The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
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If God's decision to redeem and restore Israel is not good enough for you, you are actually questioning God's wisdom.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (Rom 11:32,33)
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (Rom 11:32,33)
... except "...so He can finally end the world" is not the "purpose".
See again Acts 3:21 -
"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. the fulfillments of all remaining OT prophecies, having been spoken by the mouth of the OT prophets, which includes the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age; See again Hosea 5:14,15-6:3 ("TILL") re: Israel]
[EDIT: I see crossnote beat me to it, in Post #901 (*thumbsup*)]
See again Acts 3:21 -
"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. the fulfillments of all remaining OT prophecies, having been spoken by the mouth of the OT prophets, which includes the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age; See again Hosea 5:14,15-6:3 ("TILL") re: Israel]
[EDIT: I see crossnote beat me to it, in Post #901 (*thumbsup*)]
The promised kingdom is happening as we speak. One by one the nations are ceasing from choosing war. War is no longer the honorable pursuit of world leaders. More and more people are become Christians in the world (except the west.)
But your position is a hostile tyrannical act, the one the Dispensationalists want.
My position is a “whosoever will” movement, gentle and desirable in nature. That is God’s way.
God is not waiting until every living Israelie (not sure what you guys say about the vast majority of Jews living elsewhere) decides to believe Jesus is the Messiah all
the meanwhile the promise of God is being held hostage to their stubbornness.
I know you guys just dismiss every problem with “God will do
it” or “God planned it” but since I have the stronger arguments and do not resort to turning off the mind answers, I’m confident your position is incorrect.
God’s way are rational and able to be understood by man. He just doesn’t reveal Himself to every man for rational and understandable reasons.
But your position is a hostile tyrannical act, the one the Dispensationalists want.
My position is a “whosoever will” movement, gentle and desirable in nature. That is God’s way.
God is not waiting until every living Israelie (not sure what you guys say about the vast majority of Jews living elsewhere) decides to believe Jesus is the Messiah all
the meanwhile the promise of God is being held hostage to their stubbornness.
I know you guys just dismiss every problem with “God will do
it” or “God planned it” but since I have the stronger arguments and do not resort to turning off the mind answers, I’m confident your position is incorrect.
God’s way are rational and able to be understood by man. He just doesn’t reveal Himself to every man for rational and understandable reasons.
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I almost laughed out loud at that one. It is not God's wisdom I am questioning, it is yours. You need to keep in mind that when someone disagrees with you about what you think God does, it does not mean they disagree with God.
I told you that God already decided to redeem Israel and through them the whole world (all nations) and started when Jesus started preaching. It has been an ongoing process and whosoever will is included. But whosoever will not is not included.
God is not into restoring the political nation of Israel. He does not think that every last living Jew at some point in time needs to accept the Messiah or his mission has failed. He is not waiitng until they repent being tied until they do and He will never force anyone to repent. Revelation actually says that despite the plagues, they refused to repent. It does not say He goes and makes 'em anyway.
I told you that God already decided to redeem Israel and through them the whole world (all nations) and started when Jesus started preaching. It has been an ongoing process and whosoever will is included. But whosoever will not is not included.
God is not into restoring the political nation of Israel. He does not think that every last living Jew at some point in time needs to accept the Messiah or his mission has failed. He is not waiitng until they repent being tied until they do and He will never force anyone to repent. Revelation actually says that despite the plagues, they refused to repent. It does not say He goes and makes 'em anyway.
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My position is that, one of the "purposes" of "our Rapture," is that, it is a primary IMPETUS which turns Israel to their Messiah.
During the tribulation period (which follows "our Rapture"), those of Israel (who will have come to faith early in the trib years [increasing throughout the trib]) will be the ones doing the "INVITING" to the [earthly] MK age which follows that (aka "the wedding feast/supper") with the MESSAGE of Matt24:14[26:13] (the results being shown in Rev7:9-17, for one example, and Matt25:31-34 and context being another, as well as some of the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" contexts), and they [meaning, the believing remnant of Israel] are the ones being spoken of in Matt25:40,45 "the least of these My brethren" whom "the nations [/Gentiles]" will either "BLESS [/aid]" (and themselves be called "ye BLESSED" by our Lord, upon His "return") or will NOT bless[/aid] (who will be the ones our Lord calls "ye CURSED"--Matt25), during that time period of great persecution against them (Matt24:9b, etc) [that is, during the 7 specific limited (future) yrs leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth; whereas "the Church which is His body" has experienced "tribulations and persecutions" on and off throughout its entire (near-)2000-yrs since its existence (2Th1:4 and other passages), Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]
I believe that DURING those 7 specific limited (future) years leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth (FOR the MK age), the specific "message" of Matt24:14[26:13] and Matt22:8-14 will be "going out" (pertaining to the INVITATION TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka the earthly MK age / "the age [singular] to come"]; I'm pretty sure this is also when the following passage applies:
--"17[1] And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!'"
--"[2] And the one hearing, let him say, 'Come!'"
--"[3] And the one thirsting let him come;"
--"the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life."
This is where I believe Rom11:25 tells us about the "blindness [/hardening]... UNTIL"
(Romans 11:25[15]-29, with v.15 being parallel with a number of other passages I've listed before that LIKEN Israel's coming up out of the graveyard of nations [where scattered], LIKEN IT UNTO "a resurrection" [via God's power]--Daniel 12:1-4,10; Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; etc). I do not consider that to look "HOSTILE" but will be rather "desirable" (desired on their part, even, see).
Again, I see the event of "our Rapture" as being an IMPETUS that aids in the opening of their eyes, so to speak, that Jesus IS INDEED their Messiah (and then they fulfill their specific role IN/DURING the trib yrs, as those having come to faith within/during the trib yrs, as the ones DOING the INVITING TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [i.e. the earthly MK age]"--yes there will be "hostility against them" by the AC and those on that side [against Christ], but the purpose of the trib yrs is to bring Israel into the New Covenant and usher them into the earthly MK age [with their "guests [/the Gentiles who AID/BLESS them/the SHEEP of Matt25:31-34's context, etc etc]").
Presently, our ('the Church which is His body') instructions include, that "as often as ye do it, YE DO PROCLAIM the Lord's DEATH till He come" [till He come for us in the Rapture event], at which time we will BE CORPORATELY PROCLAIMING something ELSE... and this COPRPORATE MASSIVE *EVENT* will be used by God as a major IMPETUS that turns Israel to their Messiah. And that is a POSITIVE THING.
During the tribulation period (which follows "our Rapture"), those of Israel (who will have come to faith early in the trib years [increasing throughout the trib]) will be the ones doing the "INVITING" to the [earthly] MK age which follows that (aka "the wedding feast/supper") with the MESSAGE of Matt24:14[26:13] (the results being shown in Rev7:9-17, for one example, and Matt25:31-34 and context being another, as well as some of the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" contexts), and they [meaning, the believing remnant of Israel] are the ones being spoken of in Matt25:40,45 "the least of these My brethren" whom "the nations [/Gentiles]" will either "BLESS [/aid]" (and themselves be called "ye BLESSED" by our Lord, upon His "return") or will NOT bless[/aid] (who will be the ones our Lord calls "ye CURSED"--Matt25), during that time period of great persecution against them (Matt24:9b, etc) [that is, during the 7 specific limited (future) yrs leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth; whereas "the Church which is His body" has experienced "tribulations and persecutions" on and off throughout its entire (near-)2000-yrs since its existence (2Th1:4 and other passages), Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]
I believe that DURING those 7 specific limited (future) years leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth (FOR the MK age), the specific "message" of Matt24:14[26:13] and Matt22:8-14 will be "going out" (pertaining to the INVITATION TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka the earthly MK age / "the age [singular] to come"]; I'm pretty sure this is also when the following passage applies:
--"17[1] And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!'"
--"[2] And the one hearing, let him say, 'Come!'"
--"[3] And the one thirsting let him come;"
--"the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life."
This is where I believe Rom11:25 tells us about the "blindness [/hardening]... UNTIL"
(Romans 11:25[15]-29, with v.15 being parallel with a number of other passages I've listed before that LIKEN Israel's coming up out of the graveyard of nations [where scattered], LIKEN IT UNTO "a resurrection" [via God's power]--Daniel 12:1-4,10; Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; etc). I do not consider that to look "HOSTILE" but will be rather "desirable" (desired on their part, even, see).
Again, I see the event of "our Rapture" as being an IMPETUS that aids in the opening of their eyes, so to speak, that Jesus IS INDEED their Messiah (and then they fulfill their specific role IN/DURING the trib yrs, as those having come to faith within/during the trib yrs, as the ones DOING the INVITING TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [i.e. the earthly MK age]"--yes there will be "hostility against them" by the AC and those on that side [against Christ], but the purpose of the trib yrs is to bring Israel into the New Covenant and usher them into the earthly MK age [with their "guests [/the Gentiles who AID/BLESS them/the SHEEP of Matt25:31-34's context, etc etc]").
Presently, our ('the Church which is His body') instructions include, that "as often as ye do it, YE DO PROCLAIM the Lord's DEATH till He come" [till He come for us in the Rapture event], at which time we will BE CORPORATELY PROCLAIMING something ELSE... and this COPRPORATE MASSIVE *EVENT* will be used by God as a major IMPETUS that turns Israel to their Messiah. And that is a POSITIVE THING.
There wont be a pre-trib rapture, a false teaching found in John N. Darby's, C.I. Scofields dispensationalism.
The verses below are nothing more than the future "Second Coming" and last day resurrection.
1 These 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The verses below are nothing more than the future "Second Coming" and last day resurrection.
1 These 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The termination day is not the crucifixion it is the triumphal entry. It is on that day that the Messiah presents himself to Israel as their king riding on a foal fulfilling the Zec 9:9 prophecy. Entering with great fanfare the people sing psalm 118. Jesus of course knows the exact day and pre arranges all of the details including the foal. That would be 173,880 days from Nehemiah chapter 2.
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Your viewpoint comes as a result of [your] usurping Israel's role and place (inserting [self] INTO passages referring to them). You are simply repeating what you've HEARD, yet have supplied nothing by way of Scriptural evidence of it.
There are no passages showing a "POST-trib Rapture," and no reasons for it being "POST-trib," yet I have (in past posts) supplied numerous ones pointing out "PRE-trib"... among them being Rev5:9 where the 24 elders (FOLLOWING a "searching judgment" as indicated by the word "WAS FOUND" [5:4] like is used re: Paul at his arrest/trials before their [human/earthly] BEMA SEAT in the latter parts of Acts) who are SAYING "hast redeemed [/purchased] US to God out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (I supplied the manuscript evidence vid; these are people/humans, not angels; and they have "stephanos/crowns" [recall Paul's words about how he would be "awarded" one "IN THAT DAY" i.e. not the day of his DEATH
] and are sitting on "thrones" which speaks of judgments [recall 1Cor6:3[14] "we [the Church which is His body] shall judge angels" (think: change of LOCATION), whereas "the 12" were told they will "sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel," see (i.e. an EARTHLY location of "judging"); etc etc]); What I'd posted about 2Th2 is also pertinent, as well as "the DOTL's ARRIVAL" 1Th5:2-3 being the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of many more that FOLLOW ON from that INTIAL one [Jesus spoke of these, Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 and which are parallel to the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the trib]... IOW, the scriptural evidences I've supplied (and don't want to go into in this post) are ABUNDANT. Yours are nil, sorry to say. = )
There are no passages showing a "POST-trib Rapture," and no reasons for it being "POST-trib," yet I have (in past posts) supplied numerous ones pointing out "PRE-trib"... among them being Rev5:9 where the 24 elders (FOLLOWING a "searching judgment" as indicated by the word "WAS FOUND" [5:4] like is used re: Paul at his arrest/trials before their [human/earthly] BEMA SEAT in the latter parts of Acts) who are SAYING "hast redeemed [/purchased] US to God out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (I supplied the manuscript evidence vid; these are people/humans, not angels; and they have "stephanos/crowns" [recall Paul's words about how he would be "awarded" one "IN THAT DAY" i.e. not the day of his DEATH
] and are sitting on "thrones" which speaks of judgments [recall 1Cor6:3[14] "we [the Church which is His body] shall judge angels" (think: change of LOCATION), whereas "the 12" were told they will "sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel," see (i.e. an EARTHLY location of "judging"); etc etc]); What I'd posted about 2Th2 is also pertinent, as well as "the DOTL's ARRIVAL" 1Th5:2-3 being the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of many more that FOLLOW ON from that INTIAL one [Jesus spoke of these, Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 and which are parallel to the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the trib]... IOW, the scriptural evidences I've supplied (and don't want to go into in this post) are ABUNDANT. Yours are nil, sorry to say. = )Correct.
https://biblehub.com/luke/21-24.htm
https://biblehub.com/romans/11-25.htm
I think that all of the controversy has its roots in unbelief. Simple as that.
https://biblehub.com/luke/21-24.htm
https://biblehub.com/romans/11-25.htm
I think that all of the controversy has its roots in unbelief. Simple as that.