THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY

[Chester]

Salvation is a "gift" by grace through faith apart from any and all works.... to add in "turn from sin" as a requirement makes it a bilateral transaction ....quid pro quo..... it is not.

We do not make a promise to turn from sin in order to receive the gift of salvation...moreover Jesus is Lord we do not make Him Lord.

Has anyone who "promised to turn from sin" every done well keeping their promise?

You said "salvation is a gift by grace through faith" - yes, absolutely I agree with that - Paul says that in Eph. 2

But I am not sure what you mean by the "apart from any and all works"? Paul says "not of works" (Eph. 2) - but then he spends a lot of time in the last three chapters of Ephesians giving practical commands and instructions on how to live. I don't want to assume what you are saying - but what do you mean by "apart from any and all works"?

 

[EleventhHour]

Has anyone who "promised to turn from sin" every done well keeping their promise?

You said "salvation is a gift by grace through faith" - yes, absolutely I agree with that - Paul says that in Eph. 2

But I am not sure what you mean by the "apart from any and all works"? Paul says "not of works" (Eph. 2) - but then he spends a lot of time in the last three chapters of Ephesians giving practical commands and instructions on how to live. I don't want to assume what you are saying - but what do you mean by "apart from any and all works"?

I was referring to this....

Romans 4:5... "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

 

[Chester]

Anyone who has the gift of faith will automatically do works by availing himself to God-s will. It is the new man, and it demonstrates having fait ,without consciously attempting to demonstrate it. All the children know this.

Do you have a Scripture that says it is automatic?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Salvation is a "gift" by grace through faith apart from any and all works.... to add in "turn from sin" as a requirement makes it a bilateral transaction ....quid pro quo..... it is not.

That is TOTALLY FALSE. The gift of eternal life (which includes the gift of the Holy Spirit) is given to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

REPENTANCE NECESSARY FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Mt 4:17)

And [Christ] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Lk 24:46,47)

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

[Peter said] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19)

[Paul said] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30,31)

And how I [Paul] kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ... Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. (Acts 20:20,21,26,27)

As you can see Jesus, Peter, and Paul (and all the apostles) preached repentance for the remission of sins. So those who deny or reject this are preaching a FALSE GOSPEL.

We do not make a promise to turn from sin in order to receive the gift of salvation...moreover Jesus is Lord we do not make Him Lord.

Yes, Jesus is indeed Lord, but every sinner must make Him Lord (Ruler and Master) of his or her life. That means total surrender to Christ. And that is exactly what the Pharisee Saul (the persecutor of the Church) did when he met the glorified Christ on the road to Damascus.

And he [Saul] fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. (Acts 9:4-6)

 

[EleventhHour]

That is TOTALLY FALSE. The gift of eternal life (which includes the gift of the Holy Spirit) is given to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

REPENTANCE NECESSARY FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Mt 4:17)

And [Christ] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Lk 24:46,47)

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

[Peter said] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19)

[Paul said] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30,31)

And how I [Paul] kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ... Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. (Acts 20:20,21,26,27)

As you can see Jesus, Peter, and Paul (and all the apostles) preached repentance for the remission of sins. So those who deny or reject this are preaching a FALSE GOSPEL.

Yes, Jesus is indeed Lord, but every sinner must make Him Lord (Ruler and Master) of his or her life. That means total surrender to Christ. And that is exactly what the Pharisee Saul (the persecutor of the Church) did when he met the glorified Christ on the road to Damascus.

And he [Saul] fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. (Acts 9:4-6)

And I never stated repentance is not part of salvation.

 

[Chester]

Yes, I have saving faith and I know it now. Excuse me but I don't get the debate. Christ is Lord of our lives. I don't get this Lordship Salvation deal.

Me too -- trying to figure out what is the fuss . . . ? I want God to be Lord of my life and help me live above sin - Sinning is miserable - I don't like it - it enslaves a person - Isn't having Jesus as Lord a good thing that we should want and pursue? I don't see why it has to be separated from being saved???? I thought being saved was deliverance from sin and being set free to serve God and bring Him honor and glory!?

 

[John146]

Yes, Jesus is indeed Lord, but every sinner must make Him Lord (Ruler and Master) of his or her life. That means total surrender to Christ.

I don’t know of anyone who fits this description.

 

[Chester]

I was referring to this....

Romans 4:5... "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

I take Romans 4:5 simply to mean that the one that is not working on his own strength to be saved, but instead believes in God, then he is saved because of his faith (believing).

I don't see how Roman 4:5 puts being saved by faith "apart from any and all works"? see also my post #186 to explain why I am confused

 

[EleventhHour]

Yes, Jesus is indeed Lord, but every sinner must make Him Lord

Obeying the gospel means believing it.

The false belief that one must also either implicitly or explicitly agree to obey Christ in order to receive the free gift of eternal life is not found anywhere in the Bible.

 

[EleventhHour]

I take Romans 4:5 simply to mean that the one that is not working on his own strength to be saved, but instead believes in God, then he is saved because of his faith (believing).

I don't see how Roman 4:5 puts being saved by faith "apart from any and all works"? see also my post #186 to explain why I am confused

I would say that is the same thing .. there is no work involved in faith.

 

[Magenta]

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight." (Proverbs 3:5)

Proverbs 3:5-6

 

[EleventhHour]

I take Romans 4:5 simply to mean that the one that is not working on his own strength to be saved, but instead believes in God, then he is saved because of his faith (believing).

I don't see how Roman 4:5 puts being saved by faith "apart from any and all works"? see also my post #186 to explain why I am confused

There are many variations of the Lordship Salvation dogma.. the main problematic one, is the one where the promise of good works must accompany faith in Christ when saved.

 

[Chester]

There are many variations of the Lordship Salvation dogma.. the main problematic one, is the one where the promise of good works must accompany faith in Christ when saved.

LOL! Well, as I said in an earlier post, I have not found anyone who by "promising" has done very well at serving God, so I agree that it is problematic that a "promise" of good works must accompany faith.

 

[Chester]

I would say that is the same thing .. there is no work involved in faith.

In my experience, when people say salvation is "apart from any and all works", what they really mean (my words of course) is - Do not dare speak to me about good works - or I will accuse you of being a works Lordship legalist.

You don't seem that way, though . . .

 

[EleventhHour]

In my experience, when people say salvation is "apart from any and all works", what they really mean (my words of course) is - Do not dare speak to me about good works - or I will accuse you of being a works Lordship legalist.

You don't seem that way, though . . .

I am referencing Romans 4:5 when I state that.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Salvation is a "gift" by grace through faith apart from any and all works.... to add in "turn from sin" as a requirement makes it a bilateral transaction ....quid pro quo..... it is not.

We do not make a promise to turn from sin in order to receive the gift of salvation...moreover Jesus is Lord we do not make Him Lord.

When we are saved it is because God drew us. When He drew us, He drew us out of sin and darkness into grace and light. He turns us from our sins to Himself. When one repents to God, he repents of his sin. You can’t repent to God and not repent of your sin. No more than can one turn to God and not turn from one’s sin.

 

[EleventhHour]

When we are saved it is because God drew us. When He drew us, He drew us out of sin and darkness into grace and light. He turns us from our sins to Himself. When one repents to God, he repents of his sin. You can’t repent to God and not repent of your sin. No more than can one turn to God and not turn from one’s sin.

The root of the meaning of the word repentance: meta=after; noeo=to think.
Put the two together and the effect of meta was “after the fact” or “afterwards.”

Essentially, it means to think about something later on and have a reversal of opinion about it. Thus, repentance meant “to change the mind.”
The word sin is not part of the word we therefore must look to the context to see what the change of mind away and towards is.

An interesting historical fact is that both Luther and Calvin desired to remove the concept of penance from the meaning of repentance and return to the classical Greek meaning.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

The root of the meaning of the word repentance: meta=after; noeo=to think.
Put the two together and the effect of meta was “after the fact” or “afterwards.”

Essentially, it means to think about something later on and have a reversal of opinion about it. Thus, repentance meant “to change the mind.”
The word sin is not part of the word we therefore must look to the context to see what the change of mind away and towards is.

An interesting historical fact is that both Luther and Calvin desired to remove the concept of penance from the meaning of repentance and return to the classical Greek meaning.

I have a Greek DVD series called “Greek For The Rest of Us”, and the instructor is Dr. William Mounce. He was on the ESV translating committee and is now with the NIV. He covered metanoia, and said it’s not just merely changing your mind, but a changing of your mind that brings action. In other words, repentance is not just changing your mind, but also your actions. He used the Pharisees as an example. He said it would be like the Pharisees telling John the Baptist they are changing their minds, but still living in greed. He said John would not have been happy.

So, metanoia is more than just a mere change of mind, but mind and actions...i.e. repenting of sins, too.

 

[EleventhHour]

I have a Greek DVD series called “Greek For The Rest of Us”, and the instructor is Dr. William Mounce. He was on the ESV translating committee and is now with the NIV. He covered metanoia, and said it’s not just merely changing your mind, but a changing of your mind that brings action. In other words, repentance is not just changing your mind, but also your actions. He used the Pharisees as an example. He said it would be like the Pharisees telling John the Baptist they are changing their minds, but still living in greed. He said John would not have been happy.

So, metanoia is more than just a mere change of mind, but mind and actions...i.e. repenting of sins, too.

Well I guess I will leave it there then.

 

[azamzimtoti]

I'm pretty sure a change of mind would include a change of actions.