The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[TheDivineWatermark]

The measure of whether something happened or not is not that "we all know it." There are those who refuse the truth and do not know it then. There are those who are ignore, sometimes unwillingly or sometimes willingly. Jesus can speak of a future event that no one knows but once it is past, it can be known by those who seek the truth and have some means to find it out. Again, the measure of whether an event occured is not that we are all aware of it.

Something those who think the whole of Revelation is in the future do not think about is that when what they think will happen in ISrael happens, there is no assurance that it will be covered by the 6 o'clock news with live feed. IOW, if what is happening in the streets of Jerusalem are not known around the world today, when it is peaceful, certainly in a time when armies are surrounding it will not be a time when it will be known then.

For starters, I've made posts on the TIMING issues (re: Rev), how that 1:1 says, "...TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3] things which must come to pass [<--COMPARE this phrase with 1:19c and 4:1 re: the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." (NOT things which would transpire over the course of some near-2000 years [that is what "the things which ARE" spoke in reference to, BY CONTRAST], but what must come to pass "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [i.e. the future 7-yr trib yrs, from SEAL #1 (parallel the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' [a 'certain one' bringing DECEPTION']") to the END of the trib Rev19 Christ's "RETURN" to the earth, for the Rev19:15b thing "He SHALL [future tense] SHEPHERD them [the nations (i.e. "on the earth")] with a rod [sceptre] of iron [righteousness and strength]"].) So that's PART of my reasoning for its "FUTURE" setting (along with what I'd just put in my Post #915 about Rev5:9 and 5:4; and related issues in 2Th2).


Secondly, the text says, "they which be in Judaea" are the ones that will be supposed to "SEE-[then-]FLEE"--and recall, in the 70ad events the "SEE-then-FLEE" had to do with "[when...] Jerusalem compassed with armies," but in the *far-future* "SEE-then-FLEE," it is something "standing in the holy place" [see below], but still, it is those "which be in Judaea" who are the ones being instructed to "FLEE" when they "SEE" it (not the entirety of the "world"/those all over the world--I believe this corresponds to "the woman" in Rev12 [mentioned below]). So that's two issues, TIMING and LOCATION (and the "WHO" of it), thus far...


Next, I will quote from an old post...

[quoting an old post on the "[BE] SET UP [H5414]" of Daniel 12:11]

Here's something I posted back in ___, when discussing with ___... Note especially the parts about the "abomination [SINGULAR]" that both Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 12:11 use (connecting these in particular) and the word for "set up" in Dan12:11--I believe this is important to note:

[quoting that post from back then (pretty sure my highlighting won't transfer here)]

Here's my thinking on that.

I think I've mentioned a cpl times the usage of the "abomination [singular]" that Jesus refers to (where He said in Matt24:15 "When ye therefore see the abomination [singular] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place..."), that this points back to its usage in the singular also in Daniel, that being Daniel 12:11 "the abomination [singular] which maketh desolate SET UP [H5414]..."; so it is this "set up [H5414]" word that I think may help us when looking into [...<snip>...]

--"set up" - H5414 - "weletet/nathan" - [meaning] "give, put, set [established, permit, executes]"

[...<snip>...]

"and the abomination [singular (like Matt24:15)] that maketh desolate set up [H5414]..."

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12-11.htm [then hover your cursor over the number 5414, here at link, to see the pop-up extended definition and usages (EDIT: quoted below)]

--"H5414 - set up - nathan - [in Dan12:11] -

נתן nathan {naw-than'} a primitive root; TWOT - 1443; v AV - give 1078, put 191, deliver 174, made 107, set 99, up 26, lay 22, grant 21, suffer 18, yield 15, bring 15, cause 13, utter 12, laid 11, send 11, recompense 11, appoint 10, shew 7, misc 167; 2008 1) to give, put, set 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to give, bestow, grant, permit, ascribe, employ, devote, consecrate, dedicate, pay wages, sell, exchange, lend, commit, entrust, give over, deliver up, yield produce, occasion, produce, requite to, report, mention, utter, stretch out, extend 1a2) to put, set, put on, put upon, set, appoint, assign, designate 1a3) to make, constitute 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to be given, be bestowed, be provided, be entrusted to, be granted to, be permitted, be issued, be published, be uttered, be assigned 1b2) to be set, be put, be made, be inflicted 1c) (Hophal) 1c1) to be given, be bestowed, be given up, be delivered up 1c2) to be put upon"

[and]

Allow me to just insert (what I've said in the past), I do believe the "flee" in Matt24:16 correlates with the "fled/fly" of Rev12:6,14 (with 1260 days remaining until His Second Coming to the earth FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom)… so there's that, to consider also. [i.e. the "SEE-then-FLEE" issues, of the Olivet Discourse I've mentioned before (being TWO WHOLLY DISTINCT events at entirely DISTINCT time-slots)]

[i.e. the duration of time in both passages (meaning, Dan12:11/Matt24:15 and Rev12:6,14) ENDS at the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (not "our Rapture") and the resurrection of OT saints (per Dan12:13's wording speaking of "at the END of the days [the "days" referred to in THAT context (vv.6-7,1)]") FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom--
[...<snip>...]

[and]

See also Matthew 24:15's "standing [G2476 - histemi]" :

--"standing [G2476 - hestos/histemi]" … "Usage: trans: (a) I make to stand, place, set up, establish, appoint; mid: I place myself, stand, (b) I set in balance, weigh; intrans: (c) I stand, stand by, stand still; met: I stand ready, stand firm, am steadfast." [source: Bible Hub; G2476 in Matthew 24:15 is a "transitive verb" as shown defined in the bolded portion above]

[end quoting that portion, with a clarifying inserted bracketed section for this post]
____________

I think in another post I'd also brought in the thoughts expressed in the wording of Rev13:2b (which "time-frame" is generally at the SAME point as both, or rather, all three of these passages already mentioned ^ in this post [as well as the same point in time, generally speaking, as that of Rev12:12 / Rev9:1--the MID-trib point, aka the starting point of the SECOND half of the trib yrs--which is at the same time as the 2Th2:4 "sitteth in the temple of God" takes place, which word [G2523] I'd also posted about in another post, somewhere O.O ... well, here's a condensed version of THAT: "[G2523] Definition: to make to sit down, to sit down Usage: (a) trans: I make to sit; I set, appoint, (b) [...]" (and) "[this would be similar to the verse which states, "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves [G2523 - (transitive)] in Moses' seat" Matt23:2 (meaning, "to establish, to set, to appoint" and in other contexts is used like "to confer the kingdom," and "to appoint one to act as judge"]").

Again, my apologies for a "choppy" post (taken mostly from a post I'd made in the context of a DIFFERENT convo--may the readers take note of that fact = ) )

[end quoting those posts]


____________

So, as for the matter of it being TELEVISED or NOT, first off, I'm not certain it matters whether it is or not; secondly, this particular point in the chronology will take place MID-way through the trib, whereas a PRIMARY IMPETUS (I posted about), "our Rapture," will have taken place way back even prior to SEAL #1 which SEAL "kicks off" the trib yrs, so ALREADY there has been a MASSIVE piece of EVIDENCE provided to them ("our Rapture"/"THE Departure [of us in the Rapture]") that will POINT THEM [the believing remnant of Israel] toward the specific TIMING ISSUES, and in fact, this is precisely what I believe the SPECIFIC WORDING in Daniel 12:6-7 speaks to (as it is worded specifically there), and which "the WISE [of Israel]," the text says "WILL UNDERSTAND" (and in such a way that ONLY THEY CAN [they've had the OT scriptures all along, mind you]... though it is THEY who will ALSO be using such [(then) new-found] "WISDOM" [coz they will have come to faith IN/DURING the trib] to "turn many to righteousness" IN/DURING that specific time period [all of this being what transpires at some point AFTER "our Rapture," see].)

Is any of this reaching that issue which concerns you, per your question here? = )

 

[Ahwatukee]

It is generally accepted that the crucifixion of Christ was on the 14th of Nisan in 30 AD (although some postulate 33 AD that is incorrect, but 38 AD is not even mentioned).

Decree of Cyrus to Crucifixion = 483 years. So 483 - 30 = 453 BC.

The first year of Cyrus is generally taken as 536 BC. However, Martin Anstey did a very thorough study of Old Testament chronology in his book by that title, and discovered that the generally accepted chronological system of Ptolemy was in excess by 83 years. So when you subtract 83 from 536, you get 453 BC.

That's why I mentioned the calendar changes. Nehemiah's request to rebuild Jerusalem fits right in the period. You don't have any other times where Jerusalem was rebuilt, which would fit in with that time period. Nehemiah is all about the rebuilding of Israel.

What does 453 BC have to do with Christ's crucifixion in 30ish AD? Cyrus doesn't fit the time table.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What does 453 BC have to do with Christ's crucifixion in 30ish AD?

That would be precisely 30 AD.
" Pontius Pilate is known to have ruled Judea from AD 26–36. The crucifixion took place during a Passover (Mark 14:12), and that fact, plus astronomical data (the Jewish calendar was lunar-based), narrows the field to two dates—April 7, AD 30, and April 3, AD 33. There are scholarly arguments supporting both dates; the later date (AD 33) would require Jesus to have had a longer ministry and to have begun it later. The earlier date (AD 30) would seem more in keeping with what we deduce about the start of Jesus’ ministry from Luke 3:1. "
https://www.gotquestions.org/what-year-did-Jesus-die.html

When you add 453 to 30 you get 483 (that is equal to 69 weeks of years x 7). From the decree of Cyrus (453 BC) to the Crucifixion of Christ (30 AD), Daniel gives us 69 weeks of years. Therefore one week of seven years is in the future.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [7 x 7 = 49 years], and threescore [7 x 3 x 20 = 420 years] and two weeks [2 x 7 = 14 years: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself... (Dan 9:26,27)

49+420 +14 = 483 years. 490-483 = 7 years remaining.

Ptolemy's chronology put the first year of Cyrus at 536 BC. But it was in error by 83 years. So 536-83 = 453.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I have talked to others who believe as you about Israel and never got a good answer to these questions on that position. Why does the whole nation at one point in time and no other point in time fulfill the prophesy that "all Israel will be saved?" What about the people who lived before and what about their children who live after them who decide to be atheists? Is this like a "magic moment" when all Israelies believe and then it doesn't matter what happened to the Jews before and after?

If you understood Matthew 24:15-22 and Revelation 12, you would understand that, the unbelieving nation of Israel, who will be dwelling there in Jerusalem and Judea. And when that abomination is set up on the holy place within the future temple, it will cause the desolation, which is what Rev.12:6 & 14 are referring to when the woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness and is cared for by God for 1260 days, which is the 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

The church and the nation Israel are two different dispensations, God having different programs with both. Those who believe in Christ, both Jew and Gentile, will be gathered and taken back to the Father's house, as promised in John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:16-17. Ater that, God will pick up right where He left off with the unbelieving nation of Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years of the decree. At the same, God will be pouring out His wrath on the rest of the Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.


IF someone gave it some thought, it is a strange theology that insists the political region of Israel with all its inhabitants have to become Christians, every last one of them, in order for God to fulfill his promise. Man is controlling the fulfillment of the plan of God forcing HIm to violate HIs own love of freedom for his beloved creatures and force those who do not want to be redeemed to be redeemed. Otherwise He did not fulfill his promise.

Not true! Do you actually think that it will be a coincidence that there will be exactly 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel? That is done by God's Sovereign election, not man's decision. Another example of God's Sovereignty, is found when Elijah said,

============================================================================
“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”

And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
===========================================================================

God's reservation of seven thousand who did not bow the knee to Baal, was by God's Sovereign choice, not theirs.

In the same way, those 144,000 out of Israel is also by God's Sovereign choice, as well as those who will be cared for out in the wilderness and who will eventually say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

 

[Ahwatukee]

That is not a good answer at all. That is a "turn your mind off so that you do not have to think about this problem." The downside of that decision is that one is unable to love God with the mind. Who in the Bible answered questions of this sort with "well, God planned it."

The problem is God did not plan it what way that you suggest. He is not waiting for the one generation of Jews who will all say "yes" to Him so He can finally end the world.

=========================================
Regarding the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.
========================================

 

[DorothyMae]

Sorry I had to delete come of your post. I can only have 1000 characters.

For starters, I've made posts on the TIMING issues (re: Rev), how that 1:1 says, "...TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3] things which must come to pass [<--COMPARE this phrase with 1:19c and 4:1 re: the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." (NOT things which would transpire over the course of some near-2000 years [that is what "the things which ARE" spoke in reference to, BY CONTRAST], but what must come to pass "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [i.e. the future 7-yr trib yrs, from SEAL #1 (parallel the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' [a 'certain one' bringing DECEPTION']") to the END of the trib Rev19 Christ's "RETURN" to the earth, for the Rev19:15b thing "He SHALL [future tense] SHEPHERD them [the nations (i.e. "on the earth")] with a rod [sceptre] of iron [righteousness and strength]"].) So that's PART of my reasoning for its "FUTURE" setting (along with what I'd just put in my Post #915 about Rev5:9 and 5:4; and related issues in 2Th2).

Yes, I know how the words have been changed to mean future. One reads the words that say his servants should know what will soon take place and real churches are mentioned but your theology changes it into those who got that revelation couldn't have a clue since it was for people 2000+ years away and so absolutely useless to them. The churches the letters were sent to that would have comforted them was equally useless since none of it was meant for them. I have one poster here who insisted, maybe it was you, who said it doesnt mean "soon" but quickly and they have seen these developments over the last 40 years. Now 40 years is not quickly by any stretch of the imagination. So I know the theology. A vision given to John for the church so that they would understand what is about to happen was not so they could understand what was about to happen at all. That is your position.

So that's two issues, TIMING and LOCATION (and the "WHO" of it), thus far...

The church is Jerusalem saw this as telling THEM to flee and they did and saved their lives. And most Christians do not live in Jerusalem so this information, absolutely vital to them, is useless to us and if the whole world is in the hands of evil, there is no where to flee to in any case. Another piece of useless warning/information.

Next, I will quote from an old post...

[quoting an old post on the "[BE] SET UP [H5414]" of Daniel 12:11]

Here's something I posted back in ___, when discussing with ___... Note especially the parts about the "abomination [SINGULAR]" that both Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 12:11 use (connecting these in particular) and the word for "set up" in Dan12:11--I believe this is important to note:

[quoting that post from back then (pretty sure my highlighting won't transfer here)]

Here's my thinking on that.

I think I've mentioned a cpl times the usage of the "abomination [singular]" that Jesus refers to (where He said in Matt24:15 "When ye therefore see the abomination [singular] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place..."), that this points back to its usage in the singular also in Daniel, that being Daniel 12:11 "the abomination [singular] which maketh desolate SET UP [H5414]..."; so it is this "set up [H5414]" word that I think may help us when looking into [...<snip>...]



[and]

Allow me to just insert (what I've said in the past), I do believe the "flee" in Matt24:16 correlates with the "fled/fly" of Rev12:6,14 (with 1260 days remaining until His Second Coming to the earth FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom)… so there's that, to consider also. [i.e. the "SEE-then-FLEE" issues, of the Olivet Discourse I've mentioned before (being TWO WHOLLY DISTINCT events at entirely DISTINCT time-slots)]

[i.e. the duration of time in both passages (meaning, Dan12:11/Matt24:15 and Rev12:6,14) ENDS at the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (not "our Rapture") and the resurrection of OT saints (per Dan12:13's wording speaking of "at the END of the days [the "days" referred to in THAT context (vv.6-7,1)]") FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom--
[...<snip>...]

[and]

See also Matthew 24:15's "standing [G2476 - histemi]" :

--"standing [G2476 - hestos/histemi]" … "Usage: trans: (a) I make to stand, place, set up, establish, appoint; mid: I place myself, stand, (b) I set in balance, weigh; intrans: (c) I stand, stand by, stand still; met: I stand ready, stand firm, am steadfast." [source: Bible Hub; G2476 in Matthew 24:15 is a "transitive verb" as shown defined in the bolded portion above]

[end quoting that portion, with a clarifying inserted bracketed section for this post]
____________

So exactly what does this tell you to do should these events happen?

I think in another post I'd also brought in the thoughts expressed in the wording of Rev13:2b (which "time-frame" is generally at the SAME point as both, or rather, all three of these passages already mentioned ^ in this post [as well as the same point in time, generally speaking, as that of Rev12:12 / Rev9:1--the MID-trib point, aka the starting point of the SECOND half of the trib yrs--which is at the same time as the 2Th2:4 "sitteth in the temple of God" takes place, which word [G2523] I'd also posted about in another post, somewhere O.O ... well, here's a condensed version of THAT: "[G2523] Definition: to make to sit down, to sit down Usage: (a) trans: I make to sit; I set, appoint, (b) [...]" (and) "[this would be similar to the verse which states, "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves [G2523 - (transitive)] in Moses' seat" Matt23:2 (meaning, "to establish, to set, to appoint" and in other contexts is used like "to confer the kingdom," and "to appoint one to act as judge"]").

Again, my apologies for a "choppy" post (taken mostly from a post I'd made in the context of a DIFFERENT convo--may the readers take note of that fact = ) )

[end quoting those posts]


____________

So, as for the matter of it being TELEVISED or NOT, first off, I'm not certain it matters whether it is or not; secondly, this particular point in the chronology will take place MID-way through the trib, whereas a PRIMARY IMPETUS (I posted about), "our Rapture," will have taken place way back even prior to SEAL #1 which SEAL "kicks off" the trib yrs, so ALREADY there has been a MASSIVE piece of EVIDENCE provided to them ("our Rapture"/"THE Departure [of us in the Rapture]") that will POINT THEM [the believing remnant of Israel] toward the specific TIMING ISSUES, and in fact, this is precisely what I believe the SPECIFIC WORDING in Daniel 12:6-7 speaks to (as it is worded specifically there), and which "the WISE [of Israel]," the text says "WILL UNDERSTAND" (and in such a way that ONLY THEY CAN [they've had the OT scriptures all along, mind you]... though it is THEY who will ALSO be using such [(then) new-found] "WISDOM" [coz they will have come to faith IN/DURING the trib] to "turn many to righteousness" IN/DURING that specific time period [all of this being what transpires at some point AFTER "our Rapture," see].)

Is any of this reaching that issue which concerns you, per your question here? = )

I really appreciate you taking the time to address what you think are my questions. It was hard to follow but that is not your fault. My questions concerned a few things.
1. What good does it do the Jews, the billions, who have lived and died before the events your theology tells you will happen where one generation of Jews happens to believe Jesus is the Messiah? That "all Israel" means what? ALl the Jews in all the world? What about the Jews who are already dead and rejected the testimony of JEsus?
2. Where will you or anyone who believes this go should these events start and leaving Jerusalem is no good since the world is in trouble? How does this help you escape? (Remember we are to flee Bablyon so we do not share in her punishment.)
3. What were the churchs mentioned in Revelation to do with the letters sent to them in your view?

I am a very practical person and live out my faith in practical ways. I do know for sure that the first century CHristians in Jerusalem thought Matthew 24 and the warnings in Revelation were for them and literally left town. They for sure, as well as all the other Christians living at the time, did not believe the information and warnings were for a future generation. Were they mistaken in your view?

 

[DorothyMae]

=========================================
Regarding the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.
========================================

So they are saved because we are saved? What do you think this means?

 

[Ahwatukee]

That would be precisely 30 AD.
" Pontius Pilate is known to have ruled Judea from AD 26–36. The crucifixion took place during a Passover (Mark 14:12), and that fact, plus astronomical data (the Jewish calendar was lunar-based), narrows the field to two dates—April 7, AD 30, and April 3, AD 33. There are scholarly arguments supporting both dates; the later date (AD 33) would require Jesus to have had a longer ministry and to have begun it later. The earlier date (AD 30) would seem more in keeping with what we deduce about the start of Jesus’ ministry from Luke 3:1. "
https://www.gotquestions.org/what-year-did-Jesus-die.html

When you add 453 to 30 you get 483 (that is equal to 69 weeks of years x 7). From the decree of Cyrus (453 BC) to the Crucifixion of Christ (30 AD), Daniel gives us 69 weeks of years. Therefore one week of seven years is in the future.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [7 x 7 = 49 years], and threescore [7 x 3 x 20 = 420 years] and two weeks [2 x 7 = 14 years: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself... (Dan 9:26,27)

49+420 +14 = 483 years. 490-483 = 7 years remaining.

Ptolemy's chronology put the first year of Cyrus at 536 BC. But it was in error by 83 years. So 536-83 = 453.

Cyrus did not restore and rebuild Jerusalem. He rebuilt the temple. Nehemiah is all about the rebuilding and restoration of Israel.
I have heard other teach regarding Cyrus, but I'd have to stick with what I have studied on this, as Nehemiah receiving letters/decrees to pass through the Trans-Euphrates and letters to take wood from the kings forest.

 

[DorothyMae]

I cannot answer your post and the quotes are not right, but the inhabitants have no records as to which tribe they belong to as far as I know. Those records were destroyed in 70 AD. And God does not sovereignly make people get saved. ANd the 7000 who did not bow the knee to Baal was by their choice as well, same as salvation is our choice as well as His. But He chooses everyone so it is mostly our choice.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So they are saved because we are saved? What do you think this means?

I didn't write it. God did. The scripture is saying that, just as we Gentiles were disobedient and received God's grace and mercy, so they have also been given over to disobedience so that they too may receive God's grace and His mercy.

God is the one doing the saving and not mankind saving themselves. Those whom God chose from before the world began, still have to have faith, but God is the One who did the choosing, the one who predestined and foreknew. And these He wrote in His book before the world began, which was not based on works or what they would do in the future, but by God's Sovereign will.

 

[DorothyMae]

I didn't write it. God did. The scripture is saying that, just as we Gentiles were disobedient and received God's grace and mercy, so they have also been given over to disobedience so that they too may receive God's grace and His mercy.

That you quote it completely out of context tells me that this is your writing, not God's. Satan quoted scripture too but that does not mean his understanding was God's.

God is the one doing the saving and not mankind saving themselves. Those whom God chose from before the world began, still have to have faith, but God is the One who did the choosing, the one who predestined and foreknew. And these He wrote in His book before the world began, which was not based on works or what they would do in the future, but by God's Sovereign will.

OK, a Calvinist. Probably no point in going further on this.

 

[biker]

The last bit is unlikely as John could barely walk in his 90s and barely speak. It is wishful thinking with no evidence. Also, this eloquent writer wrote nothing over 50 years!!!! Highly doubtful.

Not a single Church Father including John's own Disciples indicate he was crippled and could barely walk or speak. Both Polycarp and Irenaeus claim he was still preaching in Ephesus till 100 AD.

Where do you come up with these lies and assumptions at?

I have researched everywhere and there is nothing to back your assumption.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I cannot answer your post and the quotes are not right, but the inhabitants have no records as to which tribe they belong to as far as I know. Those records were destroyed in 70 AD. And God does not sovereignly make people get saved. ANd the 7000 who did not bow the knee to Baal was by their choice as well, same as salvation is our choice as well as His. But He chooses everyone so it is mostly our choice.

Really?! Scripture does not agree with you.

=====================================
Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
===================================================

It is God who calls and that by His Sovereign will. Regarding this Jesus said, "no man comes to the Father but through me," which means that there are some whom the Father does not draw to His Son. Only those whose names that were written in the book of life before the world began will the Father draw. The scripture below speaks volumes:

"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come."

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

The names of those whom God chose, were written in the book of life before the world even began. And there were names that were not written at that time. Is that fair? Yes, because all have sinned and all deserve death. But God in His love saved some, those whom He chose. And He chose them before the world began.

I know that many people don't like to hear this teaching, but that is what scripture has to say on this matter.

 

[DorothyMae]

Really?! Scripture does not agree with you.

=====================================
Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
===================================================

It is God who calls and that by His Sovereign will. Regarding this Jesus said, "no man comes to the Father but through me," which means that there are some whom the Father does not draw to His Son. Only those whose names that were written in the book of life before the world began will the Father draw. The scripture below speaks volumes:

"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come."

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

The names of those whom God chose, were written in the book of life before the world even began. And there were names that were not written at that time. Is that fair? Yes, because all have sinned and all deserve death. But God in His love saved some, those whom He chose. And He chose them before the world began.

I know that many people don't like to hear this teaching, but that is what scripture has to say on this matter.

I am not debating Calvinism with you. From experience I know your kind of believers are deeply intolerant of other positions same as Calvin was. This thread is not about that and I will honor the subject of the thread. Start a new one about Calvinism if you want to debate it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

That you quote it completely out of context tells me that this is your writing, not God's. Satan quoted scripture too but that does not mean his understanding was God's.
OK, a Calvinist. Probably no point in going further on this.

That is always what people say to discredit someone who is speaking the truth. The fact is that I posted the scripture which says the same exact thing that I did. I didn't take anything out of context. It means what it says. You have the example there where Paul demonstrates this truth in that, God raised up Pharaoh for the specific purpose of displaying His power against Pharaoh, that His name might be proclaimed in all the earth. But you just breezed by that and stated that I took it out of context.

He makes the same point regarding Jacob and Esau, which states that before either of them were born or had done nothing either good or bad, God said, "Jacob I have love, but Esau I have hated. God's has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and He hardens whomever He hardens.

 

[crossnote]

What events did He organize that brought out repentence when Jesus was on earth? The descriptions always seem to indicate the person saw their sin and repented then and now. So when does God orchestrate stuff so people cannot but repent and why doesn't He just do this for the whole world now?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(Rom 11:25-29)

 

[DorothyMae]

That is always what people say to discredit someone who is speaking the truth. The fact is that I posted the scripture which says the same exact thing that I did. I didn't take anything out of context. It means what it says. You have the example there where Paul demonstrates this truth in that, God raised up Pharaoh for the specific purpose of displaying His power against Pharaoh, that His name might be proclaimed in all the earth. But you just breezed by that and stated that I took it out of context.

He makes the same point regarding Jacob and Esau, which states that before either of them were born or had done nothing either good or bad, God said, "Jacob I have love, but Esau I have hated. God's has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and He hardens whomever He hardens.

Please respect the thread subject.

 

[DorothyMae]

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(Rom 11:25-29)

I asked for a PAST tense reference. This is not past tense in your theology.

 

[biker]

That's right Dorothy, ignore the fact that what you claim cannot be verified. ignore the fact that what you post is not factual but pure speculation and assumption on your part concerning the Apostle John. If you tell the same myth long enough it becomes a truth, is that your hope?

 

[crossnote]

only the small "Remnant" of Jew's will be saved and added to "Israel" the Church.

Except during the Tribulation, there will be no adding to the Church, as the Church (bride of Christ) will already be with Jesus in heaven waiting to return with Jesus at the end of the Tribulation.