pretrib impossible.

Other adherents have a tough time ahead with trying to defend an impossibility

 

[Absolutely]

According to pre-trib belief, the resurrection and rapture occur together. The verse you just quoted proves that the deceased are resurrected and the living are raptured. Post-trib also believe this, the main point of dispute is pre or post tribulation. Other verses say this occurs on the last day. We have already covered that the second return of Christ is on the last day, after the tribulation. We have also concluded that Christ's return isn't a two phase process. It happens once. The only interpretation consistent with scripture is a post-trib rapture and resurrection. I rest my case.

Rev 14

Read it.

You are 100% hands down wrong
100%

 

[Absolutely]

The pre-trib belief usually cites 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 to be interpreted as the rapture that resurrects deceased saints first and then those who are still alive second.

...because it says that

 

[Absolutely]

The saints in the 5th seal aren't raised yet, told to wait a little longer. To me the only logical conclusion is that they will be raised at the 2nd coming of Christ which occurs at the same time as the rapture. That's the post-trib beliefe and what I think is sound. There aren't two phases to Christ coming back, that was my point.

...and yet just a few verses later the rest of the martyrs are in heaven as an innumerable number that were murdered DURING THE GT.

AND ARE NOW IN HEAVEN

But wait....now they are not under the altar,but in the general population.

Pretrib rapture....100% pretrib rapture.

Pretrib aligns perfectly.

Ironically the innumerable number also testifies against a postrib rapture.

You have to step back and look at 2 things
Purpose,and the bride.

Those 2 things belong solely to pretrib position.

You can listen to all the postrib doctrine teachers.

Those 2 points are totally missing.
Think about it. Postrib rapture has those points missing .

Those 2 points are the starting point.
How can anyone get a clear picture by leaving out the backbone of end times?????

You can't.

 

[Absolutely]

Post-trib didn't get debunked. I just showed you what the Bible says about it. I agree the Bible should be understood it's entirety. If something doesn't mesh together with scripture then it can only be concluded we aren't understanding something completely.

What you showed me does not undo what Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 says. There is no reference to a pre-trib gathering of the elect of any sort. There is a gathering at the 2nd coming of Christ though and that's after the great tribulation.

I'm only showing you what the Bible says. You decide what you want to believe.

...and what ,pray tell do you do with "lot" and "before the flood"?

Ignore it?