Catholicism vs Protestantism
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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Looks like, then, that we disagree about coming to the father being the same as worshipping the true God.
And I can understand that if you perceive the Catholics to be saying that Muslims are saved, born again true worshippers of Jesus who have come to the father just like us believers, then it makes sense to say the Catholicism is a lie.
If that's what Catholics are saying, then I agree with you!
I think there are layers of meaning in CCC 841 and the lumen gentium that you aren't grasping.
Related to the subject for talking about, it looks to me like there's a difference between worshipping the true God and being a true worshipper of the true God or coming to the father.
We see, for example, that the Samaritans were worshipping the true God, but they were not true worshippers. And I'm pretty sure they were not coming to the father!
At least that's how the passage from 2nd Kings looks to me.
How does it look to you?
And I can understand that if you perceive the Catholics to be saying that Muslims are saved, born again true worshippers of Jesus who have come to the father just like us believers, then it makes sense to say the Catholicism is a lie.
If that's what Catholics are saying, then I agree with you!
I think there are layers of meaning in CCC 841 and the lumen gentium that you aren't grasping.
Related to the subject for talking about, it looks to me like there's a difference between worshipping the true God and being a true worshipper of the true God or coming to the father.
We see, for example, that the Samaritans were worshipping the true God, but they were not true worshippers. And I'm pretty sure they were not coming to the father!
At least that's how the passage from 2nd Kings looks to me.
How does it look to you?
1. Father is true God, so worship the Father is worship part of the true God, I say part because there are 2 more element of God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.
2. Now about coming to the Father.
Can you come to the Father but refused to worship the Father?
As you say when catholic say God, mean all element of God
So ccc 841 is Lie
2. Now about coming to the Father.
Can you come to the Father but refused to worship the Father?
As you say when catholic say God, mean all element of God
So ccc 841 is Lie
John 5
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
If one believe in Moses believe in Jesus.
Moses not the author of the bible, God is
So If you not believe in what Moses wrote you not believe in God
If you believe in Moses you believe in Jesus, because Moses wrote about jesus
Is that posible for a man that don't believe in God, worshiping God?
To me imposible
So ccc 841 is Lie
Muslim doesn't believe in Jesus but adore God
You say God only one and Jesus is one of the element of God isn't It?
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
If one believe in Moses believe in Jesus.
Moses not the author of the bible, God is
So If you not believe in what Moses wrote you not believe in God
If you believe in Moses you believe in Jesus, because Moses wrote about jesus
Is that posible for a man that don't believe in God, worshiping God?
To me imposible
So ccc 841 is Lie
Muslim doesn't believe in Jesus but adore God
You say God only one and Jesus is one of the element of God isn't It?
I'm not sure if Catholics would agree there. I think they are against dividing God into parts, though I'm not completely sure how this works.
"...neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. "
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed
No. However, I believe that is backwards from the question we were talking about.
I believe the question is:
Can you worship God without coming to the father?
I believe the answer is yes, as we see from the Samaritans and the Athenians, probably others in history, too.
I'm not sure if we're communicating, there.
You may wish to take some time and look over the text of the athanasian Creed in the link above and see if your understanding of the Trinity is the same as the Catholic understanding.
That's one possible conclusion!
"...neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. "
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed
No. However, I believe that is backwards from the question we were talking about.
I believe the question is:
Can you worship God without coming to the father?
I believe the answer is yes, as we see from the Samaritans and the Athenians, probably others in history, too.
I'm not sure if we're communicating, there.
You may wish to take some time and look over the text of the athanasian Creed in the link above and see if your understanding of the Trinity is the same as the Catholic understanding.
That's one possible conclusion!
Makes sense so far, but we may wish to keep in mind that Jesus said that the Jews did not believe Moses.
Jesus says that
"We (Jews) worship what we know."
And that would be God, since Jesus includes himself in the "we".
Here I believe you are mixing up the ideas of believing something and believing in something.
I can believe that Elizabeth is Queen of England. That is not the same as believing in Elizabeth, nor is it the same as believing in the British monarchy.
That's correct, it is impossible to worship God if you don't believe that God exists.
But I believe it is possible to believe that God exists, be very misinformed about God, and yet worship God in some fashion.
Well, maybe if we can resolve language and theological issues will understand each other better!
Jesus says that
"We (Jews) worship what we know."
And that would be God, since Jesus includes himself in the "we".
Here I believe you are mixing up the ideas of believing something and believing in something.
I can believe that Elizabeth is Queen of England. That is not the same as believing in Elizabeth, nor is it the same as believing in the British monarchy.
That's correct, it is impossible to worship God if you don't believe that God exists.
But I believe it is possible to believe that God exists, be very misinformed about God, and yet worship God in some fashion.
Well, maybe if we can resolve language and theological issues will understand each other better!
Possibly, possibly not.
the Navajo keep a lot of their religious ideas to themselves, so it's hard to say exactly what they are doing.
But it looks to me like they are falling into this error
Romans 1: 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things.
So the Muslims would be better off in that respect. As I understand it, they don't make images of God. (Classic Islamic art is just designs, from what I've seen.)
Don't get me wrong, Muslims are wrong about a lot of things! But making literal idols is something they don't do, I'm pretty sure.
the Navajo keep a lot of their religious ideas to themselves, so it's hard to say exactly what they are doing.
But it looks to me like they are falling into this error
Romans 1: 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things.
So the Muslims would be better off in that respect. As I understand it, they don't make images of God. (Classic Islamic art is just designs, from what I've seen.)
Don't get me wrong, Muslims are wrong about a lot of things! But making literal idols is something they don't do, I'm pretty sure.
I read about the link
Tha Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
The Father not the Son and Not the Holy Spirit.
So If you say God, It can be Father, Son, Holy Spirit or all of them.
Ccc 841 do not say Father only so It mean all there
And islam not adore the Son as God, so ccc 841 is Lie
Tha Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
The Father not the Son and Not the Holy Spirit.
So If you say God, It can be Father, Son, Holy Spirit or all of them.
Ccc 841 do not say Father only so It mean all there
And islam not adore the Son as God, so ccc 841 is Lie
Jackson
So If you not believe in what Moses wrote you not believe in God
Dan
Here I believe you are mixing up the ideas of believing something and believing in something.
I can believe that Elizabeth is Queen of England. That is not the same as believing in Elizabeth, nor is it the same as believing in the British monarchy.
Jackson
Jews not believe in what Moses wrote.
Moses wrote about God and Jesus
So jews do not believe about God and Jesus
So If you not believe in what Moses wrote you not believe in God
Dan
Here I believe you are mixing up the ideas of believing something and believing in something.
I can believe that Elizabeth is Queen of England. That is not the same as believing in Elizabeth, nor is it the same as believing in the British monarchy.
Jackson
Jews not believe in what Moses wrote.
Moses wrote about God and Jesus
So jews do not believe about God and Jesus