Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Physically Coming to the Father is imposible. So i believe coming to the Father is figurative of worship the Father
Looks like, then, that we disagree about coming to the father being the same as worshipping the true God.

And I can understand that if you perceive the Catholics to be saying that Muslims are saved, born again true worshippers of Jesus who have come to the father just like us believers, then it makes sense to say the Catholicism is a lie.

If that's what Catholics are saying, then I agree with you!

I think there are layers of meaning in CCC 841 and the lumen gentium that you aren't grasping.
Related to the subject for talking about, it looks to me like there's a difference between worshipping the true God and being a true worshipper of the true God or coming to the father.
We see, for example, that the Samaritans were worshipping the true God, but they were not true worshippers. And I'm pretty sure they were not coming to the father!

At least that's how the passage from 2nd Kings looks to me.
How does it look to you?
 

Dan_473

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And quran do not believe Jesus die oN the cross

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
— Qur'an, surah 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158[3]
It's true! Muslims are wrong about a whole lot of things!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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John 5
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Mankind's judge is Jesus( verse 22)

Jews that not believe Jesus, not believe Moses, or true God, because Moses is only wrote from God.
I agree that Jews do not believe in Jesus.

I am glad to wait for you to reach a decision about this verse, as to whether it is correctly translated
Romans 10: 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Looks like, then, that we disagree about coming to the father being the same as worshipping the true God.
1. Father is true God, so worship the Father is worship part of the true God, I say part because there are 2 more element of God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.
2. Now about coming to the Father.

Can you come to the Father but refused to worship the Father?

As you say when catholic say God, mean all element of God

So ccc 841 is Lie
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Related to the subject for talking about, it looks to me like there's a difference between worshipping the true God and being a true worshipper of the true God or coming to the father.
John 5
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

If one believe in Moses believe in Jesus.

Moses not the author of the bible, God is

So If you not believe in what Moses wrote you not believe in God

If you believe in Moses you believe in Jesus, because Moses wrote about jesus

Is that posible for a man that don't believe in God, worshiping God?

To me imposible

So ccc 841 is Lie
Muslim doesn't believe in Jesus but adore God

You say God only one and Jesus is one of the element of God isn't It?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I agree that Jews do not believe in Jesus.

I am glad to wait for you to reach a decision about this verse, as to whether it is correctly translated
Romans 10: 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Don't you say God is only one
Jesus is part of God, the Father is part of God Holy Spirit is Part of God

The word God must have those 3 element

True God must have 3 element or It is uncomplete God
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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1. Father is true God, so worship the Father is worship part of the true God, I say part because there are 2 more element of God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.
I'm not sure if Catholics would agree there. I think they are against dividing God into parts, though I'm not completely sure how this works.
"...neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. "
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed

2. Now about coming to the Father.

Can you come to the Father but refused to worship the Father?
No. However, I believe that is backwards from the question we were talking about.
I believe the question is:
Can you worship God without coming to the father?
I believe the answer is yes, as we see from the Samaritans and the Athenians, probably others in history, too.
As you say when catholic say God, mean all element of God
I'm not sure if we're communicating, there.
You may wish to take some time and look over the text of the athanasian Creed in the link above and see if your understanding of the Trinity is the same as the Catholic understanding.
So ccc 841 is Lie
That's one possible conclusion!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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John 5
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

If one believe in Moses believe in Jesus.

Moses not the author of the bible, God is
Makes sense so far, but we may wish to keep in mind that Jesus said that the Jews did not believe Moses.
Jesus says that
"We (Jews) worship what we know."
And that would be God, since Jesus includes himself in the "we".
So If you not believe in what Moses wrote you not believe in God
Here I believe you are mixing up the ideas of believing something and believing in something.
I can believe that Elizabeth is Queen of England. That is not the same as believing in Elizabeth, nor is it the same as believing in the British monarchy.

If you believe in Moses you believe in Jesus, because Moses wrote about jesus

Is that posible for a man that don't believe in God, worshiping God?

To me imposible
That's correct, it is impossible to worship God if you don't believe that God exists.
But I believe it is possible to believe that God exists, be very misinformed about God, and yet worship God in some fashion.

So ccc 841 is Lie
Muslim doesn't believe in Jesus but adore God

You say God only one and Jesus is one of the element of God isn't It?
Well, maybe if we can resolve language and theological issues will understand each other better!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Don't you say God is only one
Jesus is part of God, the Father is part of God Holy Spirit is Part of God

The word God must have those 3 element

True God must have 3 element or It is uncomplete God
No, I don't say that.

I think the Trinity is both really simple and impossible to grasp at the same time.

I believe Catholics say it is a mystery.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Navajo believe Eagle is God

Is navajo together with catholic adore the one merciful God, only wrong about God?
Possibly, possibly not.

the Navajo keep a lot of their religious ideas to themselves, so it's hard to say exactly what they are doing.

But it looks to me like they are falling into this error
Romans 1: 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things.

So the Muslims would be better off in that respect. As I understand it, they don't make images of God. (Classic Islamic art is just designs, from what I've seen.)

Don't get me wrong, Muslims are wrong about a lot of things! But making literal idols is something they don't do, I'm pretty sure.
 

Jackson123

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I'm not sure if Catholics would agree there. I think they are against dividing God into parts, though I'm not completely sure how this works.
So you believe worship Father also worship the Son?
 

Jackson123

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No. However, I believe that is backwards from the question we were talking about.
I believe the question is:
Can you worship God without coming to the father?
I believe the answer is yes, as we see from the Samaritans and the Athenians, probably others in history, too.
What is your definition of coming to the Father?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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You may wish to take some time and look over the text of the athanasian Creed in the link above and see if your understanding of the Trinity is the same as the Catholic understanding
I read about the link

Tha Father is God

The Son is God

The Holy Spirit is God

The Father not the Son and Not the Holy Spirit.

So If you say God, It can be Father, Son, Holy Spirit or all of them.

Ccc 841 do not say Father only so It mean all there

And islam not adore the Son as God, so ccc 841 is Lie
 

Jackson123

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Jackson
So If you not believe in what Moses wrote you not believe in God

Dan
Here I believe you are mixing up the ideas of believing something and believing in something.
I can believe that Elizabeth is Queen of England. That is not the same as believing in Elizabeth, nor is it the same as believing in the British monarchy.

Jackson

Jews not believe in what Moses wrote.

Moses wrote about God and Jesus

So jews do not believe about God and Jesus
 
Mar 28, 2016
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We may mean Christian since Paul say jews were ignorance or lack of knoledge about God.


What we know Seem refer to have full knowledge of God, not jews

It has nothing to do with the knowledge of natural man, a Jew.

Christian means; resident of a city prepared as His bride . Named after her husband the founder Christ.

Adding other meaning to the word then you destroy the intent of describing the one bride. .
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Jackson
So If you not believe in what Moses wrote you not believe in God

Dan
Here I believe you are mixing up the ideas of believing something and believing in something.
I can believe that Elizabeth is Queen of England. That is not the same as believing in Elizabeth, nor is it the same as believing in the British monarchy.

Jackson

Jews not believe in what Moses wrote.

Moses wrote about God and Jesus

So jews do not believe about God and Jesus
You seem confused somehow or other making it about corrupted flesh and blood .

Some Jews do beleive others do not. No different then the gentiles. Faith or no faith. No limbo in between. No purgatory after ; Here and now.