Catholicism vs Protestantism
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I think maybe that's where you're not understanding what they are saying. I never for a moment thought they were saying that all Muslims are saved.
I'm not sure how this works in Indonesian, but in English, we might say, "Walmart is where America shops."
That doesn't mean that every American shops at Walmart.
Or, "Included in the people who shop at Walmart are Latinos."
It doesn't mean that every Latino shops at Walmart.
True! And when a Muslim does believe that Jesus is God, they're no longer a Muslim!
I'm not sure how this works in Indonesian, but in English, we might say, "Walmart is where America shops."
That doesn't mean that every American shops at Walmart.
Or, "Included in the people who shop at Walmart are Latinos."
It doesn't mean that every Latino shops at Walmart.
True! And when a Muslim does believe that Jesus is God, they're no longer a Muslim!
Actually, I think it matters a great deal in the logic of the discussion we are having.
No, I think a person in that situation could choose to be Protestant and be saved. I think some Catholics would say that if you fully understand the Catholic Church, and refuse to participate and all of its sacraments, you cannot be saved. The logic is that Jesus set up the Catholic Church, so if you reject the Catholic Church, you reject Jesus. If you reject Jesus, you cannot be saved.
I don't think that's quite what they said.
I believe the quote is
"The plan of salvation also includes..."
My brother Jackson, your English is good. But do you really believe it is good enough for you to judge the grammar and syntax of the people who wrote the lumen gentium?
Is your car red all over? Is it both red and white?
Let's take a look at these sentences
Latinos shop at Walmart.
A few Latinos shop at Walmart.
Some Latinos shop at Walmart.
Most Latinos shop at Walmart.
All Latinos shop at Walmart.
Hopefully we can clear this up and come to a good understanding!
No, I think a person in that situation could choose to be Protestant and be saved. I think some Catholics would say that if you fully understand the Catholic Church, and refuse to participate and all of its sacraments, you cannot be saved. The logic is that Jesus set up the Catholic Church, so if you reject the Catholic Church, you reject Jesus. If you reject Jesus, you cannot be saved.
I don't think that's quite what they said.
I believe the quote is
"The plan of salvation also includes..."
My brother Jackson, your English is good. But do you really believe it is good enough for you to judge the grammar and syntax of the people who wrote the lumen gentium?
Is your car red all over? Is it both red and white?
Let's take a look at these sentences
Latinos shop at Walmart.
A few Latinos shop at Walmart.
Some Latinos shop at Walmart.
Most Latinos shop at Walmart.
All Latinos shop at Walmart.
Hopefully we can clear this up and come to a good understanding!
Did ccc841 say Muslim that never hear about Jesus ?
Don't you read the reason is lie,
Profess the faith of abraham, lie no 1
Together with us adore the one and mercifull god, lie number 2
27 Good. Why you keep saying ccc841 mean for those who never hear gospel?
So I'm pretty sure you know ccc 841 oppose the Bible.
Muslim in the plan of salvation mean there is salvation apart from Jesus
I am not say for some that never hear gospel
Don't you read the reason is lie,
Profess the faith of abraham, lie no 1
Together with us adore the one and mercifull god, lie number 2
27 Good. Why you keep saying ccc841 mean for those who never hear gospel?
So I'm pretty sure you know ccc 841 oppose the Bible.
Muslim in the plan of salvation mean there is salvation apart from Jesus
I am not say for some that never hear gospel
When a person is saved, they become a member of the church. Logically then, only members of the church are saved. There is only one Church.
Whether that one Church is led by that system of priests and bishops we often call "Catholic", I don't know. But I don't think that's something worth dividing over.
Whether that one Church is led by that system of priests and bishops we often call "Catholic", I don't know. But I don't think that's something worth dividing over.
As I understand it, Catholics don't have membership the way it's often done in Protestant churches.
Everyone who is baptized is a member of the church, the body of Christ. I believe that's the Catholic view.
Catholics also believe that baptism is the first sacrament that a person can partake of. Protestant baptisms count for that. If a person wants to participate in other sacraments administered by the priests and bishops, then the next step is to talk to a priest.
Everyone who is baptized is a member of the church, the body of Christ. I believe that's the Catholic view.
Catholics also believe that baptism is the first sacrament that a person can partake of. Protestant baptisms count for that. If a person wants to participate in other sacraments administered by the priests and bishops, then the next step is to talk to a priest.
I don't really agree or disagree. I figure if it's something we have to know, then God would tell us for sure.
There's a church close to where I live that teaches that a person must be baptized by full immersion in order to be saved. This is a common belief in Restoration Movement churches in this area (they often have a name like
Church of Christ
Or
Christian Church).
My wife grew up in that church. I have many wonderful Christian brothers and sisters there! I think they are probably wrong about the requirement of baptism by full immersion. But I don't think it's worth dividing over.
There's a church close to where I live that teaches that a person must be baptized by full immersion in order to be saved. This is a common belief in Restoration Movement churches in this area (they often have a name like
Church of Christ
Or
Christian Church).
My wife grew up in that church. I have many wonderful Christian brothers and sisters there! I think they are probably wrong about the requirement of baptism by full immersion. But I don't think it's worth dividing over.
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Since the word Muslim does not occur in the Bible, I don't think a person will find a biblical definition of Muslim.
"Abrahamic religion" doesn't mean that the people believe everything that the Bible says Abraham believed.
"The Abrahamic religions, also referred to collectively as Abrahamism, are a group of Semitic-originated religious communities of faith that claim descent from the Judaism of the ancient Israelites and the worship of the God of Abraham. The Abrahamic religions are monotheistic, with the term deriving from the patriarch Abraham (a major biblical figure from the Old Testament, who is recognized by Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others)."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions
Many Protestants will say things like, "Accept Jesus into your heart." Sometimes this is abbreviated to "Accept Jesus". But neither of those phrases are found in the Bible. Sometimes a pastor will encourage people to raise their hand to accept Jesus, or come forward to accept Jesus, or pray the sinner's prayer to ask Jesus into their heart. But I don't think any of these things are talked about in the scriptures. And Catholics definitely have a different approach.
I think that second statement is where your logic broke down. Some Muslims are saved. Or maybe better, some Muslims are on the path to salvation.
"Abrahamic religion" doesn't mean that the people believe everything that the Bible says Abraham believed.
"The Abrahamic religions, also referred to collectively as Abrahamism, are a group of Semitic-originated religious communities of faith that claim descent from the Judaism of the ancient Israelites and the worship of the God of Abraham. The Abrahamic religions are monotheistic, with the term deriving from the patriarch Abraham (a major biblical figure from the Old Testament, who is recognized by Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others)."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions
Many Protestants will say things like, "Accept Jesus into your heart." Sometimes this is abbreviated to "Accept Jesus". But neither of those phrases are found in the Bible. Sometimes a pastor will encourage people to raise their hand to accept Jesus, or come forward to accept Jesus, or pray the sinner's prayer to ask Jesus into their heart. But I don't think any of these things are talked about in the scriptures. And Catholics definitely have a different approach.
I think that second statement is where your logic broke down. Some Muslims are saved. Or maybe better, some Muslims are on the path to salvation.
It doesn't specify. But I understood it to refer to those who hadn't heard of the Gospel, based on previous exposure to Catholic teaching.
Do you remember the quote that I posted about the problem of using an isolated formulation?
The lumen gentium isn't intended to be read in isolation. And it is intended to be read in its entirety.
Similar situation with the CCC. I believe section 841 builds on the previous sections.
Similar situation with the Bible. Of course, you might not want to start reading the Bible from the beginning. But we definitely want to understand each part of the Bible in light of the whole Bible.
Sorry, I can't make sense out of that phrase.
Do you think they are saying that Muslims believe everything Abraham believed? I don't think they are saying that.
We talked about this in the past in reference to Jews. The issue is that if I say that only people who agree with me 100% about every aspect of God are worshiping the same God that I do, then only a few people are worshipping the same God that I do.
Because that's what I think it means. Imo, hearing the Quran is not the same as hearing the gospel.
I disagree that it opposes the Bible, though I'm sure it opposes some interpretations of the Bible.
I disagree, as I've tried to explain many times.
Sorry, I can't make sense out of that phrase.
Do you remember the quote that I posted about the problem of using an isolated formulation?
The lumen gentium isn't intended to be read in isolation. And it is intended to be read in its entirety.
Similar situation with the CCC. I believe section 841 builds on the previous sections.
Similar situation with the Bible. Of course, you might not want to start reading the Bible from the beginning. But we definitely want to understand each part of the Bible in light of the whole Bible.
Sorry, I can't make sense out of that phrase.
Do you think they are saying that Muslims believe everything Abraham believed? I don't think they are saying that.
We talked about this in the past in reference to Jews. The issue is that if I say that only people who agree with me 100% about every aspect of God are worshiping the same God that I do, then only a few people are worshipping the same God that I do.
Because that's what I think it means. Imo, hearing the Quran is not the same as hearing the gospel.
I disagree that it opposes the Bible, though I'm sure it opposes some interpretations of the Bible.
I disagree, as I've tried to explain many times.
Sorry, I can't make sense out of that phrase.
I just quoted the first part, because it looks to me like that's the part that you are misconstruing:
"The plan of salvation also includes…"
Myself, I probably wouldn't use a phrase like "The plan of salvation".
I think I would prefer something like "God is not far from any one of us".
What about Muslims? Well, I'd say that a person who agrees that there is a God who created heaven and earth has more truth than the atheist who says there is no God.
Let's consider the situation of the Greek poet quoted here
Acts 17: 28 'For in him we live, and move, and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.'
"The plan of salvation also includes…"
Myself, I probably wouldn't use a phrase like "The plan of salvation".
I think I would prefer something like "God is not far from any one of us".
What about Muslims? Well, I'd say that a person who agrees that there is a God who created heaven and earth has more truth than the atheist who says there is no God.
Let's consider the situation of the Greek poet quoted here
Acts 17: 28 'For in him we live, and move, and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.'
1. For walmart, it happen in Indonesia but if a country make a law, they use exact word
Christian save, is that mean all profess Christian save?
But real Christian save.
Muslim save, mean real Muslim save
You always say Muslim mean Muslim that never hear Jesus
Do you think the word Muslim mean Muslim that never hear Jesus?
In Indonesia or America the word Muslim do not mean Muslim that never hear about jesus
Christian save, is that mean all profess Christian save?
But real Christian save.
Muslim save, mean real Muslim save
You always say Muslim mean Muslim that never hear Jesus
Do you think the word Muslim mean Muslim that never hear Jesus?
In Indonesia or America the word Muslim do not mean Muslim that never hear about jesus
So you believe Protestant save, but is official catholic teaching believe Protestant that know about catholic but not partisipate in catholic sacrament save?
Also include Muslim
Doesn't say Muslim that never hear about catholic.
If one want to say people that never hear Jesus may save apart from Jesus than no need to,mention Muslim,
It state on ccc 841
Did ccc 841 A say Muslim that never hear Jesus may save or
B. Muslim in the plan of salvation .....profess the faith of abraham...?
Also include Muslim
Doesn't say Muslim that never hear about catholic.
If one want to say people that never hear Jesus may save apart from Jesus than no need to,mention Muslim,
It state on ccc 841
Did ccc 841 A say Muslim that never hear Jesus may save or
B. Muslim in the plan of salvation .....profess the faith of abraham...?
Hindu also believe there is creator, is Hindu save?
Muslim god is not the creator.
This is what Muslim god say
So in 18:90, Allah SWT says:
"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."
Christian god never say sun setting in the spring dark mud. If the sun come close to the earth, 10000 mile, the earth will burn
Muslim god think sun not bigger than a succer ball.
Muslim god is not the creator.
This is what Muslim god say
So in 18:90, Allah SWT says:
"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."
Christian god never say sun setting in the spring dark mud. If the sun come close to the earth, 10000 mile, the earth will burn
Muslim god think sun not bigger than a succer ball.
Jackson
Muslim in the plan of salvation mean there is salvation apart from Jesus
Dan
I disagree, as I've tried to explain many times.
Jackson
Muslim in the plan of salvation
Muslim don't believe Jesus is god
Salvation don't need to believe Jesus as god
Of course it may not apply for people that never hear gospel
Muslim in the plan of salvation mean there is salvation apart from Jesus
Dan
I disagree, as I've tried to explain many times.
Jackson
Muslim in the plan of salvation
Muslim don't believe Jesus is god
Salvation don't need to believe Jesus as god
Of course it may not apply for people that never hear gospel
I believe catholic try to build one world religion that is why she try to make them happy.
Vatican act like politician, lie
https://www.chick.com/battle-cry/article?id=Humble-New-Pope-Making-Firm-Push-for-One-World-Religion
Vatican act like politician, lie
https://www.chick.com/battle-cry/article?id=Humble-New-Pope-Making-Firm-Push-for-One-World-Religion