The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

cv5 · May 31, 2020

May I suggest that you back up your claims with Scripture? Thus far we've seen none of that from you. Rather, a bunch of opiniated bloviating and errant sophistry.

Absolutely · May 31, 2020

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cv5 · May 31, 2020

DorothyMae said:

Actually that is exactly what God is waiting for. Clearly. The main component of the Great Tribulation is the final and ultimate redeeming of Israel, where Jesus Messiah shows his mighty power in judgement, and mighty power in salvation, and destroys the armies of the enemy and is glorified in his people Israel. Subsequently the Abrahamic covenant and Davidic covenant are fulfilled.

Absolutely · May 31, 2020

1 | Galatians | 49 |
2 | James | 49 |
3 | 1 Thessalonians | 50 - 51 |
4 | 2 Thessalonians | 50 - 51 |
5 | 1 Corinthians | 54 |
6 | 2 Corinthians | 55 |
7 | Romans | 55 |
8 | Mark | 57 - 59 |
9 | Luke | 60 |
10 | Ephesians | 60 |
11 | Colossians | 60 |
12 | Philemon | 60 |
13 | Acts | 61 |
14 | Philippians | 61 |
15 | 1 Timothy | 62 |
16 | Titus | 62 |
17 | 2 Timothy | 63 |
18 | 1 Peter | 63 |
19 | 2 Peter | 63 - 64 |
20 | Matthew | 60's |
21 | Hebrews | 60's |
22 | Jude | 60's or 70's |
23 | John | Late 80's |
24 | 1 John | late 80's - early 90's |
25 | 2 John | late 80's - early 90's |
26 | 3 John | late 80's - early 90's |
27 | Revelation | late 80's - early 90's

Absolutely · May 31, 2020

https://www.alecsatin.com/whats-the-chronological-order-of-the-new-testament-books/

DorothyMae · May 31, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

My position is that, one of the "purposes" of "our Rapture," is that, it is a primary IMPETUS which turns Israel to their Messiah.

During the tribulation period (which follows "our Rapture"), those of Israel (who will have come to faith early in the trib years [increasing throughout the trib]) will be the ones doing the "INVITING" to the [earthly] MK age which follows that (aka "the wedding feast/supper") with the MESSAGE of Matt24:14[26:13] (the results being shown in Rev7:9-17, for one example, and Matt25:31-34 and context being another, as well as some of the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" contexts), and they [meaning, the believing remnant of Israel] are the ones being spoken of in Matt25:40,45 "the least of these My brethren" whom "the nations [/Gentiles]" will either "BLESS [/aid]" (and themselves be called "ye BLESSED" by our Lord, upon His "return") or will NOT bless[/aid] (who will be the ones our Lord calls "ye CURSED"--Matt25), during that time period of great persecution against them (Matt24:9b, etc) [that is, during the 7 specific limited (future) yrs leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth; whereas "the Church which is His body" has experienced "tribulations and persecutions" on and off throughout its entire (near-)2000-yrs since its existence (2Th1:4 and other passages), Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]

I believe that DURING those 7 specific limited (future) years leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth (FOR the MK age), the specific "message" of Matt24:14[26:13] and Matt22:8-14 will be "going out" (pertaining to the INVITATION TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka the earthly MK age / "the age [singular] to come"]; I'm pretty sure this is also when the following passage applies:

--"17[1] And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!'"
--"[2] And the one hearing, let him say, 'Come!'"
--"[3] And the one thirsting let him come;"
--"the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life."

This is where I believe Rom11:25 tells us about the "blindness [/hardening]... UNTIL"

(Romans 11:25[15]-29, with v.15 being parallel with a number of other passages I've listed before that LIKEN Israel's coming up out of the graveyard of nations [where scattered], LIKEN IT UNTO "a resurrection" [via God's power]--Daniel 12:1-4,10; Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; etc). I do not consider that to look "HOSTILE" but will be rather "desirable" (desired on their part, even, see).

Again, I see the event of "our Rapture" as being an IMPETUS that aids in the opening of their eyes, so to speak, that Jesus IS INDEED their Messiah (and then they fulfill their specific role IN/DURING the trib yrs, as those having come to faith within/during the trib yrs, as the ones DOING the INVITING TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [i.e. the earthly MK age]"--yes there will be "hostility against them" by the AC and those on that side [against Christ], but the purpose of the trib yrs is to bring Israel into the New Covenant and usher them into the earthly MK age [with their "guests [/the Gentiles who AID/BLESS them/the SHEEP of Matt25:31-34's context, etc etc]").

Presently, our ('the Church which is His body') instructions include, that "as often as ye do it, YE DO PROCLAIM the Lord's DEATH till He come" [till He come for us in the Rapture event], at which time we will BE CORPORATELY PROCLAIMING something ELSE... and this COPRPORATE MASSIVE *EVENT* will be used by God as a major IMPETUS that turns Israel to their Messiah. And that is a POSITIVE THING.

If they weren’t convinced by the life and miracles of Jesus before their eyes, no rapture will convince them. They’ll say it’s a government extermination plot or aliens. To think otherwise is wishful thinking.

In general I wish you guys would think about the question posed and answer it instead of merely repeating your doctrine. I’m very familiar with the position. What I don’t see is answers to the obvious problems. Repeating the doctrine verbatium doesn’t answer the problems.

DorothyMae · May 31, 2020

Absolutely said:

It was future for him. For us it’s past. I believe you’re skipping Romans 11:8 ....So too AT THIS PRESENT TIME there is a remnant.... What time? Paul’s time. Future for him and past for us.

cv5 · May 31, 2020

crossnote said:

I have yet to find in the historical of record how God destroyed the armies surrounding Jerusalem in 70 A.D.!

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+12&version=NKJV

7 “The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of theLord before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+19&version=NKJV

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [h]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, [i]free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birdswere filled with their flesh.

cv5 · May 31, 2020

DorothyMae said:

Great. But we are not familiar with your position because you have not as of yet posted even one single solitary's Bible verse! For the obvious reason those that support your thesis do not exist!

TheDivineWatermark · May 31, 2020

DorothyMae said:

May I ask, what "question posed" are you referring to... do you mean in this post of yours ^ here, or another?

As to the bolded ^ issue (in your post), I've made lots of posts about how 2Th1&2 IS INDEED showing the TWO CONTRASTING [OPPOSITE] "beliefs" people WILL COME TO EMBRACE *following* [the event of] "our Rapture"/"THE Departure [of us in the Rapture]," and (to boil it down--that post I made), I'd said (of that passage, chpts 1&2) that, in Scripture, wherever "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in close proximity/same CONTEXTS, they are speaking of the SAME TIME PERIOD. So here in 2Th1&2, Paul also uses BOTH of these phrases (referring to the SAME *future* TIME PERIOD [following "our Rapture"]), and he is showing those TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" those remaining on the earth [IN the trib] will COME TO BELIEVE/EMBRACE:
either [and at EITHER END of this bracketed section/context]
1) 2Th2:10-12 ('that they should believe the FALSE/the pseudei' [i.e. believe the DECEPTION surrounding the man of sin and all he will DO during that spans of time (the "DARK/IN THE NIGHT" aspect of the DOTL), and the related "strong delusion"]); or
2) [others who find themselves in that TIME PERIOD (following our Rapture) will come to believe-->] 2Th1:10b INSTEAD ("[speaking from an end-of-trib-point-of-view]...among all those having believed because 'the testimony of us to you' was believed IN THAT DAY" [speaking of in THAT day [aka 'the DOTL' TIME-PERIOD which includes JUDGMENTs (i.e the trib)], not THIS one (presently)])

..so, yes, to address your bolded statement, ppl will come to one of TWO [OPPOSITE] "beliefs" (and also concerning "WHAT JUST HAPPENED" [from their perspective, finding themselves IN the trib yrs following "our Rapture"]); God will know who He will [justly] "send strong delusion THAT they should believe the lie/the false/the pseudei" (and I believe that will be to those who specifically had previously hardened their hearts [kinda like Pharaoh], but this isn't the case with ALL who will be remaining on the earth following "our Rapture"... a great many will come to faith within that time period (I supplied passages pointing those out).

Hope this helps you see my perspective... and hopefully comes close to addressing whatever "question" it was you had intended, per your post above (at top ^ ). IOW, I do believe Paul addresses this very thing (if this is what you were even referring to).

[recall how "many Jews" came to believe in Him after He had raised Lazarus from the dead, per John 12:11... but others were instigated to the opposite extreme, at that point, [the very thing] leading to Jesus' arrest, trials, death on the Cross]

Nehemiah6 · May 31, 2020

cv5 said:

Messiah being "cut off" and "not for himself" can only refer to the Crucifixion. He was certainly not cut off on the day of His triumphal entry. Quite the opposite. He was hailed as Messiah by the crowds.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off*, but not for himself... (Daniel 9:26)

*יִכָּרֵ֥ת (yik-kā-rêṯ) = shall be cut off

*Strong's Concordance
karath: to cut off, cut down
Original Word: כָּרַת
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: karath
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-rath')
Definition: to cut off, cut down

Christ's life was cut off and He was cut down when He was crucified. Which was on Nisan 14 in the year 30 AD, when He became "Christ our Passover".

Nehemiah6 · May 31, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

I did not say that all Jews will be saved. As I noted earlier in this thread, God will bring all the Jews from around the world to the land of Israel after the Second Coming of Christ. But only one-third of those will be the believing remnant of Israel. At the same time, this third will have "all Israel" within it, meaning that ALL TWELVE TRIBES will be found within the believing remnant of Israel. See Ezekiel 48.

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech 13:8,9)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1) [Note: this is a reference to those found written in the Book of Life]

cv5 · May 31, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

Okay....I understand your point. You are looking at verse 26. However the way I see it is that verse 25 which precedes verse 26 is the relevant point in time, because of the term "until". The term "until" terminates the time span of the prophecy. Verse 26 says that "after" the 69 weeks the Messiah will be cut off. In other words after the 69 weeks and the Presentation of the Messiah. Furthermore the only time that Jesus actually officially presented himself as Messiah "the Prince" was undoubtedly the triumphal entry. Clearly.

"Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress."

KJV1611 · May 31, 2020

SoulWeaver said:

This one puzzles me too. If you consider that the dead in Christ rose with Christ and believers after Christ’s resurrection do not die, then it could be that these verse are talking about the believer passing from this life to the next.

cv5 · May 31, 2020

KJV1611 said:

Why is it that "you people" are "puzzled" and confused, however the people actually know what they are talking about and can back it up with infallible Scripture absolutely understand perfectly how these verses work?

Why indeed? Something that should have you very very worried.

KJV1611 · May 31, 2020

cv5 said:

Do you know how to debate? What’s your counter argument to what I said? Where is your proof that the dead in Christ haven’t already risen. Where is your proof that believers in Christ never die?

Nehemiah6 · May 31, 2020

KJV1611 said:

The proof is found in Hebrew 12:22-24, which lists all the occupants of the New Jerusalem in Heaven. In fact the OT saints are called "the spirits of just men made perfect". The souls and spirits of all the saints are in Heaven, but the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church has not happened as yet.

At the Resurrection/Rapture Christ will bring -- from Heaven -- the souls and spirits of those who died in Christ (metaphorically who "sleep" in Christ) and join them to their resurrected and glorified immortal bodies. Seen 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

KJV1611 · May 31, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

All of the Old Testament saints were in Christ, waiting for Christ to come and pay for their redemption. Christ paid that price at the cross. When Christ rose from the dead, they rose with him. When he ascended they ascended.

The dead in Christ have already risen. There are no longer people that are “asleep in Christ” or “dead in Christ”. Believers DO NOT DIE. Believers move from this existence into the next. I assume that Jesus said this because we go directly to be with Him when we die, unlike the Old Testament saints that had to go to Abraham’s bosom until Christ redeemed them.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

DorothyMae · May 31, 2020

Absolutely said:

1 | Galatians | 49 |
2 | James | 49 |
3 | 1 Thessalonians | 50 - 51 |
4 | 2 Thessalonians | 50 - 51 |
5 | 1 Corinthians | 54 |
6 | 2 Corinthians | 55 |
7 | Romans | 55 |
8 | Mark | 57 - 59 |
9 | Luke | 60 |
10 | Ephesians | 60 |
11 | Colossians | 60 |
12 | Philemon | 60 |
13 | Acts | 61 |
14 | Philippians | 61 |
15 | 1 Timothy | 62 |
16 | Titus | 62 |
17 | 2 Timothy | 63 |
18 | 1 Peter | 63 |
19 | 2 Peter | 63 - 64 |
20 | Matthew | 60's |
21 | Hebrews | 60's |
22 | Jude | 60's or 70's |
23 | John | Late 80's |
24 | 1 John | late 80's - early 90's |
25 | 2 John | late 80's - early 90's |
26 | 3 John | late 80's - early 90's |
27 | Revelation | late 80's - early 90's

The last bit is unlikely as John could barely walk in his 90s and barely speak. It is wishful thinking with no evidence. Also, this eloquent writer wrote nothing over 50 years!!!! Highly doubtful.

TheDivineWatermark · May 31, 2020

DorothyMae said:

Personally, I don't believe "John" was the writer of [what we call] the Gospel of John and 3 epistles.

Scripture itself does not NAME the writer of these, and I believe there's internal evidence to support such... but don't want to get into that here (I am aware of the arguments, though). "Tradition" says it was "John," but Scripture itself does not NAME him as the writer (it does name him as the writer of Revelation, however).

Not sure if that's what you meant by "over 50 yrs". Do you mean that being 90 yrs old would be "too old" to write? or just "too old" to receive what he was "SHOWN" and given to write (and in the particular manner that he was)? Or were you speaking of a "spans" of time? (I'm unsure of your meaning, my apologies.)

The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

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